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AF 447 Thread No. 5

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AF 447 Thread No. 5

Old 29th Jul 2011, 18:38
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A quick, informal translation, that may help some of the non-French speakers here.

I'm a native French speaker and have a PPL, but have no further relevant qualifications, so caveat emptor.

2 h 10 min 06
PF: J’ai les commandes
I have the controls

2 h 10 min
PF: Ignition start
Ignition start

2 h 10 min 11
PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ?
What's that

2 h 10 min 14
PF: On n’a pas une bonne… On n’a pas une bonne annonce de…
We don't have a good... we don't have a good indication of ...

2 h 10 min 17
PNF: On a perdu les les les vitesses alors… engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust
We've lost the the the speeds so ... engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust

2 h 10 min 18
PF: … de vitesse
... of speed

2 h 10 min 22
PNF: Alternate law protections (law/low/lo)
Alternate law protections (law/low/lo)

2 h 10 min 24
PNF: Attends on est en train de perdre…
Wait we're losing...

2 h 10 min 25
PNF: Wing anti-ice
Wing anti-ice

2 h 10 min 27 to 2 h 10 min 31
PNF: Fais attention à ta vitesse Fais attention à ta vitesse
Watch your speed Watch your speed

PF: Okay, okay okay je redescends
ok ok ok I'm going back down

PNF: Tu stabilises
stabilize (could also be, you're stabilizing)

PF: Ouais
Yeaf

PNF: Tu redescends
You're going back down

2 h 10 min 33
PNF: Selon les trois tu montes donc tu redescends
According to the three you're going up, so you go back down

2 h 10 min 35
PF: D’accord
Agreed

2 h 10 min 36
PNF: T’es à ... Redescends
You're at ... go back down

PF: C’est parti on (re)descend
On our way we're going (back) down

2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46
PNF: Je te mets en en A T T
I'm putting you in in A T T

2 h 10 min 42
PF: On est en ouais on est en climb
We're in yeah we're in climb

2 h 10 min 49
PNF: (…) il est où euh ?
Uh, where is he?

2 h 10 min 56
PF: (TOGA)
(TOGA)

2 h 11
PNF: Surtout essaie de toucher le moins possible les commandes en en latéral hein
Above all, try to touch the controls as little as possible in in lateral, huh

2 h 11 min 03
PF: Je suis en TOGA hein
I'm in TOGA, huh

2 h 11 min 06
PNF: (…) il vient ou pas
Is he coming or not

2 h 11 min 21
PF: On a pourtant les moteurs qu’est-ce qui se passe (…) ?
We've got the engines after all. what's going on (...)?

2 h 11 min 32
PF: (…) je n’ai plus le contrôle de l’avion là J’ai plus du tout le contrôle de l’avion
I no longer have control of the plane; I no longer have any control at all of the plane

2 h 11 min 38
PNF: Commande à gauche
Controls to the left

2 h 11 min 41
PF: J’ai l’impression (qu’on a de) la vitesse
I have the impression (that we have) the speed

2 h 11 min 43
CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ?
Hey what are you doing?

PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passe
What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening

2 h 11 min 52
Alors tiens prends prends ça
So here take take that

2 h 11 min 58
PF: J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là
I have a problem it's that I no longer have the [vario] there
(not sure that "vario" is, here)

CAP: D’accord
OK

PF: J’ai plus aucune indication
I no longer have any indication

2 h 12 min 04 to 2 h 12 min 07
PF: J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou non qu’est-ce que vous en pensez ?
I have the impression that we have a crazy speed, no, what do you think of it?
(in this context, I believe "vitesse de fou" means "very high speed")

2 h 12 min 07
PNF: Non surtout ne ne (les) sors pas
No, definitely don't don't extend them
(literally, "don't take them out")

2 h 12 min 13
PNF: Qu’est-ce que tu en penses qu’est-ce que tu en penses, qu’est-ce qu’il faut faire ?
What do you think of it what do you think of it what do we have to do?

2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19
CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descends
I don't know we're going down

2 h 12 min 19 to 2 h 12 min 45
PF: Là c’est bon là on serait revenu les ailes à plat, non il veut (pas)
there that's good we'd be back to wings level, no he (doesn't) wan't to

CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secours
Wings level ... the horizon the backup horizon

PNF: L’horizon (segonde)
The horizon

2 h 12 min 26
PNF: La vitesse ?
The speed?

2 h 12 min 27
PNF: Tu montes ... Tu descends descends descends descends
You're going up ... you're going down go down go down go down

2 h 12 min 30
PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ?
Am I going down?

PNF: Descends
Go down

2 h 12 min 32
CAP: Non tu montes là
No you're going up, there

2 h 12 min 33
PF: Là je monte okay alors on descend
There I'm going up ok so we're going down (or could be "let's go down")

2 h 12 min 39
PF: Okay on est en TOGA
ok, we're in TOGA

2 h 12 min 42
PF: En alti on a quoi là ?
In alti[tude] we're at what, here?

2 h 12 min 44
CAP: (…) C’est pas possible
It's not possible

2 h 12 min 45
PF: En alti on a quoi ?
In alti[tude] we're at what ?

2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04
PNF: Comment ça en altitude ?
What do you mean in altitude?

PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ?
yeah yeah yeah i'm going down here, no?

PNF: Là tu descends oui
You're going down here, yes

CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontales
hey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level

PNF: Mets les ailes horizontales
Put the wings level

C’est ce que je cherche à faire
That's what I'm trying to do

CAP: Mets les ailes horizontales
Put the wings level

2 h 12 min 59
PF: Je suis à fond à… avec du gauchissement
I'm at the limit ... to the left

CAP: Le palonnier
Rudder pedals

2 h 13 min 25
PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là?
What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast?

2 h 13 min 28
PNF: Essaye de trouver ce que tu peux faire avec tes commandes là-haut Les primaires et cetera
Try to see what you can do with your controls up there. The primaries etc

2 h 13 min 32
PF: au niveau cent
At level 100

2 h 13 min 36
PF: Neuf mille pieds
9000 feet

2 h 13 min 38
CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier là
Easy with the rudder

2 h 13 min 39
PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte
Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up")

2 h 13 min 40
PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure
But I'm nose up to the limit since earlier

CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas
No no no don't climb back up

PNF: Alors descends
Go down, then

2 h 13 min 45
PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes
So give the me controls. The controls to me.

PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein
Go on, you have the controls. We're still in TOGA, ok

2 h 14 min 05
CAP: Attention tu cabres là
Watch it, you're pitching up

PNF: Je cabre ?
I'm pitching up?

PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds
Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet

2 h 14 min 18
CAP: Allez tire
Go on, pull

PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire
Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 18:47
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spagolia:

Painful reading.....

Thanks for the translation.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 18:49
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Cool

Hi,

Can someone with technical knowledge put some comment on the graphic from page 111 of the N°3 interim report
Comment about the differences of stick-and surfaces positions (elevators and trim)
Thank you.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 18:53
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I mentioned the lack of AOA indication a long time ago, seems the experts at the BEA agree.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 19:10
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I mentioned the lack of AOA indication a long time ago, seems the experts at the BEA agree.
Yes, and I suggested some stand alone examples of the types that could be retrofitted and engineered only to illuminate/indicate when the control laws degraded downwards.......

Tragic reading the transcript on post 939, tragic.

Last edited by glad rag; 29th Jul 2011 at 19:31.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 19:14
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H jcjeant.


From 02 10 15 the roll input is L & R (-8 to + 8) with little back stick.
From 02 10 45 to 02 11 30 the back stick varies between 0 and -10, at the same time the stab trim runs from -3 to -10.
From 02 11 30 onwards the back stick is held between full back (-30) to about half back but mostly full back; from 02 11 30 to 02 11 45 the stab trim runs to the limit -13 and remains there.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 19:24
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What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening
...
Am I going down?
...
No you're going up, there
...
yeah yeah yeah i'm going down here, no?
...
What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast?
...
9000 feet
...
Climb climb climb climb
...
But I'm nose up to the limit since earlier
...
Watch it, you're pitching up
...
Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet
....
Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling
...


Horrible, horrible reading. They had most of the clues between them but the committee decision didn't work out.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 19:52
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Ref #939 2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46
PNF: Je te mets en en A T T
I'm putting you in in A T T

I am putting you in ATT: That doesn't mean he switched the IRS to ATT, does it?
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 19:54
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Cool

Hi,

H jcjeant.


From 02 10 15 the roll input is L & R (-8 to + 8) with little back stick.
From 02 10 45 to 02 11 30 the back stick varies between 0 and -10, at the same time the stab trim runs from -3 to -10.
From 02 11 30 onwards the back stick is held between full back (-30) to about half back but mostly full back; from 02 11 30 to 02 11 45 the stab trim runs to the limit -13 and remains there.
Maybe I'm not enough smart for read a graphic ..
But I was requesting advise cause I see differences between the stick position and surfaces position in a corresponding time (discripancies) and I don't think it's can be caused by some hysteresis ...
I read some big movements of the stick .. and not corresponding movement of elevator (at same time)
Why this gap ? (at least is what I see in the graphic)
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:01
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bear, what it means to me is that what he's seeing doesn't make sense. You have instruments doing something unexpected or wrong, a scan breakdown, or both, or multiples of them.

What was he seeing? Apparently, not the same thing the PNF was seeing.

EDIT:

I just read the released (thanks for the translation) trail of discussion, spagiola.

My eyes are wet.

Oh, sweet Jesus.

EDIT 2:
Don't understand this
2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46
PNF: Je te mets en en A T T
I'm putting you in in A T T
I think I understand this
2 h 10 min 42
PF: On est en ouais on est en climb
We're in yeah we're in climb

2 h 10 min 49
PNF: (…) il est où euh ?
Uh, where is he?
PNF had already called for the captain.
He seems to have noticed things going pear shaped early, and called for help.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 29th Jul 2011 at 20:13.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:10
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Brevet de pilote de planeur obtenu en 2001

So, I guess the "They should make Gliding/PPL/Aerobatics... a requirement" is not the solution, people can still freeze or get it wrong without training/practice.
Such a pity, fear brings with it terrible tunnel vision, compared to the high you get when you get to do what you have trained to do.

I have to believe that the AoA indicator would have made the difference, particularly if it was part of the 'primitive' panel, i.e., these are real, WYSIWYG, no translation, no airspeed indication just a piece of tin that says "this is the way the wind blows" . Sad
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:13
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Hi Alber Ratman,
Originally Posted by Alber Ratman
I mentioned the lack of AOA indication a long time ago, seems the experts at the BEA agree.
Right, but one need to know how to use it. Nonetheless, it should not be so difficult to add them... but most companies don't want (need) them (this documentation below is from 1995).



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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:17
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Excellent translation except:

2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19
CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descends
I don't know we're going down

this in my view should be read as 2 separate statements made by the captain

CAP: Là je sais pas
That one I have no idea of

CAP: là ça descends
That one indicates a descent

Further on I keep seeing that the captain is trying to make sense of what are apparently continuously divergent readings.
He seems to be getting it right initially when he points to the emergency artificial horizon indicator but then starts doubting when apparently directed towards other attitude information which is in disagreement with that emergency artificial horizon:


The only stable reading not in dispute is the altitude (9000 feet not disputed), but other attitude readings seem to be in total disagreement
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:18
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Yes, painful.
It's been enlightening to read this thread, technicaly, and now, humanly.
Thanks to all of you.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:19
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Takata, thanks for the enlighting insight. Most companies might not feel the need for them. Do you believe that the regulators might think overwise now and with the functionallity of raw data if the main ADIRU's fall down?

PS Those instruments would have been showing +25 all the way down.

Last edited by Alber Ratman; 29th Jul 2011 at 20:29.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:29
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Birgenair transcript (English translation) - compare and contrast:

BirgenAir Accident - CVR Transcript
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:31
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Yes, Alber is right, the BEA did a serious job

I am reminded that some said that the BEA would never
1-seriously look for
2- Find
3- Read
the recorders, but actually after I put those folk on my ignore list I found the quality of the thread improved
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:51
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Originally Posted by vanHorck
CAP: Là je sais pas
That one I have no idea of
Could be airspeed.

CAP: là ça descends
That one indicates a descent
Could be altimeter.

Further on I keep seeing that the captain is trying to make sense of what are apparently continuously divergent readings.
He seems to be getting it right initially when he points to the emergency artificial horizon indicator but then starts doubting when apparently directed towards other attitude information which is in disagreement with that emergency artificial horizon:

The only stable reading not in dispute is the altitude (9000 feet not disputed), but other attitude readings seem to be in total disagreement
I read it slightly differently - remember he's come in having been woken up from trying to sleep. Unfortunately he never names the instruments he's describing (except when he tries to draw their attention to the horizon and standby horizon). I read it as him seeing them nose-high with TOGA power, trying to work out why the altitude is falling away, and then - sadly too late, he seems to realise, and tells his crew to put the nose down:

Originally Posted by spagiola
2 h 13 min 39
PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte
Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up")

2 h 13 min 40
PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure
But I'm nose up to the limit since earlier

CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas
No no no don't climb back up

PNF: Alors descends
Go down, then
At this point it's too late to do anything, but it appears that the Captain and PNF are finally aware of what's happened, unfortunately the PF doesn't seem to have been as quick on the uptake (understandably, as he'd been fighting the thing most of the way down) - and bizarrely, the Captain and PNF seem to agree...

2 h 13 min 45
PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes
So give the me controls. The controls to me.

PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein
Go on, you have the controls. We're still in TOGA, ok

2 h 14 min 05
CAP: Attention tu cabres là
Watch it, you're pitching up

PNF: Je cabre ?
I'm pitching up?

PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds
Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet

2 h 14 min 18
CAP: Allez tire
Go on, pull

PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire
Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling
Painful reading.
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Old 29th Jul 2011, 20:54
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To spagiola
I took the liberty to proof-read your very good translation and this is how it is :



I'm a native French speaker and have a PPL, but have no further relevant qualifications, so caveat emptor.

2 h 10 min 06
PF: J’ai les commandes
I have control

2 h 10 min
PF: Ignition start
Ignition start

2 h 10 min 11
PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ?
What's that ?

2 h 10 min 14
PF: On n’a pas une bonne… On n’a pas une bonne annonce de…
We don't have a good... we don't have a good indication of ...

2 h 10 min 17
PNF: On a perdu les les les vitesses alors… engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust
We've lost the the the speeds so ... engine thrust A T H R (off) engine lever thrust

2 h 10 min 18
PF: … de vitesse
... of speed

2 h 10 min 22
PNF: Alternate law protections
Alternate law protections

2 h 10 min 24
PNF: Attends on est en train de perdre…
Wait we're losing...

2 h 10 min 25
PNF: Wing anti-ice
Wing anti-ice

2 h 10 min 27 to 2 h 10 min 31
PNF: Fais attention à ta vitesse Fais attention à ta vitesse
Watch your speed Watch your speed

PF: Okay, okay okay je redescends
ok ok ok I'm going back down

PNF: Tu stabilises
stabilize (“stay there”)

PF: Ouais
Yeah

PNF: Tu redescends
You're going back down

2 h 10 min 33
PNF: Selon les trois tu montes donc tu redescends
According to the three you're going up, so you go back down (meaning the three vertical speed indicators... )

2 h 10 min 35
PF: D’accord
Agreed

2 h 10 min 36
PNF: T’es à ... Redescends
You're at ... go back down !

PF: C’est parti on (re)descend
On our way we're going (back) down

2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46
PNF: Je te mets en en A T T
I'm putting you in in A T T

2 h 10 min 42
PF: On est en ouais on est en climb
We're in yeah we're in climb

2 h 10 min 49
PNF: (…) il est où euh ?
Uh, where is he?

2 h 10 min 56
PF: (TOGA)
(TOGA)

2 h 11
PNF: Surtout essaie de toucher le moins possible les commandes en en latéral hein
Above all, try to touch the controls as little as possible in in lateral, hey ?!

2 h 11 min 03
PF: Je suis en TOGA hein ?
I'm in TOGA, no ?

2 h 11 min 06
PNF: (…) il vient ou pas
Is he coming or not ?

2 h 11 min 21
PF: On a pourtant les moteurs qu’est-ce qui se passe (…) ?
We've got the engines yet (nothing is happening...),. what's going on (...)?

2 h 11 min 32
PF: (…) je n’ai plus le contrôle de l’avion là J’ai plus du tout le contrôle de l’avion
I no longer have control of the plane; I no longer have any control at all of the plane

2 h 11 min 38
PNF: Commande à gauche
Controls to the left

2 h 11 min 41
PF: J’ai l’impression (qu’on a de) la vitesse
I have the impression (that we have) some speed

2 h 11 min 43
CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ?
Hey what are you doing?

PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passe
What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening

2 h 11 min 52
Alors tiens prends prends ça
So here take take that

2 h 11 min 58
PF: J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là
I have a problem it's that I no longer have vertical speed
CAP: D’accord
OK

PF: J’ai plus aucune indication
I no longer have any indication

2 h 12 min 04 to 2 h 12 min 07
PF: J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou non qu’est-ce que vous en pensez ?
I have the impression that we have some crazy speed, don’t we ?.. what do you think ?


2 h 12 min 07
PNF: Non surtout ne ne (les) sors pas
No, in any case, don't don't extend them


2 h 12 min 13
PNF: Qu’est-ce que tu en penses qu’est-ce que tu en penses, qu’est-ce qu’il faut faire ?
What do you think ?what do you think ? what do we have to do?

2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19
CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descend
I don't know we're going down

2 h 12 min 19 to 2 h 12 min 45
PF: Là c’est bon là on serait revenu les ailes à plat, non il veut (pas)
there ! that's good ! we'd be back to wings level, no he (doesn't) wan't to

CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secours
Wings level ... the horizon the backup horizon

PNF: L’horizon
The horizon

2 h 12 min 26
PNF: La vitesse ?
The speed?

2 h 12 min 27
PNF: Tu montes ... Tu descends descends descends descends
You're going up ... go down go down go down go down

2 h 12 min 30
PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ?
Am I going down?

PNF: Descend !
Go down

2 h 12 min 32
CAP: Non tu montes là
No you're going up, now

2 h 12 min 33
PF: Là je monte okay alors on descend
There I'm going up ok so let's go down

2 h 12 min 39
PF: Okay on est en TOGA
ok, we're in TOGA

2 h 12 min 42
PF: En alti on a quoi là ?
In alti[tude] we're at what, here?

2 h 12 min 44
CAP: (…) C’est pas possible
It's not possible

2 h 12 min 45
PF: En alti on a quoi ?
In alti[tude] we're at what ?

2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04
PNF: Comment ça en altitude ?
What do you mean in altitude?

PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ?
yeah yeah yeah i'm going down now, no?

PNF: Là tu descends oui
You're going down now, yes

CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontales
hey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level

PNF: Mets les ailes horizontales
Put the wings level

C’est ce que je cherche à faire
That's what I'm trying to do

CAP: Mets les ailes horizontales
Put the wings level

2 h 12 min 59
PF: Je suis à fond à… avec du gauchissement
I'm at the limit of the stick... to the left

CAP: Le palonnier
Rudder pedals

2 h 13 min 25
PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là?
What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast?

2 h 13 min 28
PNF: Essaye de trouver ce que tu peux faire avec tes commandes là-haut Les primaires et cetera
Try to see what you can do with your controls up there. The primaries etc

2 h 13 min 32
PF: au niveau cent
At level 100

2 h 13 min 36
PF: Neuf mille pieds
9000 feet

2 h 13 min 38
CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier là
Easy with the rudder

2 h 13 min 39
PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte
Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up")

2 h 13 min 40
PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure
But I've been pulling to the back stop for a good while

CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas
No no no don't climb back up

PNF: Alors descend
Go down, then

2 h 13 min 45
PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes
So give the me controls. I have control

PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein
Go on, you have control. We're still in TOGA, right ?

2 h 14 min 05
CAP: Attention tu cabres là
Watch it, you're pitching up

PNF: Je cabre ?
I'm pitching up?

PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds
Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet

2 h 14 min 18
CAP: Allez tire
Go on, pull

PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire
Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling !


For some reason, I lost the colors but you've cited the speakers.
Lemurian is offline  
Old 29th Jul 2011, 21:02
  #960 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Lonewolf,
Originally Posted by Lonewolf 50
2 h 10 min 49
PNF: (…) il est où euh ?
Uh, where is he?

PNF had already called for the captain.
He seems to have noticed things going pear shaped early, and called for help.
Be carefull (everybody) about the transcript meaning. It is better to wait for the English translation which will be painful to do (I guess it is the reason why they are late on it).
French talk (especially in high stress context) is using a lot of undefined terms; here, "il est où" could mean "where it is?" or "where he is?". In context, I understand that something is missing on his pannel (like Flight Director, or another indication he was looking at that disapeared) rather than "someone" -the captain.
A lot of these sentences are completely meaningless without the tone -might be interrogative, or talking to one or to the other or to himself or even to the aircraft.
Following the conversation with notes about the context in other columns add a lot to the understanding.

Now, I understand also why the BEA would like to have the whole scene with all pannels filmed as many things said all along are related to instruments and very hard to guess what it was exactly.
Vario = variomètre = V/S indicator. The PF lost it at one point.

It is a work in progress. Much more will be added but we'll have to wait for the first quarter of 2012, when they will finish their job.
takata is offline  

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