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AF 447 Search to resume (part2)

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AF 447 Search to resume (part2)

Old 5th May 2011, 11:53
  #721 (permalink)  
 
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Caractéristiques

La Capricieuse does not need refueling!
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Old 5th May 2011, 11:57
  #722 (permalink)  
 
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Merci for correcting my error.

From the AP:
A statement from the French Gendarmerie, which has experts on the recovery boat, says that the body was pulled up Thursday morning. Recovering the remains, still attached to the plane seat, involved great technical difficulty, and it's unclear if all bodies found in the latest search can be recovered.
I wouldn't think it would be difficult to identify bodies either through dental records, or teeth DNA.

Quantification of forensic DNA from various region... [J Forensic Sci. 2003] - PubMed result
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Old 5th May 2011, 12:31
  #723 (permalink)  
 
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Saturn

Does this say something about the current state of the French Navy that it could not spare a frigate for this phase of the operation...
It says they dispatched the nearest available boat, "La Capricieuse", from her homeport in French Guyana.

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Old 5th May 2011, 12:37
  #724 (permalink)  
 
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There sure seems a lack of urgency to transport the recorders to where they can be read.
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Old 5th May 2011, 12:40
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Refueling

Saturn V

If she cannot make the roundtrip w/o refueling in Brazil, it's probably better to do it before the recorders are onboard.
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Old 5th May 2011, 12:42
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insufficient range to reach the site without refueling in Brazil
La Capricieuse autonomy: 4500 nm @ 14.5 kt.
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Old 5th May 2011, 12:44
  #727 (permalink)  

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Does this say something about the current state of the French Navy that it could not spare a frigate for this phase of the operation, so the government has to rely on a Marine Nationale (Coast Guard) patrol boat that apparently has insufficient range to reach the site without refueling in Brazil?
It's the position of the boat that counts.The nearest one was "la Capricieuse", based in Cayenne;
Those escort / patrol boats were designed for missions in the French EEZ (Economic exclusion zone) off the coasts of the overseas territories (DOM-TOM)
I do not know the reason for the stop over at a Brazilian port but that class has a range of some 5000 Nm, more than enough to join the site to Cayenne.
No, we ain't broke yet...
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Old 5th May 2011, 12:49
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If she is to stop at a brazilian port, maybe it's for a "diplomatic" visit.
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Old 5th May 2011, 13:28
  #729 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks again to the experts on the Marine Nationale.

With more than sufficient range, I can think of two reasons for stopping in Brazil: 1.) board Brazilian officials who may still retain some jurisdiction with regard to the bodies?, or 2.) bring aboard equipment (refrigeration, freezing) for the Ile de Sein to help preserve the bodies before they are transported.
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Old 5th May 2011, 13:29
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Graybeard

There sure seems a lack of urgency to transport the recorders to where they can be read

I was thinking exactly the same. I would be interested to know why it will take another week. Maybe they want to recover everything they need for the investigation first. Recovering bodies? I do not think that is a good idea, even if the relatives want that done. Too difficult and too traumatic for the recovery personnel.
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Old 5th May 2011, 13:44
  #731 (permalink)  
 
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BEA to investigate failure to detect pingers

This article discusses BEA's intent to study the reasons for not detecting the pingers in 2009. It also contains an initial comment from Honeywell.

BEA to examine why acoustic sweep missed AF447 recorders
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Old 5th May 2011, 13:56
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Various traductions

"Le Figaro" 14APR
Plusieurs dizaines de corps seraient présents, par 4000 mètres de fond, parmi les débris de l'avion.


C'est le sujet qui gêne les enquêteurs. Selon nos informations, «plusieurs dizaines de corps» auraient été photographiés début avril à l'intérieur de l'appareil. La plupart seraient encore attachés à leur siège, par 4000 mètres de fond. Certains seraient encore remarquablement bien conservés, deux ans après le drame, et d'autres le seraient beaucoup moins. Les vêtements encore intacts ne permettraient pas de se faire une idée précise de l'état de toutes les victimes.
Conséquences psychologiques

Les proches de l'enquête interrogés par Le Figaro rivalisent de prudence sur le sujet. Au lendemain de la découverte de l'épave, Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, ministre de l'Écologie et des Transports, avait annoncé sur France Inter la présence de corps et évoqué la question de leur remontée en surface. «Cette annonce a été faite sans concertation, sans étude de la faisabilité de l'opération et sans avoir préalablement prévenu toutes les familles», tempère-t-on dans le milieu de l'enquête. Le projet de repêcher les corps ne serait pas non plus dans les priorités du Bureau d'enquêtes et d'analyse (BEA). «Les victimes ne sont pas le sujet du BEA, indique un membre de l'enquête. Son sujet prioritaire, ce sont les milliers d'avions qui volent tous les jours et l'enquête sur un accident dont il faut découvrir les causes pour faire progresser la sécurité. Tous les marins savent qu'on ne touche jamais à une sépulture marine: on aurait dû expliquer cela aux familles.»

Une opération de repêchage devrait être toutefois tentée et une cellule d'identification des victimes sera embarquée sur le navire Ile de Sein. Mais sans garantie de résultat. Les enquêteurs craignent que les corps ne résistent pas à la manipulation, puis à la remontée dans les eaux chaudes de l'Atlantique Sud et enfin à leur sortie à l'air libre qui pourrait provoquer une corrosion brutale. Dans l'encadrement de l'opération, on appréhende également les conséquences psychologiques de l'opération pour les personnes présentes à bord: «Après Charm el-Cheikh, des agents ont eu besoin de six mois de soutien psychologique», confie un cadre impliqué dans l'opération. Autre difficulté: les désirs contradictoires des familles de victimes. Certaines souhaitent en effet que les corps de leurs proches restent dans l'océan tandis que d'autres souhaitent les récupérer pour leur offrir une sépulture. Face à ce débat, l'État a tranché: «Des tentatives seront menées pour remonter des corps des victimes afin de répondre aux obligations de l'enquête judiciaire. S'il s'avère possible de les remonter, ils seront identifiés en France et restitués à leurs familles au plus vite.»


"Le Figaro" 14APR
Dozens of bodies would be present at 4000 meters depth amongst debris of the plane

"This is the subject that is embarrassing investigators. According to our informations, "dozens of bodies" were photographed in early April inside the aircraft. Most are still attached to their seats by 4000 meters depth. Some would be still remarkably well preserved, two years after the tragedy, and others would be much less. Clothes still intact would not allow to get a precise idea of the state of all victims.

Psychological consequences:

People close of the inquiry interviewed by Le Figaro are extremely cautious on the subject. After the discovery of the wreckage, Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, Minister of Ecology and Transportation, announced on France Inter (French Radio) the presence of bodies and mentioned the possibility of their raising. "This announcement was made without consultation, without studying the feasibility of the operation and without having first notified all the families," one is moderating among the investigators. The proposal of raising the bodies would not be in the priorities of the BEA. "Victims are not the subject of BEA, said a member of the investigation. His priority matter are the thousands of airplanes flying every day and the investigation about an accident and its causes to improve safety. All sailors know that you never touch a sea burial: one should have explained that to the families. "

A raising operation should be attempted, however, and a cell identification of victims will be on board the ship Ile de Sein. But without guaranteed results. Investigators fear that the bodies might not stand the handling, and subsequent raising in warmer waters of the South Atlantic and finally the open air that could cause brutal corrosion. The managers of the operation, also fears the psychological consequences of the operation for the people in charge: "After Sharm el-Sheikh, some staff needed six months of psychological cares.
Another difficulty is the conflicting desires of the families of victims. Some indeed wish that the bodies of their relatives remain in the ocean while others want them back to give them a burial. Given this debate, the State has decided: "Attempts will be conducted to raise the bodies of victims to meet the obligations of the judicial inquiry. If it is possible to raise them, they will be identified in France and returned to their families as soon as possible."



"Le Figaro" 03MAY

.../...
La rupture des scellés se fera en présence d'un officier de police judiciaire. Ensuite, les cartes mémoire seront extraites de la boîte de couleur orange, nettoyées ainsi qu'asséchées. S'ils ne sont pas endommagés, les enregistrements seront exploitables quasi instantanément. Les bandes seront lues au moyen d'un magnétoscope et les cartes mémoire exploitées sur un châssis prévu à cet effet. En cas de corrosion ou de détérioration, le travail de restauration et d'exploitation des parties encore en état peut prendre davantage de temps.

Lors du crash de Perpignan (novembre 2008), les boîtes noires avaient ainsi dû être exploitées aux États-Unis chez leur constructeur Honeywell. Enfin, la dernière étape est celle de l'analyse des données proprement dites. «En quelques heures, on saura en gros ce qui s'est passé, explique un proche de l'enquête. L'analyse plus fine ainsi que la rédaction du rapport prendront en revanche plusieurs mois.» L'AF 447 pourrait donc livrer son secret à la fin du mois.

.../... (when at the BEA office at Le Bourget)

The breaking of the seals will be attended by a judiciary police officer. Then the memory cards will be extracted from the orange box, cleaned and dried. If they are not damaged, the records will be usable almost instantaneously. The bands will be read through a VCR (sic) and memory cards used on a chassis designed for this purpose. In case of corrosion or damage, restoration work and operation of preserved parts may take more time.
As an example, in the crash of Perpignan (November 2008), the black boxes had to be exploited in the United States by their manufacturer Honeywell. The final step is the analysis of data itself. "Within hours we will know basically what happened, says one close to the investigation. A more detailed analysis and report writing will take however many months. "The AF 447 could deliver his secret at the end of the month.




" Le Figaro" 05MAY
Des analyses ADN vont être pratiquées pour tenter d'identifier la victime, qui reposait par près de 4000 mètres de fond.


Un premier corps d'une victime du crash du vol Rio-Paris d'Air France a été repêché jeudi du fond de l'Atlantique, 24 heures après le début des opérations. «La dépouille, toujours attachée sur un siège de l'aéronef, apparaît dégradée», indique la direction générale de la gendarmerie nationale (DGGN). Des prélèvements ADN vont être effectués pour tenter d'identifier la victime.
.../...

DNA analysis will be performed to try to identify the victim, who lay by nearly 4000 meters.


A first body of a victim of the Air France Rio-Paris flight was recovered Thursday from the bottom of the Atlantic, 24 hours after the start of operations. "The body, still attached to a seat of the aircraft, appears degraded, " said the General Directorate of Gendarmerie (DGGN). DNA samplings will be performed to try to identify the victim.
.../...
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Old 5th May 2011, 13:58
  #733 (permalink)  

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There sure seems a lack of urgency to transport the recorders to where they can be read.
What's the rush ? After all, we've been waiting for nearly two years, during which time all sorts of conspiracy theories have been launched.
The procedure had been announced even before the retrieval of the DFDR.
The presence of "Officers of the Law" has been explained and graphically pictured when the gendarmes performed the safe-keeping, recording and sealing procedure of the recorder containers.
Every phase of the recovery has been recorded / videoed and so far, nobody, except the Gendamerie officers ( acting here as appointed "officers of the law") has touched them.The video of that procedure,to me, in spite of the tragic set-up, was quite comical as the two BEA investigators there were visibly dying to lay their hands on the data !!
The idea is that the recorders will never leave official surveillance.
I'm curious as to the airplane that will fly them to Le Bourget. Will it be one of the Gael planes ?
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Old 5th May 2011, 14:06
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This article discusses BEA's intent to study the reasons for not detecting the pingers in 2009. It also contains an initial comment from Honeywell.
and this ids the Honeywell part :
Although the beacon and memory cylinder of the data recorder separated from the device's chassis, manufacturer Honeywell said it is not looking at amending the design, pointing out that it meets regulatory and OEM requirements.
That's a funny statement as, as far as we are concerned :the most likely culprits are the Pitot probes, which also "met regulatory requirements, i.e. certification criteria, but still failed.
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Old 5th May 2011, 14:14
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In an earlier PR describing the recorder offloading procedure, it was noted that France was concerned that the Brazilian government may impound or restrict the movement of the recorders if they were taken to Brazilian territory.

The fueling of the French patrol boat in Brazil prior to it beginning the trek to the recovery site may be a precaution to give it enough fuel to make it to the recovery site and then direct Guiana.

I hope they are planning on flying the boxes on two different flights to be conservative.
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Old 5th May 2011, 14:16
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Refueling

La Capricieuse dont need refueling!!

La Capricieuse (P 684)
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Old 5th May 2011, 14:17
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Originally Posted by snowfalcon2
I don't really understand this fuss about independent power supply.
Here is what the report mentioned :
Although the loss of flight recorder information for the last 19 minutes of the engines-out descent and landing on this occurrence did not adversely affect the investigation to this occurrence, had the circumstances been different, the lack of data following the power loss on both engines could have severely affected the ability of the investigation to make findings as to the causes and contributing factors to this occurrence.

Originally Posted by PJ2
The only suggestion of independent power supply that has emerged was after SR111 and that was the voice recorder.
It is not the only one, the Portuguese had also made an explicit recommendation :

SAFETY RECOMMENDATION AJ/2004
Therefore, it is recommended that the European Organization for Civil Aviation Equipment, ICAO, all civil aviation authorities and safety investigation authorities:
• Take into account the circumstances of this particular occurrence in their deliberations on the requirements for independent power supplies for on-board aircraft recordings.

As a matter of fact, I can now read from the FCOM :
The recording system is automatically active in flight (whether the engines are running or not).

Although this does not seem to apply to the CVR which will powered only if the emergency generator is supplied by the engine hydraulic pumps ...
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Old 5th May 2011, 15:15
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Hi,

Originally Posted by CONF iture
Here is what the report mentioned :
Although the loss of flight recorder information for the last 19 minutes of the engines-out descent and landing on this occurrence did not adversely affect the investigation to this occurrence, had the circumstances been different, the lack of data following the power loss on both engines could have severely affected the ability of the investigation to make findings as to the causes and contributing factors to this occurrence.
Actually, it is one of my worst fear after the successful recovery of both recorders; I was very confident that they would never give up and finally succeed at finding the wreckage. On the other hand, we are all obviously expecting that everything will be recorded up to the end of the flight... while this voice data recording may be stopped quite some time before she crashed (several minutes before impact), then we will be left with many speculations about what happened next inside this cockpit.

I'm 95% sure that there was no direct stall down from 35,000 fts and that she was not crashed at the end of the ACARS sequence.

Can someone explain how an aircraft may stall during five minutes from altitude without, at some early point, its engine stalling as well?

In a situation where the airfoil was compromised to the point that this airframe could not generate enough lift anymore, why would the airfoil be ok for its powerplants compressors?
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Old 5th May 2011, 16:10
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Takata - Engines run on the ground or in testbeds without airspeed, wouldn't a modern FADEC with sensitive surge protection managing fuel flow maintain operation even where there is not enough air massflow/density to attempt re-light? And if engines not stalled at altitude why would they with increasing air density below 6000ft?

Previous posts suggest rate of fall fully stalled would be much greater than 6000ft/min, so a single event would have to have started later/higher, but could still end 2:14:30.

[edit: deleted ref to RAT, its the APU thats been seen]

Last edited by sensor_validation; 5th May 2011 at 17:37.
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Old 5th May 2011, 16:14
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For those of you not au fait with shipping, most Warships have a minimum fuel level they are not allowed to go below, which tends to be a significant percentage of their capacity. They also tend to refuel from tanker assets at sea if at all possible. Looking at range/economy figures in this instance may be misleading.
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