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AF 447 Search to resume (part2)

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AF 447 Search to resume (part2)

Old 6th May 2011, 19:00
  #801 (permalink)  
 
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Takata
Maybe you should first ask yourself what kind of "source" was used in this "report" you read. "Skeletal" doesn't fit with most leaked informations (from family members) about the curent state of the victims.

I read it on the BBC website yesterday. (no translation required)

Skeletal = emaciated, having the character of a skeleton.

If the report is incorrect, then it is not my fault.
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Old 6th May 2011, 19:30
  #802 (permalink)  
 
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Brazilians

Hi Bearfoil,
Originally Posted by Bearfoil
Skeletal
I could bring up something I wrote earlier in the thread. "Flail" injuries, 200 knot impact, and chaotic cabin contents suggest a type of injury that is consistent with extreme trauma, and would prompt a rescuer to describe "skeletal" (bone exposed) trauma. Degloving. Originally, when considering ejection at altitude and great velocity, I thought degloving was a way to describe what Brazilians may have sussed as "Skeletal" (Flail). Just because one considers skeletal remains as being the result of decomposition, does not make it so. Osmotics and decomposition of connective tissue due breakdown of protein does not require bacteriostatic action necessarily.
Degloving reported by Brazilians?
Well, you should check by yourself what the NYT journalist lately wrote from a Brazilian forensic analyst source who presided on victim's indentification work (but not from the Brazilian tabloid's writtings):

Originally Posted by NYT -By WIL S. HYLTON- Published: May 4, 2011
On a Sunday morning in mid-March, I met with Dr. Francisco Sarmento, the doctor who presided over the Flight 447 autopsies. This turned out to be a strange time to visit. Two days before I met with Sarmento, the morgue where the autopsies took place was shut down by inspectors, citing “blood on the walls,” “corpses stored on top of each other on shelves and on the floor,” “a strong stench of putrefaction” and a parade of other horrors, like a corpse “being dragged across the floor by two employees.” (The morgue has since reopened.

Sarmento’s office in Recife turned out to be only somewhat more presentable. The floors were made of thin plastic that sagged under my feet as I walked, and the exterior windows were so heavily barred that it was difficult to see outside, but the tropical heat blasted in where panes were either broken or missing, giving the effect of a giant air-conditioner in reverse. It was easy to imagine that such a place, an underfinanced facility in a poor part of the world, might have trouble maintaining standards.

Sarmento is a big man, 6-foot-2 and slightly hunched, with a sad, doughy face all gathered up in worry. The crisis at the morgue had kept him from sleep, and he smiled wearily as he offered his hand. We took our seats by a table in his office, and he began to explain the crisis from two years earlier, with the fall of Flight 447.

“When we first found out, we were afraid,” he said. “We didn’t have space for 228 bodies. There were 33 nationalities on board, so we had to cooperate with other countries. We needed fingerprints, dental records, pictures of tattoos. We contacted Interpol right away, and they sent two people to work here and make the connection with other countries.”
Now Sarmento held up a finger with a look of irritation. “After one week,” he said, “the French government called and asked to send a representative to observe the autopsies.” Much of the forensic work took place at another site, but final examinations of the bodies were done in Recife. “When they got here,” Sarmento continued, “it was 20 specialists who wanted to do the autopsies by themselves. Only them. We couldn’t allow that. So I allowed one person from Interpol to be in the autopsy room and one person from the French government. Of course, this became a diplomatic issue.”

He reached for a large projector on the table and flipped it on with a hum. The far wall lighted up, and we began viewing images from the autopsies. “We took pictures of everything,” Sarmento said, scrolling through pictures of watches, necklaces, earrings and rings, still clinging to blue-green wrists and necks. “We were able to make all of the identifications.” As the images flashed by, he added: “All the autopsies were observed by the French and by Interpol. Not one country, not one family, complained about the identifications.”

After a while, Sarmento flipped off the projector and pushed away from the table in his chair. “Ninety percent of the passengers had fractures in the arms and legs,” he said. “Many of them also had trauma in the chest, in the abdomen, in the cranium. We didn’t find anybody burned.” He leaned forward in his seat and wrapped his arms around his knees. “They were like this,” he said, holding the crash position and looking into my eyes. Then he sat up quickly and held his hand flat above the table. “When they hit,” he said, slamming it down, “fractures. I believe the pilot tried to land in the water. This is consistent with the fractures. But when the bodies arrived, the lungs were already in a state of decomposition. We didn’t have conditions to see if anyone drowned.”

This hung in the air for a moment as I considered what he was suggesting.
“So it’s possible that some of them were still alive?” I asked.

Sarmento nodded. “Most died on impact,” he said. “Some could have survived.”
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/ma...ewanted=1&_r=2

It doesn't really fit with your "Flail" injuries, 200 knot impact"...

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Old 6th May 2011, 19:49
  #803 (permalink)  
 
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@ bearfoil

Skeletal
I think the answer to your question is more to do with scavengers....

Bathypelagic Zone - 1000 m down to 4000m
A surprisingly large number of creatures are to be found in this region -.
even Sperm whales have been known to reach depths of 3000m.

Abyssopelagic Zone - 4000m to 6000m
Basket stars, small squids, starfish, shrimp, Grimpoteuthis, etc


Life at these depths is adapted to survive on whatever descends from
the surface - usually at the end of a life cycle.
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Old 6th May 2011, 20:17
  #804 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NY Times
After a while, Sarmento flipped off the projector and pushed away from the table in his chair. “Ninety percent of the passengers had fractures in the arms and legs,” he said. “Many of them also had trauma in the chest, in the abdomen, in the cranium. We didn’t find anybody burned.”
Originally Posted by takata
It doesn't really fit with your "Flail" injuries, 200 knot impact"...
Think you probably need to google flail injuries (or similar). Seems perfectly consistent to me (says someone lucky enough to have survived flail chest and a catalogue of other injuries in a high-speed smash nine months ago).
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Old 6th May 2011, 20:37
  #805 (permalink)  
 
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bearfoil,

riginally, when considering ejection at altitude and great velocity, I thought degloving was a way to describe what Brazilians may have sussed as "Skeletal" (Flail).
Could you please give us a reference?

The brazilian forensic pathologists that examined the corpses retrieved from the sea said, to my knowledge, that there were a lot of fractures. But didn´t talk about "skeletal".

This is a video about this phase of the investigation, but unfortunately in portuguese only:

Perícia: vítimas estavam sentadas na queda do Airbus - Especiais - Vídeos de Notícias - TerraTV
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Old 6th May 2011, 20:44
  #806 (permalink)  
bearfoil
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takata

bonjour. As above, I thought there may be degloving due impact or abrasive trauma within the cabin. Excessive compression followed by displacement (rapid) of soft tissue can cause it to slough off its supporting structure(s), mainly bone(s). If one was to smack something with one's arm at 200 knots, or 150, etc. likely the tissue would rupture and expose the skeletal structure beneath. This can happen merely due to g forces, without contact with a foreign object. At some acceleration, soft tissue will leave its substrate. We are entertaining 200g here, I think, more than sufficient.

merci.

Centrosphere

I could direct you to MedLine or other, but allow me to retract my reference to degloving. It is likely a dead end, and probs just a distraction.

cheers.
 
Old 6th May 2011, 20:48
  #807 (permalink)  
 
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Just a small detail: Flail chest injury used to be common in car frontal collisions during times when seat belts were not in use. It happened when the body was thrown against the steering wheel and was characterized by rib fractures on both sides so that the front part of chest got "loose" and breathing got very difficult.
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Old 6th May 2011, 21:48
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I don't recall reading that any passengers had life vests on. In fact, I don't recall any vests being recovered as part of the surface debris.

It would seem that the passengers either had no advance warning of the ditching, or they were unable to get to the vests because of g forces or something else ?

If they were in a crash position, at impact, they must have had some amount of advance warning of a ditching.

It seems odd that not one passenger out of the couple of hundred+ would not successfully locate a vest given the ability and time to do so.

It is possible there are some corpses with uninflated vests on in the undersea wreckage but no information of that sort has come to light.
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Old 6th May 2011, 21:49
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Cool

Hi,


Code:
http://williammariotto.********.com/2009/06/autopsia-dos-corpos-do-acidente-revela.html
Change ******** to b l o g s p o t (no spaces)
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Old 6th May 2011, 21:50
  #810 (permalink)  
 
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French media are reporting that a second body (skeletal or not) has been raised to the surface today.
"Boxes" should be at Cayenne on Tuesday 10MAY.Therefore, if it is technically possible, recorders could be conveyed O/B AF3507, schedules to depart at 17h50LT Tu (UTC-3) and to arrive at Orly at 0720LT /0520z +1 We. There are two flights the following day : AF3507 and TX571, departure time 19h05 (22h05z) arrival 0840LT (06h40z)+1 Th.
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Old 6th May 2011, 21:53
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Let's hope the flights to Orly avoid those build ups in the equatorial region.


T'would be sadly ironic in the extreme for those boxes to fall, yet again, into sea when they were supposed to get to Paris on time ...
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:23
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According to comments from the Brazilian rescue team, most of the 50 bodies recovered had no clothes on.
This was confirmed by forensics held in Brazil.

If this is true, what kind of wind (or water) velocity can tear clothes off ?

If the plane hit the water "intact", the force of the water entering the a/c after it broke up would be strong enough to rip off their clothes ?

I can't imagine why people would lie about this. And both rescue and forensic teams had no contact with each other.

Brazilian press did not published many details about the condition of the bodies (maybe in respect for the families), so this (no clothes on) issue was not discussed in detail, and I can understand why.

If this matter had already been discussed here, I'm sorry...
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:52
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The BBC also reports that a second body was retrieved today, still strapped to the seat, 'in difficult conditions'. The report quoting French officials as their source.
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:54
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Hi,
Originally Posted by fyrefli
Think you probably need to google flail injuries (or similar). Seems perfectly consistent to me (says someone lucky enough to have survived flail chest and a catalogue of other injuries in a high-speed smash nine months ago)
Sorry about the misunderstanding, but my point was to address the "Brazilian + degloving" part comment of Bearfoil's post, not the "flail chest injuries"... hence those three dots for not repeating myself.

Nowaday, I posted this interview in order to correct some rumors about those supposed "Brazilians leaks" (from press) as I'm not sure if this analysis is really that meaningfull inside this crash context (the "survivability" and "brace for impact" comment may seem a bit overstretched). I'm still waiting for any relevant forensic aircrash specialists comments to be published about it.

Nonetheless, the lack of cabin "preparation" for ditching doesn't mean anything about an unlikely last minute attempt to ditch it. No life jackets used or even the recovery of those empty cabin crew seats doesn't rule it out.

One may look at Sullenberger's case and notice that communication with the cabin was barely nil until the last seconds of the flight before ditching, even if the decision to ditch in the Hudson was already taken a few minutes earlier. It seems that no passenger ever had enough time to find and wear its life jacket when the "brace for impact" order came from the captain's call. The crew workload in dealing (incompletely) with those checklists and flying the aircraft prevented it.

In AF447 case, three out of the nine FA cabin crew should have been resting in the dedicated FA module - hence, it is possible to have free FA seats in the cabin. It is not even sure that the cockpit-cabin interphone could have been operated from the cockpit in case of EMER ELEC or that pilots were not already full hands with their attempt to keep it flying - like trying to relight their engines.

In fact, ditching could have been an option in the Hudson, but I don't think it was contemplated in the middle of the Atlantic ocean until the very last seconds, if they were running out of sky and speed.
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:56
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Originally Posted by Rob21 View Post
According to comments from the Brazilian rescue team, most of the 50 bodies recovered had no clothes on.
This was confirmed by forensics held in Brazil.

If this is true, what kind of wind (or water) velocity can tear clothes off ?
I believe wave action is known to remove clothing, as well as decompression - the recovered bodies were floating for considerable time.

Water in-rush on impact might also do it

As would decompression and ejection at altitude - but other evidence points away from that. Hopefully the data from the boxes will give us definitive answer soon
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Old 6th May 2011, 23:08
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Originally Posted by Rob21
According to comments from the Brazilian rescue team, most of the 50 bodies recovered had no clothes on.
This was confirmed by forensics held in Brazil.

If this is true, what kind of wind (or water) velocity can tear clothes off ?
Rumors again, but clothed dead people left to derive for days at sea will lose all their clothes at one point or another, whatever was the initial crash impact.
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Old 6th May 2011, 23:14
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Originally Posted by takata View Post
Hi,
One may look at Sullenberger's case and notice that communication with the cabin was barely nil until the last seconds of the flight before ditching, even if the decision to ditch in the Hudson was already taken a few minutes earlier. It seems that no passenger ever had enough time to find and wear its life jacket when the "brace for impact" order came from the captain's call.
In fact, very few of them (6% according to the report) had life jackets even when they had evacuated out onto the wings, over half managed to grab a seat cushion though... Who knows why - they were very lucky though as a result, the Hudson is not a very benign swimming environment at that time of year

I agree though - lack of lifejackets on doesn't indicate anything much about preparedness for anything

In fact, ditching could have been an option in the Hudson, but I don't think it was contemplated in the middle of the Atlantic ocean until the very last seconds, if they were running out of sky and speed.
I doubt ditching was contemplated - deciding to ditch implies some semblance of controlled flight, of which there is no evidence. They had speed to the end - just not forwards.
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Old 6th May 2011, 23:20
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Originally Posted by infrequentflyer789
In fact, very few of them (6% according to the report) had life jackets even when they had evacuated out onto the wings, over half managed to grab a seat cushion though... Who knows why - they were very lucky though as a result, the Hudson is not a very benign swimming environment at that time of year.
Reading the report and timming, it was obvious that they took their survival stuff only once ditched. Nobody in the cabin was supposed to be aware that they will end in the water... and it was certainly not easy to figure it out in the "brace for impact" position.

Originally Posted by infrequentflyer789
I doubt ditching was contemplated - deciding to ditch implies some semblance of controlled flight, of which there is no evidence. They had speed to the end - just not forwards.
Lack of forward speed (engines?), but controled flight attitude... it works both way.

Last edited by takata; 6th May 2011 at 23:41.
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Old 6th May 2011, 23:57
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Vidcaps from the latest BEA video that covers the DFDR recovery.


Serial number confirmed while still on sea floor:




Inside transport enclosure:




Seals applied:




Officials observe entire process:




Debris maps:



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Old 7th May 2011, 00:07
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gums,
My pleasure: I enjoyed your post and the two responses I referred to, and await any comments on A330 dynamic stability (or possible lack of). Think you meant "killing" time, rather than "buying" it? We better not hold our breath.

Lonewolf 50
,
You inferred correctly. This was discussed on a previous AF447 thread last year. I don't know of any airliner that sports an AoA gauge in the cockpit in normal service, although AoA sensors have been the norm since the 1960s. Here are some airliners originating in the 1960s, 70s and 80s: listed roughly in order of entry into service.

(1) B707 (-320): No AoA sensors as such. Twin stick shaker and nudger system toggled by two lift transducer vanes, one under each wing leading-edge.
(2) VC10 (T-tail & rear-mounted engines): Two AoA sensors (non-mechanical) for the stall-protection system, which sequentially provided (a) pre-stall engine-ignition, (b) stick shaker, (c) stall-ident (stick-pusher). Bolt-on AoA sensor with cockpit gauge fitted only for air tests of the system.
(3) BAC 1-11 (T-tail & rear-mounted engines): similar to VC10, but conventional (mechanical-vane) AoA probes.
(4) DC10 (-30): Two AoA probes for stick shakers and automatic slat-extension.
(5) A310: Three AoA probes 2 for the twin stick-shakers and slat-retraction inhibition; the 3rd to supply the two FACs, which calculate limit and manoeuvre speeds for display on the PFD-ASIs.
(6) A320: Three AoA probes supplying data to three ADIRUs (for the FBW computers) and two FACs. A value of AoA may be available (with prior notice) on the F/O's MCDU in AIDS mode, but still no usable cockpit indicator.

With the exception of the B707, they all seem to have the capability of providing useful AoA data. Certainly the A310 and A320 could, and that means also the A330/340 and A380. The absence of AoA indicators implies a policy decision by manufacturers and regulators. One assumes they have had good reason to believe that they are unnecessary and/or counter-productive in an air-transport cockpit, most of whose pilots (myself included) have never trained on AoA indicators. It will be interesting to see if this is in any way pertinent to the downfall of AF447.

You and bearfoil are right to point out that flying pitch/thrust alone could be problematical as a method of recovery from an upset, even one which has not taken the aircraft near the edge of its flight envelope, and particularly if you were caught unawares. Recovery is likely to be a slow process, possibly accompanied by compelling speed warnings of one kind or the other.
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