Question about entry into Reversal Procedure
I don't flip thru charts, paper is so 20th Century, when I enter the new destination into the FMS, the new charts are available on a large screen. Which, if geo-referenced, show exactly where the plane is.
The question wasn't whether one could spiral down, it was could KZLA could clear one for an approach to KPOC.
Enuf!
GF
The question wasn't whether one could spiral down, it was could KZLA could clear one for an approach to KPOC.
Enuf!
GF
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Can center clear an airplane for an instrument approach?
Seriously? You've never flown into an airport at night where the tower and approach were shut down for the evening?
What would happen if approach control went down? Who do you think would handle the IFR traffic?
No way you fly a Galaxy. C'mon, now, that's not really necessary or pertinent to the discussion. - JT
Seriously? You've never flown into an airport at night where the tower and approach were shut down for the evening?
What would happen if approach control went down? Who do you think would handle the IFR traffic?
No way you fly a Galaxy. C'mon, now, that's not really necessary or pertinent to the discussion. - JT
Of course, center can you clear one for an approach, as an OAC can, IF it has control of the airspace. The airspace at KPOC is controlled, normally, by SoCal, so KZLA cannot issue an approach clearance to an aircraft in its airspace that would then exit it's airspace I to SoCal airspace, except with coordination with SoCal or a hand-off to SoCal with a frequency change.
My background is posted, I don't fly the Jet Commander Mode 10. The Galaxy is a Lockheed Georgia product.
GF
Are you SSG V10?
My background is posted, I don't fly the Jet Commander Mode 10. The Galaxy is a Lockheed Georgia product.
GF
Are you SSG V10?
Moderator
Can I ask that theficklefinger - and any others who might have a tendency to needless agitation and arm waving - has a Bex and a lie down/nice cup of tea (pick one) and takes ten deep breaths prior to continuing ?
FYI,
galaxy flyer (whom I know) was a military flyer and has extensive experience (including check and training, if I recall correctly) on Lockheed's product. His present mounts are matters for my envy. He has more than enough runs on the board to speak with authority on flight standards issues.
aterpster (whom I don't know personally but correspond with occasionally), likewise, is a very experienced pilot and an expert on procedural design matters.
I, for one, would hesitate to jump into criticising either unless I knew that I was on VERY solid ground ....
FYI,
galaxy flyer (whom I know) was a military flyer and has extensive experience (including check and training, if I recall correctly) on Lockheed's product. His present mounts are matters for my envy. He has more than enough runs on the board to speak with authority on flight standards issues.
aterpster (whom I don't know personally but correspond with occasionally), likewise, is a very experienced pilot and an expert on procedural design matters.
I, for one, would hesitate to jump into criticising either unless I knew that I was on VERY solid ground ....
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Back to reversal procedures;
Cleared for the approach, if I am approaching the procedure outside of the 30 degrees, but above the MSA, can I self position directly onto the outbound radial and then descend according to procedure altitudes?
Regards
Cleared for the approach, if I am approaching the procedure outside of the 30 degrees, but above the MSA, can I self position directly onto the outbound radial and then descend according to procedure altitudes?
Regards
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Sciolistes:
What individual states may or may not tolerate is impossible to determine. I do know the ICAO OCP, the panel that writes, and modifies PANS-OPS, did not envision such an operation. MSA direct to the course reversal (within 30 degrees) or direct to the alignment holding pattern if not within 30 degrees is what the OCP envisioned in criteria.
Having said that, practices in some states may have very well resulted in interpretations that it is permissible to do exactly what you are asking. In the U.S. similar ad hoc procedures have evolved that are the result of pilot or controller "inventiveness." This was not the case until RNAV became common.
If it were me I would want an authoritative answer from the aviation authority of the state in which I intended to use such a procedure.
That is what I am interested in too. We often debate this one! As far as I am concerened, if entering a procedure, not under radar control, in uncontrolled airspace and above MSA, you can manouvre as you see fit to get into the 30 deg cone. As long as you have tower clearance you can proceed past the IAP, if not then you have to hold anyway, but the tower clearance has nothing to do with how you choose to get to the IAP. I guess they may assume a direct routing, but even a slight offset of a mile or two won't change the ETA
Having said that, practices in some states may have very well resulted in interpretations that it is permissible to do exactly what you are asking. In the U.S. similar ad hoc procedures have evolved that are the result of pilot or controller "inventiveness." This was not the case until RNAV became common.
If it were me I would want an authoritative answer from the aviation authority of the state in which I intended to use such a procedure.
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JT - Come on. I could come in here and say I was a Shuttle Commander, it doesn't change the fact that you can hit POM at 35,000 Ft, and circle down on the hold until intercepting the final approach.
And what would a pilot do with a radio communications failure while he was at FL450 in his Galaxy? Well, technically, he could stay at FL450 and hit POM and circle all the way down, which is probably the safest route, vs coming down and hoping he didn't bump into any planes as he descended early for the IAP.
Unless there is an alien force field over LA that I don't know about, center clears people direct all the time for approaches, at gawd awful altitudes, from way the heck out.
I've been cleared for approaches by center in Canada 200 NMs out, when I was at 18000 feet. It was up to me to figure out how to get down.
Guys, this is instrument rating 101 stuff. F.F. out.
And what would a pilot do with a radio communications failure while he was at FL450 in his Galaxy? Well, technically, he could stay at FL450 and hit POM and circle all the way down, which is probably the safest route, vs coming down and hoping he didn't bump into any planes as he descended early for the IAP.
Unless there is an alien force field over LA that I don't know about, center clears people direct all the time for approaches, at gawd awful altitudes, from way the heck out.
I've been cleared for approaches by center in Canada 200 NMs out, when I was at 18000 feet. It was up to me to figure out how to get down.
Guys, this is instrument rating 101 stuff. F.F. out.
Moderator
you can hit POM at 35,000 Ft, and circle down on the hold until intercepting the final approach.
I must be getting slower as I get older. Surely we all understand that your comment is OK ? I can recall occasional letdowns where we ran over the facility (for this reason or that, including finger trouble) at levels up to 10-15,000 ft .. and the odd circuit joined downwind at FL300 or so .. just for fun. Have I missed the point somewhere ?
And what would a pilot do with a radio communications failure while he was at FL450 in his Galaxy?
Galaxy or whatever, the relevant AIP will prescribe the requirement, will it not ?
I must be getting slower as I get older. Surely we all understand that your comment is OK ? I can recall occasional letdowns where we ran over the facility (for this reason or that, including finger trouble) at levels up to 10-15,000 ft .. and the odd circuit joined downwind at FL300 or so .. just for fun. Have I missed the point somewhere ?
And what would a pilot do with a radio communications failure while he was at FL450 in his Galaxy?
Galaxy or whatever, the relevant AIP will prescribe the requirement, will it not ?
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Maybe it's a language barrier....if your 200 miles out of POM at FL450, radio failure...what are you going to do? No tower, no approach, no center...I guess all the relevant airspace arguments, transitions, clearances just went out the door didn't they?
I personally don't think it's that hard to consider that flying to the IAP, to descend in the procedure (HP) for the approach IS how one would do it.
Of course others would probably descend down to 6k for the IAP, flying through all sorts of traffic, with tower, approach and center, moving all sorts of traffic out of your way. Expect a nice phone call on the ground wondering why you took it upon yourself to descend from your last known assigned altitude...
Anyway...take a look at no radio procedures, last assigned altitudes, clearances and all that, you'll find I am right, that you can and will descend over POM in the hold, as gawd knows what altitude you were last assigned to.
I personally don't think it's that hard to consider that flying to the IAP, to descend in the procedure (HP) for the approach IS how one would do it.
Of course others would probably descend down to 6k for the IAP, flying through all sorts of traffic, with tower, approach and center, moving all sorts of traffic out of your way. Expect a nice phone call on the ground wondering why you took it upon yourself to descend from your last known assigned altitude...
Anyway...take a look at no radio procedures, last assigned altitudes, clearances and all that, you'll find I am right, that you can and will descend over POM in the hold, as gawd knows what altitude you were last assigned to.
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Sciolistes, I avoid the discussions by ordering full compliance with the published procedure. It's the same grey area as DIR TO descending below MEA unless I have RVC I don't accept this, over. 
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photofly:
The PANS-OPS graphic in Post #2.
Much as I'm enjoying this thread, somewhere along the way I've lost track of what the protagonists actually disagree about. Could someone fill me in please?
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I got that - I was wondering about the argument over descents over POM. That makes no sense to me, and I was wondering if I was missing something that might be helpful.
aterpster: question about your posting with the Bardufoss plate. How *do* the designers expect you to use BDF hold to align for the RWY 28 teardrop, since it's the wrong way?
aterpster: question about your posting with the Bardufoss plate. How *do* the designers expect you to use BDF hold to align for the RWY 28 teardrop, since it's the wrong way?
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photofly:
Originally, it was about descending SE bound on V-197 to POM, then fly the KEMT VOR-A IAP. The course reversal hold would be required, and it lies beneath the Los Angeles Class B airspace. You would have to be below the airspace the the Los Angeles sector of SoCal owns, which is above So Cal's Ontario sector. There was apparently a lot of disagreement about that. Then, the focus on that aspect was lost.
The holding pattern provides a lot of airspace to enter either the Runway 10 or 28 IAPs. In the case of 28 you would enter the hold and when turning outbound align on the outbound leg of the teardrop/baseleg course reversal.
I got that - I was wondering about the argument over descents over POM. That makes no sense to me, and I was wondering if I was missing something that might be helpful.
aterpster: question about your posting with the Bardufoss plate. How *do* the designers expect you to use BDF hold to align for the RWY 28 teardrop, since it's the wrong way?
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Flying to KEMT & arriving from SE the flight plan would be filed with IAF being PDZ thus NO PT is required thereafter, this is also written on the chart NO PT coming from PDZ on R 292 inbound at 4000 ft. Keep it simple folks.
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9.G
That is correct but irrelevant to the hypothetical. As I said in the previous post:
Originally, it was about descending SE bound on V-197 to POM, then fly the KEMT VOR-A IAP. The course reversal hold would be required, and it lies beneath the Los Angeles Class B airspace.
Your example is NW bound to POM. My example is SE bound to POM.
Flying to KEMT & arriving from SE the flight plan would be filed with IAF being PDZ thus NO PT is required thereafter, this is also written on the chart NO PT coming from PDZ on R 292 inbound at 4000 ft. Keep it simple folks.
Originally, it was about descending SE bound on V-197 to POM, then fly the KEMT VOR-A IAP. The course reversal hold would be required, and it lies beneath the Los Angeles Class B airspace.
Your example is NW bound to POM. My example is SE bound to POM.
Ficklefinger
When, or why, was NORDO procedures brought into this? I don't disagree that one can hold over the VOR or IAF and descend in holding for the approach. In fact, I cited two cases where I recently did just that, VOIP (PANS-OPS) and PTRO (TERPS).
Back to monitoring the thread
GF
When, or why, was NORDO procedures brought into this? I don't disagree that one can hold over the VOR or IAF and descend in holding for the approach. In fact, I cited two cases where I recently did just that, VOIP (PANS-OPS) and PTRO (TERPS).
Back to monitoring the thread
GF
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9.G:
And, coming from PDZ or PRADO your are at 4,000, well below the airspace used by a different SoCal sector for LA arrivals from the east. Arriving from the NW over POM, though, the MEA of the airway (prior to HASSA) if continued, would fly directly into the LA arrival sector. The Class B airspace gives a good "hint" about all of that.
Anyone interested can go to skyvector.com, "go" to POM then select the Los Angeles TAC to see the Class B airspace clearly.
And, coming from PDZ or PRADO your are at 4,000, well below the airspace used by a different SoCal sector for LA arrivals from the east. Arriving from the NW over POM, though, the MEA of the airway (prior to HASSA) if continued, would fly directly into the LA arrival sector. The Class B airspace gives a good "hint" about all of that.
Anyone interested can go to skyvector.com, "go" to POM then select the Los Angeles TAC to see the Class B airspace clearly.