Question about entry into Reversal Procedure
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Question about entry into Reversal Procedure
Hello everyone,
ICAO DOC 8168 PANS-OPS Figure I-4-3-4 shows a diagram that has a +/- 30 degree segment where you can go straight into the outbound leg for a 45/180 Reversal procedure. The remaining 300 degree segment has a note that says:
"Arrivals from this sector must enter the holding prior to the reversal procedure"
My question is whether a hold entry manoeuvre, eg flying a teardrop or parallel entry to then be established on the inbound track towards the beacon satisfies "enter the holding", or whether it is required to complete the entry, and then actually go once around the hold, before commencing the outbound leg of the reversal procedure.
I've read before the debates/questions on entry into Racetrack procedures, but couldn't find anything specifically about Reversal procedures.
Many thanks,
Shortcut
ICAO DOC 8168 PANS-OPS Figure I-4-3-4 shows a diagram that has a +/- 30 degree segment where you can go straight into the outbound leg for a 45/180 Reversal procedure. The remaining 300 degree segment has a note that says:
"Arrivals from this sector must enter the holding prior to the reversal procedure"
My question is whether a hold entry manoeuvre, eg flying a teardrop or parallel entry to then be established on the inbound track towards the beacon satisfies "enter the holding", or whether it is required to complete the entry, and then actually go once around the hold, before commencing the outbound leg of the reversal procedure.
I've read before the debates/questions on entry into Racetrack procedures, but couldn't find anything specifically about Reversal procedures.
Many thanks,
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My question is whether a hold entry manoeuvre, eg flying a teardrop or parallel entry to then be established on the inbound track towards the beacon satisfies "enter the holding", or whether it is required to complete the entry, and then actually go once around the hold, before commencing the outbound leg of the reversal procedure.
It's not necessary to fly another circuit once the entry into the alignment hold has been completed.
Think about it -- once you're headed back to the fix following the entry, aren't you established in the "direct" sector?
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make sure you reverse course on the procedure turn side.
know the terrain
if a holding pattern is depicted along with the above instructions, there is probably a darn good reason...mountain for example.
I get a kick out of your european terms, yet in one of the diagrams it is called, wwhat we call it: a procedure turn
45/180 reversal indeed...though you could probably do a 90/270 if you like.
also, the holding pattern is nice as you get a chance to determine the winds...assuming you don't have a magic box doing the thinking for you.
know the terrain
if a holding pattern is depicted along with the above instructions, there is probably a darn good reason...mountain for example.
I get a kick out of your european terms, yet in one of the diagrams it is called, wwhat we call it: a procedure turn
45/180 reversal indeed...though you could probably do a 90/270 if you like.
also, the holding pattern is nice as you get a chance to determine the winds...assuming you don't have a magic box doing the thinking for you.
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As far as operating in the US and associated areas is concerned as long as you accomplish a reversal on the correct side within the alloted distance (unless a specific entry type is depicted, and a 45/180 is not a "specific" entry, it's just a guideline) you can do any sort of entry you like, personally I prefer a teardrop starting over the fix if the hold is on the "far" side from me or a 90/270 if its on the same side.
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You guys are missing the point. Zeffy posted the PANS-OPS illustration. PANS-OPS (not TERPS) requires that a holding pattern first be entered to properly align with the procedure turn (typically a base-turn) unless you are approaching the base-turn within 30 degrees.
Neither sevenstrokeroll or aviatorhi understand PANS-OPS instrument procedures. Say what you about "European terms", PANS-OPS are different and until you learn the difference, may I humbly suggest you not fly outside the US.
Aterpster
I don't have an example handy, but it is possible not to have either a hold or a routing that puts one on the correct track to the course reversal. I'll look
GF
Aterpster
I don't have an example handy, but it is possible not to have either a hold or a routing that puts one on the correct track to the course reversal. I'll look
GF
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Are you gonna ban me from flying into places which are within US oversight and US regulations apply but are outside the US as well?
I prefaced my statement with where it would apply, and whenever I go to a place where non US regs are in place I review the Jepps for any pertinent procedural information.
I don't think the original question had anything to do with how you enter a hold, rather it had more to do about when you are established in the hold, the conversation had drifted towards the direction of entry.
I prefaced my statement with where it would apply, and whenever I go to a place where non US regs are in place I review the Jepps for any pertinent procedural information.
I don't think the original question had anything to do with how you enter a hold, rather it had more to do about when you are established in the hold, the conversation had drifted towards the direction of entry.
I did not suggest, in any way, banning anyone from anywhere. To the OP, the question was about accomplishing the holding entry to be aligned with the course reversal track. The answer to which s once aligned with the outbound course, that is within 30* of the course reversal track and cleared for the approach, there is no need to fly the hold. Conventional holding entry procedures apply.
GF
GF
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aviatorhi, sevenstrokeroll -- perhaps you've answered a question that is different from the OP's?
Please forgive if this appears to be advice on how to suck eggs, but honestly, I don't think that the Jeppesen Chart Legend pages provide adequate guidance on how PANS OPS procedures are flown.
As aterpster, gf and upper air have noted, in a non-radar environment, PANS OPS procedures may require an alignment hold that is flown prior to the course reversal.
The requirement to fly or not-fly the alignment hold is dependent on the direction of arrival at the specified fix.
If the arrival route is outside of the "direct" entry sector -- i.e., "Entry Sector" and "Sector 1" below, the alignment hold becomes a mandatory part of the Initial approach segment.
Following are the figures cited in aterpster's "red boxed" directive.
The following charts illustrate alignment hold concepts.
Prior to Base Turn (not required from TISAD):
Prior to "Procedure Turn":
If your FMS is approach-capable, it's important to note that the approach in the database won't contain the alignment hold. When required, the hold pattern will have to be manually inserted into the active route by the pilot and flown prior to executing the specified course reversal.
These PANS OPS concepts are frequently omitted in TERPS/USA IFR training so it's not surprising that the core of the OP's question may have been missed.
whenever I go to a place where non US regs are in place I review the Jepps for any pertinent procedural information.
As aterpster, gf and upper air have noted, in a non-radar environment, PANS OPS procedures may require an alignment hold that is flown prior to the course reversal.
The requirement to fly or not-fly the alignment hold is dependent on the direction of arrival at the specified fix.
If the arrival route is outside of the "direct" entry sector -- i.e., "Entry Sector" and "Sector 1" below, the alignment hold becomes a mandatory part of the Initial approach segment.
Following are the figures cited in aterpster's "red boxed" directive.
The following charts illustrate alignment hold concepts.
Prior to Base Turn (not required from TISAD):
Prior to "Procedure Turn":
If your FMS is approach-capable, it's important to note that the approach in the database won't contain the alignment hold. When required, the hold pattern will have to be manually inserted into the active route by the pilot and flown prior to executing the specified course reversal.
These PANS OPS concepts are frequently omitted in TERPS/USA IFR training so it's not surprising that the core of the OP's question may have been missed.
Thanks, Zeffy
As an addendum, using PANS-OPS procedures, in a non-radar environment, there is no using FAA "holding" entries for the course reversal. The pilot MUST fly the course reversal as charted, whether it is a procedure turn, 80-260, base turn or racetrack. US pilots frequently miss this requirement.
GF
As an addendum, using PANS-OPS procedures, in a non-radar environment, there is no using FAA "holding" entries for the course reversal. The pilot MUST fly the course reversal as charted, whether it is a procedure turn, 80-260, base turn or racetrack. US pilots frequently miss this requirement.
GF
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aterpster
At your request.
I am a little short on time but found this one in a hurry.
https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/curre...NDU_5-6_en.pdf
I don't expect you to be familiar with this type of chart so in case you are wondering the dotted line is a holding pattern, not a racetrack.
How do you enter the approach if you come in outside the base turn entry limits?
At your request.
I am a little short on time but found this one in a hurry.
https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/curre...NDU_5-6_en.pdf
I don't expect you to be familiar with this type of chart so in case you are wondering the dotted line is a holding pattern, not a racetrack.
How do you enter the approach if you come in outside the base turn entry limits?
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minimumunstick:
At your request.
I am a little short on time but found this one in a hurry.
I don't expect you to be familiar with this type of chart so in case you are wondering the dotted line is a holding pattern, not a racetrack.
How do you enter the approach if you come in outside the base turn entry limits?
As a matter of fact I am familiar with that airport, having just done a bit of TAWS assessment there.
I read Jepps a lot better than AIP source. Here is the Jepp for the IAP you reference and for the VOR IAP in the opposite direction. Note the second chart uses the same holding pattern, which makes a better fit for alignment prior to entry into the base leg. Nonetheless, the designers presumed the holding pattern "is suitable" for alignment to the base leg for either of these two IAPs.
aterpster
At your request.
I am a little short on time but found this one in a hurry.
I don't expect you to be familiar with this type of chart so in case you are wondering the dotted line is a holding pattern, not a racetrack.
How do you enter the approach if you come in outside the base turn entry limits?
As a matter of fact I am familiar with that airport, having just done a bit of TAWS assessment there.
I read Jepps a lot better than AIP source. Here is the Jepp for the IAP you reference and for the VOR IAP in the opposite direction. Note the second chart uses the same holding pattern, which makes a better fit for alignment prior to entry into the base leg. Nonetheless, the designers presumed the holding pattern "is suitable" for alignment to the base leg for either of these two IAPs.
Last edited by aterpster; 25th Mar 2011 at 18:04.
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gf:
Not if they are properly trained in international procedures.
If they have to first use the alignment holding pattern to properly align for the base leg or procedure turn reversal, they certainly can use the FAA/ICAO recommened pattern entries into the alignment holding pattern.
As an aside, anyone who really understands TERPS and its containment assumptions does not buy into the FAA's AIM garbage about the various options for flying a standard procedure turn in a TERPS IAP. It should be flown with positive course guidance both outbound and inbound. But, I digress.
As an addendum, using PANS-OPS procedures, in a non-radar environment, there is no using FAA "holding" entries for the course reversal. The pilot MUST fly the course reversal as charted, whether it is a procedure turn, 80-260, base turn or racetrack. US pilots frequently miss this requirement.
If they have to first use the alignment holding pattern to properly align for the base leg or procedure turn reversal, they certainly can use the FAA/ICAO recommened pattern entries into the alignment holding pattern.
As an aside, anyone who really understands TERPS and its containment assumptions does not buy into the FAA's AIM garbage about the various options for flying a standard procedure turn in a TERPS IAP. It should be flown with positive course guidance both outbound and inbound. But, I digress.
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...the dotted line is a holding pattern, not a racetrack.
How do you enter the approach if you come in outside the base turn entry limits?
How do you enter the approach if you come in outside the base turn entry limits?
And your original question is now more clear -- i.e., "once the holding entry has commenced, will it be necessary to fly a circuit in the alignment holding pattern?"
Perhaps scaling of the holding pattern on the Norway AIP version is a bit confusing -- aterpster has kindly provided the Jeppesen chart.
If arriving from outside of the "direct" entry sector for the base turn, one should enter the published alignment hold.
The base turn leg is joined from the outbound track of the alignment hold. This is accomplished by turning beyond the 109-deg outbound track to intercept the (Cat C/D) 089-deg radial.
Thus the requirement to simply fly the holding entry and join the 089 radial or to return to the VOR and begin the base turn will depend upon the method used to enter the alignment hold.
For examples: Arriving from the North on the 360 radial, use a "Parallel" holding entry and return to the VOR -- arriving from the East on the 090 radial, use a "Direct" entry and turn to intercept the 089 radial to begin the base turn.
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Thanks guys. So basically you would enter the hold, and when turning outbound you just continue until you intercept the baseturn outbound leg?
Another question just to clarify:
When flying in the US doing a procedure turn (I always do the 45/180), even though ICAO rules say you must be within 30 degrees of the outbound leg, is it ok not to be? I am a little confused on this.
When I flew in the states everyone would just turn to intercept outbound leg no matter where they came from.. is this legal / the proper way to do it?
Another question just to clarify:
When flying in the US doing a procedure turn (I always do the 45/180), even though ICAO rules say you must be within 30 degrees of the outbound leg, is it ok not to be? I am a little confused on this.
When I flew in the states everyone would just turn to intercept outbound leg no matter where they came from.. is this legal / the proper way to do it?
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minimumunstick:
That is correct with TERPs in the U.S. The only restriction is descent to procedure turn completion altitude where a minimum altitude is shown in the profile view over the procedure turn fix. In that case that altitude is the minimum altitude until established outbound in the procedure turn; i.e., the entry maneuver is completed.
More and more FAA IAPs that have course reversals are using holding patterns instead of conventional procedure turns. In that case, the holding pattern rules apply both as to entry and speed limits.
There are a few(very few actually) FAA IAPs with teardrop procedure turns. Those must be flown exactly as shown.
When I flew in the states everyone would just turn to intercept outbound leg no matter where they came from.. is this legal / the proper way to do it?
More and more FAA IAPs that have course reversals are using holding patterns instead of conventional procedure turns. In that case, the holding pattern rules apply both as to entry and speed limits.
There are a few(very few actually) FAA IAPs with teardrop procedure turns. Those must be flown exactly as shown.
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Thanks, that clarifies my doubts!
Another question I have never really seen a proper answer to written anywhere:
Let's say you are on a long final for a straight in approach. You have not reached the IAF yet but you are on the inbound course. On the approach plate there is a racetrack procedure depicted (I use racetrack for this example, might as well be any type of procedure turn or baseturn) to get you established on the inbound course.
If ATC clears you for the approach, without having to clarify with ATC, are you cleared to continue straight in from the IAF, assuming you are already established at the correct altitude? Or are you still required to complete a lap in the racetrack, as it is "bolded out" on the chart and thereby a mandatory part of the approach procedure?
I have heard so many different versions on this, but what I hear most often is that you must actually do the racetrack unless specifically allowed by ATC to continue straight in. But to me that seems a bit odd as you are already established and doing a lap in the racetrack would just take up extra time and fuel..
Thanks once again
Another question I have never really seen a proper answer to written anywhere:
Let's say you are on a long final for a straight in approach. You have not reached the IAF yet but you are on the inbound course. On the approach plate there is a racetrack procedure depicted (I use racetrack for this example, might as well be any type of procedure turn or baseturn) to get you established on the inbound course.
If ATC clears you for the approach, without having to clarify with ATC, are you cleared to continue straight in from the IAF, assuming you are already established at the correct altitude? Or are you still required to complete a lap in the racetrack, as it is "bolded out" on the chart and thereby a mandatory part of the approach procedure?
I have heard so many different versions on this, but what I hear most often is that you must actually do the racetrack unless specifically allowed by ATC to continue straight in. But to me that seems a bit odd as you are already established and doing a lap in the racetrack would just take up extra time and fuel..
Thanks once again