Leaving a holding pattern
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Leaving a holding pattern
Hi All,
I've found on an approach chart this kind of situation:
-holding pattern over a VOR: inbound course 048°, right turn,
-ILS procedure: starts from the VOR on track 254° (downwind leg) and then later on, right turn to intercept the approach course.
It's a 154° left turn to join the downwind leg from the inbound course of the holding pattern.
Is it legal to do such a turn? Or would you do a right turn come back over the VOR and then continue on the downwind leg?
The chart is not giving any indication how to do it and I haven't found the info in any documentation.
Thanks for your answers!
I've found on an approach chart this kind of situation:
-holding pattern over a VOR: inbound course 048°, right turn,
-ILS procedure: starts from the VOR on track 254° (downwind leg) and then later on, right turn to intercept the approach course.
It's a 154° left turn to join the downwind leg from the inbound course of the holding pattern.
Is it legal to do such a turn? Or would you do a right turn come back over the VOR and then continue on the downwind leg?
The chart is not giving any indication how to do it and I haven't found the info in any documentation.
Thanks for your answers!
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When passing the VOR you stay in the holding, means a right turn, and continue towards the VOR. shortly before reaching the VOR you turn left to intercept the approach track 254°. This is the only way to stay inside the protected area....and more important, you stay clear of the departure path of the runway in use.
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I completely agree.
A holding has to be left via the fix, whatever turns you fly, you have to stay on the "holding side" as this is the only area where a safe ground separation is guaranteed.
*...*
Cheers,
Thomas
A holding has to be left via the fix, whatever turns you fly, you have to stay on the "holding side" as this is the only area where a safe ground separation is guaranteed.
*...*
Cheers,
Thomas
Last edited by Thone1; 12th Dec 2010 at 16:09. Reason: withdrew parts of my answer
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I may be wrong, but to start outbound you need to cross the fix within +/- 30 degrees of the reciprocal of the outbound leg which in this case means you need to do a course reversal.
Cross the VOR, continue outbound for one minute on the 048 radial then turn right to intercept the 074 radial inbound, then proceed outbound on the 254 having crossed the VOR.
Hold altitude should be at or above MSA.
Cross the VOR, continue outbound for one minute on the 048 radial then turn right to intercept the 074 radial inbound, then proceed outbound on the 254 having crossed the VOR.
Hold altitude should be at or above MSA.
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Thone1,
You might have flown this approach already, it's in Stuttgart, for rwy 07. I'm using a LIDO chart.
The holding is at TGO VOR, which is South of the airport.
Gooneyone,
If you fly on the 048°, you get closer to the airport. And I think the rule of 30° is to start a reciprocal turn or a racetrack pattern. This is just a downwind leg.
LeNautilus
You might have flown this approach already, it's in Stuttgart, for rwy 07. I'm using a LIDO chart.
The holding is at TGO VOR, which is South of the airport.
Gooneyone,
If you fly on the 048°, you get closer to the airport. And I think the rule of 30° is to start a reciprocal turn or a racetrack pattern. This is just a downwind leg.
LeNautilus
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I'm not familiar with the term "downwind leg". Are you referring to a base turn, which takes you outbound then turns you on to the ILS? If so, the course reversal is required.
I'm also not familiar with the approach plate. Any chance of posting a copy - that would help.
I'm also not familiar with the approach plate. Any chance of posting a copy - that would help.
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If link doesn't work there it is
http://www.opennav.com/pdf/EDDS/ED_A...2008-07-31.pdf
http://nav.vatsim-germany.org/files/..._ILS_RWY07.pdf
Charts are old and I'm doubtful they're true but that's the only stuff I cared to look for (else I did find a Stuttgart up to date chart, but in Arizona, or Arkansas, anyway yankee city).
I reckon they might have changed since there is an obvious problem to me regarding how the TGO part of the procedure is designed.
To me looks like Nightrider and Gooneyone got the right answer : keep the inbound track a bit after passing overhead TGO, then right turn to join radial 074 inbound (QDR 074 ?), which depending on your acft category, will require or not a slight left turn to join the track. Your own cuisine, still might work.
OR you could "build your own reversal turn" : it's a 1'23" outbound leg radial 048 outbound then right turn (standard rate 3° per second) and you should end up with your manhood right on the 074 inbound track, says my old instructor. This corrected for wind effect. Not necessarily dangerous as long as you stay above MSA, which seems to be 4,700'.
OR, safest solution in flight, request vectors.
Last edited by Mintheskies; 11th Dec 2010 at 09:04. Reason: Corrections
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Great links meintheskies,
The approach depicted is the same as I have on my chart. I am calling "downwind leg" the part which is on track 254°, parallel to the runway. Same as on a visual approach.
I understand that in "real life" you'd most probably get vectors but I am getting ready for a sim assesment.
Based on what was said earlier on, when flying over the VOR, at the end of the inbound, right turn to come back to the VOR and then anticipate a left turn to intercept the 254°. I think building my own procedure turn would make it too complicated. Staying on the protected side of the holding should be sufficient.
Thanks for contributing.
The approach depicted is the same as I have on my chart. I am calling "downwind leg" the part which is on track 254°, parallel to the runway. Same as on a visual approach.
I understand that in "real life" you'd most probably get vectors but I am getting ready for a sim assesment.
Based on what was said earlier on, when flying over the VOR, at the end of the inbound, right turn to come back to the VOR and then anticipate a left turn to intercept the 254°. I think building my own procedure turn would make it too complicated. Staying on the protected side of the holding should be sufficient.
Thanks for contributing.
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Deleted my first reply, since I misread your question.
Stay at 5000 feet, at the holding inbound TGO, fly over TGO and turn left heading 209 to incept and follow radial 254 outbound (the "downwind" Initial Approach segment). When established at the radial descend to 4000 and continue the procedure. You are above the MSA in the turn and don't need to be concerned about protected airspace.
Incidentally, this is how the 737 FMC would do it as well.
As I wrote in my deleted reply, I would turn lead a mile or 2 before the VOR to avoid too much overshoot.
*edited for wrong radial*
Stay at 5000 feet, at the holding inbound TGO, fly over TGO and turn left heading 209 to incept and follow radial 254 outbound (the "downwind" Initial Approach segment). When established at the radial descend to 4000 and continue the procedure. You are above the MSA in the turn and don't need to be concerned about protected airspace.
Incidentally, this is how the 737 FMC would do it as well.
As I wrote in my deleted reply, I would turn lead a mile or 2 before the VOR to avoid too much overshoot.
*edited for wrong radial*
Last edited by cosmo kramer; 30th Dec 2010 at 11:02.
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MHA is higher than highest MSA, so the holding protection is not an issue here.
Maintain not lower than 5000 and save fuel, time, money and global warming: After overflying Tango, fly right until a say 270-280º track and intercept the 254º radial. When stablished you can descend to 4000. There is no hurry to descend since you still have plenty of miles to touchdown.
If instructed to commence approach during the outbound, justturn right and intercept the 254º.
If instructed during the inbound, continue to the VOR and right to incercept.
Maintain not lower than 5000 and save fuel, time, money and global warming: After overflying Tango, fly right until a say 270-280º track and intercept the 254º radial. When stablished you can descend to 4000. There is no hurry to descend since you still have plenty of miles to touchdown.
If instructed to commence approach during the outbound, justturn right and intercept the 254º.
If instructed during the inbound, continue to the VOR and right to incercept.
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Sorry folks, I don't agree. TGO is listed as the IAF, which means that the 254 Radial is the outbound leg of the approach. If you mean to do it "by the book", you must cross TGO then fly outbound on the 048R then turn right to fly back to the TGO planning to cross TGO within +/-30 degrees of the reciprocal of the outbound leg.
If you can get another clearance, that's fine, but that's the way Jeppesen states it as from Doc 8168. If you are doing a sim assessment, it might be worth your while to clarify this with the instructor during the brief.
If you can get another clearance, that's fine, but that's the way Jeppesen states it as from Doc 8168. If you are doing a sim assessment, it might be worth your while to clarify this with the instructor during the brief.
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Further to my last post, have a look at the site below. Pages 23/24/25 cover the area we are discussing. Hope this helps
http://goacp.chc.ca/ACP%20Documents/...DOC%208168.pdf
http://goacp.chc.ca/ACP%20Documents/...DOC%208168.pdf
PANS-OPS requires a course reversal to be entered from within 30 degrees of the axis. But this isn't a course reversal, is it? The downwind leg from TGO is not a course reversal, just an ordinary initial approach segment. I'm with cosmo -- left turn. But I have to confess to being slightly embarrassed at not being able to point to a specific regulatory reference that confirms that.
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The key is the IAF. Doc 8168 specifies only the +/-30 if no IAF exists.
By flying the holding you already overflow the IAF. How you position yourself for the Initial Approach Segment doesn't matter as long as you don't descend before established. I would say ATC would expect that you establish yourself in the shortest possible way though, hence the left turn.
By the way:
Corresponds pretty good to the approach in question. Only thing we want to accomplish is to get safe to the IF before the beginning of the Intermediate Approach segment (the segment that is constructed for us to slow down and lining us up for an intercept for the final approach.
To do this maneuver as required and descend when established.
Reference:
Chapter 3 INITIAL APPROACH SEGMENT
3.2 TYPES OF MANOEUVRES
3.2.1 Where no suitable IAF or IF is available to construct the instrument procedure in the form shown in Figure I-4-1-1, a reversal procedure, racetrack or holding pattern is required.
3.3 FLIGHT PROCEDURES FOR RACETRACK AND REVERSAL PROCEDURES 3.3.1 Entry
3.3.1.1 Unless the procedure specifies particular entry restrictions, reversal procedures shall be entered from a track within ±30° of the outbound track of the reversal procedure. However, for base turns, where the ±30° direct entry sector does not include the reciprocal of the inbound track, the entry sector is expanded to include it.
Chapter 3 INITIAL APPROACH SEGMENT
3.2 TYPES OF MANOEUVRES
3.2.1 Where no suitable IAF or IF is available to construct the instrument procedure in the form shown in Figure I-4-1-1, a reversal procedure, racetrack or holding pattern is required.
3.3 FLIGHT PROCEDURES FOR RACETRACK AND REVERSAL PROCEDURES 3.3.1 Entry
3.3.1.1 Unless the procedure specifies particular entry restrictions, reversal procedures shall be entered from a track within ±30° of the outbound track of the reversal procedure. However, for base turns, where the ±30° direct entry sector does not include the reciprocal of the inbound track, the entry sector is expanded to include it.
By the way:
Chapter 3 INITIAL APPROACH SEGMENT
3.1 GENERAL
3.1.1 Purpose
3.1.1.1 The initial approach segment begins at the initial approach fix (IAF) and ends at the intermediate fix (IF). In the initial approach, the aircraft has left the en-route structure and is manoeuvring to enter the intermediate approach segment.
3.1 GENERAL
3.1.1 Purpose
3.1.1.1 The initial approach segment begins at the initial approach fix (IAF) and ends at the intermediate fix (IF). In the initial approach, the aircraft has left the en-route structure and is manoeuvring to enter the intermediate approach segment.
To do this maneuver as required and descend when established.
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The key is the IAF. Doc 8168 specifies only the +/-30 if no IAF exists.
But I have to confess to being slightly embarrassed at not being able to point to a specific regulatory reference that confirms that.
Stay at 5000 feet, at the holding inbound TGO, fly over TGO and turn left heading 209 to incept and follow radial 074 outbound (the 254 "downwind" Initial Approach segment). When established at the radial descend to 4000 and continue the procedure. You are above the MSA in the turn and don't need to be concerned about protected airspace.
Incidentally, this is how the 737 FMC would do it as well.
Last edited by Spendid Cruiser; 12th Dec 2010 at 02:58.
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Is it possible that the approach was never intended to be initiated from the published hold at TGO? Could the holding at TGO simply be for the missed approach procedure?
If you look at EDDS 10-2, the REUTL FOUR ALPHA and the TEKSI 4 ALPHA arrivals use TGO as an initial approach fix for RW 07. The REUTL FOUR is inbound to TGO on R163 and the TEKSI Four is inbound to TGO on R077. Both of these routes seem to fit in better than initiating the approach from the published hold at TGO, although it doesn't solve the problem of what to do on a missed approach after you get to TGO and hold.
If you look at EDDS 10-2, the REUTL FOUR ALPHA and the TEKSI 4 ALPHA arrivals use TGO as an initial approach fix for RW 07. The REUTL FOUR is inbound to TGO on R163 and the TEKSI Four is inbound to TGO on R077. Both of these routes seem to fit in better than initiating the approach from the published hold at TGO, although it doesn't solve the problem of what to do on a missed approach after you get to TGO and hold.
Anyway, I think a left turn is incorrect. As previously mentioned, you must keep your turns on the side of the hold, so the only option as I see it, is a right turn until you're on an intercept course for the initial approach segment.
The REUTL FOUR ALPHA is inbound to TGO on R163