'Last look' checks - for/against?
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Spoken 'Last look' checks - for/against?
I'm talking about airline flying here, no disrespect but please don't reply and tell me how you do/teach it in your puddlejumper. (Or single-seat wonderjet where you can talk to yourself all you like 
)
You know who you are, muttering incantations about flaps, packs etc during line-up and again going on about gear, flaps, brakes etc on short finals.
Have you guys never heard of checklists? You do the appropriate checklist and you will find that you have checked your gear is down etc in the proper place/time. (or did the gear retract itself after you put the landing checklist away?
)
If you feel a checklist is not complete, go around or don't accept line-up clearance until you run the checklist again.
IMHO, short finals or lining-up for departure are places to be looking out the window and concentrating on handling the aeroplane. Am I in a minority of one who feels that these impromptu self-created extra checks just get in the way?
)You know who you are, muttering incantations about flaps, packs etc during line-up and again going on about gear, flaps, brakes etc on short finals.
Have you guys never heard of checklists? You do the appropriate checklist and you will find that you have checked your gear is down etc in the proper place/time. (or did the gear retract itself after you put the landing checklist away?
)If you feel a checklist is not complete, go around or don't accept line-up clearance until you run the checklist again.
IMHO, short finals or lining-up for departure are places to be looking out the window and concentrating on handling the aeroplane. Am I in a minority of one who feels that these impromptu self-created extra checks just get in the way?
Last edited by strikemaster82; 3rd Mar 2010 at 07:28.
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Am I in a minority of one who feels that these impromptu self-created extra checks just get in the way?
A few old timers (myself included) will complete a very brief aircraft configuration check just prior to entering the runway, for takeoff.
This configuration check is...
Flaps/slats set properly.
Spoilers down.
Stab trim in the takeoff range.
On the runway, and lined up, check compass headings for agreement.
These are known 'killer' items from past accidents, and therefore, in my considered opinion, deserve a second look.
NB.
This configuration check was a mandatory item where I first obtained jet aircraft training on the B707, long ago...PanAmerican.
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Have you never read a wrong response to a checklist? Answered ON where in fact the system was OFF? I'm sure you have. I'm sure you corrected yourself on it, or your collegue corrected you, or may be you both never even noticed the mistake!
Yep, I do a quick check. Silently. Just in case.
Yep, I do a quick check. Silently. Just in case.
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Blimey!
You warn off pilots of certain types of aircraft.
Moan about people that do an extra quick look around the cockpit (enhancing safety for a measly few seconds of effort (IMHO)).
All the while not knowing what certain parts of the circuit or phase of flight are!
It's FINAL, not FINALS. Do you or did you do DOWNWINDS checks? No? Thought not
Rant over. Bad day today.
You warn off pilots of certain types of aircraft.
Moan about people that do an extra quick look around the cockpit (enhancing safety for a measly few seconds of effort (IMHO)).
All the while not knowing what certain parts of the circuit or phase of flight are!
It's FINAL, not FINALS. Do you or did you do DOWNWINDS checks? No? Thought not
Rant over. Bad day today.
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Blimey yourself Dave. Go and have a beer, I'll call it finals if I wants.
My point, which you have missed, is I am questioning if these things do add safety - while these guys re-check that which has been checked they are not looking around for the next thing which might get them... weather radar returns, etc.
And I still don't want to know how a PPL does it, thanks
My point, which you have missed, is I am questioning if these things do add safety - while these guys re-check that which has been checked they are not looking around for the next thing which might get them... weather radar returns, etc.
And I still don't want to know how a PPL does it, thanks
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Do you think that in every accident caused by the aircraft not being in the correct config, the crew had just not read out any checks? Of course they had. Mistakes happen, I would venture that a quick scan of the important bits is good airmanship, not to mention potentially job enhancing in the days of FDM.
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In my outfit some guys do but that is generally cause they are new to type and command. When they do it tho is after exiting the runway about to turn to a taxi way after the after landing checks are done, no checklist for those you see.
Mostly flaps are up, hydraulic pressure is green and lights are out. Ones not needed by the way.
Mostly flaps are up, hydraulic pressure is green and lights are out. Ones not needed by the way.
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I noticed after my arrival here in the US that I was being pressured very much more than in Europe to hurry into position and get airborne... Not just where you'd expect (JFK/LGA/LHX etc) but at airports where traffic was almost a novelty... " traffic 3 mile finals / cleared immediate.. " why the rush ? The next arrival is still 150 miles away. I often thought.. sooner or later this unnecessary pressure will cause someone to roll without flaps/slats whatever... a quick look at essentials prior to rolling can only be a safety factor... At the really busy places we usually have to queue anyway which gives us plenty of opportunity to cast around for anything out of place.
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Strikemaster - have you read the report of the Spanair crash in Madrid? What would you say to a last minute check of flaps etc there?
- and was the checklist 'complete' in their minds...? How many wheels-ups have 'seen' three greens at 1500'?
I would recommend you take a look at what we old 'hairy-arses' say, and in the words of one
"These are known 'killer' items from past accidents, and therefore, in my considered opinion, deserve a second look."
Of course, you don't HAVE to do it.
If you feel a checklist is not complete, go around or don't accept line-up clearance until you run the checklist again.
I would recommend you take a look at what we old 'hairy-arses' say, and in the words of one
"These are known 'killer' items from past accidents, and therefore, in my considered opinion, deserve a second look."
Of course, you don't HAVE to do it.
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For!!
I always do a last minute check before take off and prior to minimums. FAATS (Flaps, Airbrakes, Annunciators, Trim and Speeds posted)on TO, 3 green and spoilers armed prior to landing If the flaps are not out I should already know that due to the speed difference or the stick pusher).
They take very little time to do and hopefully will allow me to retire without any major embarrassing moments.
I am also happy to see that someone else has a problem with "Finals". As a non native english speaker it just sounds wrong to me. I will now go to my beds and take a naps.
They take very little time to do and hopefully will allow me to retire without any major embarrassing moments.
I am also happy to see that someone else has a problem with "Finals". As a non native english speaker it just sounds wrong to me. I will now go to my beds and take a naps.
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The word AIRMANSHIP comes to mind
Let the slagging begin...
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I'm trying to introduce a debate.
If the wheels were 'seen' at 1500 then presumably they would have been missed at the 'last look' as well
Of course I have seen the Spanair details. I still say it comes down to checklists and proper checklist discipline.
Ford cortina, I've heard of airmanship thanks
How can you be sure?
How many wheels-ups have 'seen' three greens at 1500'?
Of course I have seen the Spanair details. I still say it comes down to checklists and proper checklist discipline.
Ford cortina, I've heard of airmanship thanks
Do you think that in every accident caused by the aircraft not being in the correct config, the crew had just not read out any checks? Of course they had.
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It never hurts to run your own routine double-check, but maybe best do this silently and internally for your own satisfaction and confidence, lest your purpose be questioned or misunderstood
As told to me by the late, great B.J Snook.
Situation;
A priest and a rabbi are sharing a compartment on a train. They naturally have an amicable discussion on Theology until the train slows for the rabbi's stop.
As the rabbi stands up he quickly touches his forehead, lower abdomen, left of his waist and right of his waist in a continuous gesture. The priest is transfixed! "Bejasus!" he exclaims, in the cod Irish accent usually reserved for such occasions, " I had no idea dat men of yer persuasion made the soign of the Holy Cross".
The rabbi paused, looking puzzled, but as he stepped onto the platform he replied over his shoulder, " Oy Father! Dat vos not de zine of de Holy Cross, I only check oi'f not left anytyhink!
"...Spektakles, Testackles, Vollet and Votch!"
Amen!
Seriously though, is it ever sensible to start a take-off roll without a last personal glance at orientation, flaps, trim and Vr (sensible), or to pass 500ft without a final look at landing flap, three greens?
It probably ain't necessary to blab it out loud- tho most of the FOs I know seem to regard it as a confirmation of their own similar private check...so what harm is done?
At least, I'd hope they do - Never forget the basics!
BJ. Thanks. And for a very great deal more than that.
As told to me by the late, great B.J Snook.
Situation;
A priest and a rabbi are sharing a compartment on a train. They naturally have an amicable discussion on Theology until the train slows for the rabbi's stop.
As the rabbi stands up he quickly touches his forehead, lower abdomen, left of his waist and right of his waist in a continuous gesture. The priest is transfixed! "Bejasus!" he exclaims, in the cod Irish accent usually reserved for such occasions, " I had no idea dat men of yer persuasion made the soign of the Holy Cross".
The rabbi paused, looking puzzled, but as he stepped onto the platform he replied over his shoulder, " Oy Father! Dat vos not de zine of de Holy Cross, I only check oi'f not left anytyhink!
"...Spektakles, Testackles, Vollet and Votch!"
Amen!
Seriously though, is it ever sensible to start a take-off roll without a last personal glance at orientation, flaps, trim and Vr (sensible), or to pass 500ft without a final look at landing flap, three greens?
It probably ain't necessary to blab it out loud- tho most of the FOs I know seem to regard it as a confirmation of their own similar private check...so what harm is done?
At least, I'd hope they do - Never forget the basics!
BJ. Thanks. And for a very great deal more than that.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 3rd Mar 2010 at 00:01.
For those with blind faith in written checklists, try this sometime - preferably on the 4th sector of a busy day at the end of a busy week. Start reading the wrong checklist and listen to the automated response. Something like on approach read the before start challenges and for 'speedbrake' instead of getting 'armed, green light' you will get 'down detent'. You won't catch everyone with this, but I guarantee you will catch someone.
Hence, a minimalist killer-item memory check is an insurance policy against complacency. The old Fokker F27 had a pretty comprehensive factory checklist but it was deficient in that there was no last-minute check of pneumatic pressure before takeoff. So, as I learned the hard way, if you had a leak you could end up with a braking problem if you needed to reject, or the inability to retract the gear after takeoff. Also, the choice of water methanol on or off could prove critical to whether the old girl would get out of some short runways or clear the rocks. There was also a choice of fuel trimmer setting which could make quite a difference to power available, particularly on a 'dry' takeoff. Flap setting was also critical depending on runway or obstacles. With a large disparity in V1 depending on whether flaps zero or 16 were required. Setting V1 for flap 16 but being configured for flap zero guaranteed a nice dose of stick shaker as it became airborne. Because we often did 8 or more sectors per day in tropical conditions it was easy to become jaded with the familiarity of it all. Flying with low-time F/Os who rarely called or corrected errors meant any mistake was possible.
So I created my own little chant for line-up. It was 'air, water, flaps, trim' which I know did raise some F/O eyebrows but there were a couple of occasions when it picked up a potential problem or wrong configuration. And I still do 'landing flap 3 greens' on short final. Let the F/O think I am losing my marbles, but by mumbling it aloud, it draws him/her into the plot as well. It will be on the CVR, too.
Hence, a minimalist killer-item memory check is an insurance policy against complacency. The old Fokker F27 had a pretty comprehensive factory checklist but it was deficient in that there was no last-minute check of pneumatic pressure before takeoff. So, as I learned the hard way, if you had a leak you could end up with a braking problem if you needed to reject, or the inability to retract the gear after takeoff. Also, the choice of water methanol on or off could prove critical to whether the old girl would get out of some short runways or clear the rocks. There was also a choice of fuel trimmer setting which could make quite a difference to power available, particularly on a 'dry' takeoff. Flap setting was also critical depending on runway or obstacles. With a large disparity in V1 depending on whether flaps zero or 16 were required. Setting V1 for flap 16 but being configured for flap zero guaranteed a nice dose of stick shaker as it became airborne. Because we often did 8 or more sectors per day in tropical conditions it was easy to become jaded with the familiarity of it all. Flying with low-time F/Os who rarely called or corrected errors meant any mistake was possible.
So I created my own little chant for line-up. It was 'air, water, flaps, trim' which I know did raise some F/O eyebrows but there were a couple of occasions when it picked up a potential problem or wrong configuration. And I still do 'landing flap 3 greens' on short final. Let the F/O think I am losing my marbles, but by mumbling it aloud, it draws him/her into the plot as well. It will be on the CVR, too.
My opinion; great idea to do it, bad idea to say it out loud.
It's a real pain if someone mumbles something about gear or flap at a critical phase and you have to think "what was that? Is there something abnormal about the gear? ...nope....looks like three greens to me....oh he must have just been doing his personal check....cool"
I once called "landing checks thanks" and at that moment the localiser failed...that got our attention for the next few seconds as we sorted out what we were doing and came visual all sort of at the same time, we proceeded to land without doing the landing checks....first up we were distracted at just the wrong moment by a failure, then by getting visual, then by radio calls, then by a nasty crosswind....I'd like to think I would be wise to it now but it was a lesson for me and aircraft definately do land without having done the checklists. We got away with it scott-free, the only reason we knew we didn't do them is because we talked about the approach once parked at the gate.
It's a real pain if someone mumbles something about gear or flap at a critical phase and you have to think "what was that? Is there something abnormal about the gear? ...nope....looks like three greens to me....oh he must have just been doing his personal check....cool"
Do you think that in every accident caused by the aircraft not being in the correct config, the crew had just not read out any checks? Of course they had.
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(or did the gear retract itself after you put the landing checklist away? )
And I've also seen flaps indicate running during the take off role.
The former was probably an indication error, the later certainly was, but we went around for the first and stopped for the second. So if its all the same to you, I'll keep including flight phase critical stuff in my scan.
pb