'Last look' checks - for/against?

[Sciolistes]

IMHO, short finals or lining-up for departure are places to be looking out the window and concentrating on handling the aeroplane. Am I in a minority of one who feels that these impromptu self-created extra checks just get in the way?

I totally agree it is a bad idea to get distracted and start some kind of paranoid ad-hoc scan at a critical moment. All the killer items are part off the checklists, but checklists can fail to get done. I use two simple triggers. If the chart clip is flat against the control wheel the before takeoff checklist hasn't been completed. It takes but a nanosecond on receipt of a line up clearance. The second is at 1,000 RA, "CCG", Checks complete, Cleared to land, G/A altitude set. Works for any approach.

[plain-plane]

"All" important checklist or flows is followed up by a bit of OCD.

I take great pleasure in spotting what it is the other driver is double-checking
True,- not everybody is doing it, however most are...

[Microburst2002]

I think it is good airmanship, even in highly ergonomic cockpits such as the 320, with Take of and Landing Memos and the way the checklist are designed, so you check take off config well before the rush of the cleared for inmediate take off, or after a similar rush in short final.
Maybe one day the Memo has some important blue line pending and in the rush you miss it.
Both checklists and actions triggered by conditions or other actions can be missed by unexpected events, such as LOC failure or just an ATC ususual transmission or instruction. So the late checks are a good idea, and good airmanship in my opinion.

But this "home made" checks have to be made always. Specially when things are rushing. Otherwise they are quite useless, as the normal checks and call outs are enough.

As Framer says, keep it to yourselves, or every FO would have to learn each Captain's home made last checks. Please don't mumble nor say alound things about flaps, gear, spoilers in short final. It is distracting.

cheers

[strikemaster82]

Please don't mumble nor say alound things about flaps, gear, spoilers in short final. It is distracting.

You have summed it up nicely. Personally I always ensure the vital things are there, silently! and I would never presume to suggest no-one else should.

However, there is nothing worse than half-hearing someone else's mantra as it may be done at a different time to your own and you find yourself thinking "yes thank-you the gear is still down, the spoilers are still armed" when you would prefer to be listening to the r/t...

In my original posting I was in fact referring to the muttering aloud brigade. As I am not qualified at mind-reading I have no idea how often my colleagues check and re-check the same items, nor do I care, just as long as I don't have to hear it.

Feel free to tell me if the gear isn't down yet though

[Mach E Avelli]

Strikemaster, 'having to hear it' probably depends on whether you are the Capt or the F/O. As the Capt you could probably tell him to shut up, but this could be a CLM if you are the F/O. (CLM = career limiting move).
Agreed that there are some nonsensical statements and chants made in the cockpit. My pet hate with one bloke was - upon becoming visual -always said: 'for the threshold'. Where else were we headed? Another gripe is with those who make a lengthy speech about the status of the instruments when taxying - the old 'turning left skidding right, compasses decreasing' mantra. Another useless one is 'inbound, no flags'. I would rather hear a statement like 'established, descending to...' to give me comfort that we both agree about how low we can go. Talking about instrument status is hardly necessary with modern warning systems. But I'm gonna stick with 'landing flap 3 greens' and the poor old F/O is just gonna live with it.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

I do them on both line-up and short final, but silently. The distraction of the "mumbling checks" is made worse in today's international fight decks. Especially during crucial phases of flight, please stick to SOP calls! It can be very confusing otherwise.

Besides the usual flap/spoiler/trim/gear checks, I double check I'm on the runway! Compass check alone will not catch a taxiway lineup. What it will catch is lining up on a runway from distant intersection - facing the wrong way! I'm sure it's been done after weeks of prevailing winds and a sudden runway change...

P

[framer]

But I'm gonna stick with 'landing flap 3 greens' and the poor old F/O is just gonna live with it.

Yes yes everyone knows that you're the Captain and you have power and authority and all that jazz, but jeez wayne....don't you care that you're annoying to fly with?

mumble mumble gear mumble flaps mumble green

[Basil]

If it's what you do, don't change it.
Nothing wrong with a quick personal scan before take off and landing - bloody good idea.
Try to do it silently because, if it's non SOP, it may confuse the other crewmember or even interrupt THEIR little 'comfort check'.

I say again: If you have a little personal safety habit you've built up over years of safe flying, don't drop it - that habit may be why you haven't had an incident.

[FE Hoppy]

Anyone who hasn't been tired enought to screw up a check list hasn't lived. If one of these self created safety checks catches one item once then they are worth putting up with. And I'm not too proud to admit Ive seen it happen.

[shortleg]

Three times in the last year I have had a laser light shone at me during approach. On two of those occasions the distraction was enough to cause us to miss something. Luckily nothing major and subsequently corrected. I would advocate a (quiet) personal scan as good airmanship.

[John Boeman]

My opinion; great idea to do it, bad idea to say it out loud.

In a nutshell!
I find it somewhat distracting if an FO loudly runs through his particular pre-line up chant after putting away the before T.O. checklist, especially when it doesn't contain anything extra over what he has just finished reading out.

Fully agree that a quiet check of "the killers" is vital, and I will always pass on that advice.

[FullWings]

...Personally I always ensure the vital things are there, silently! and I would never presume to suggest no-one else should.

Agreed. Verbalising non-SOP checks at critical phases of flight can lead to confusion.

I remember on a previous type, one of the pre-takeoff checks was a challenge of "Flaps?" to which the response, under normal circumstances, would have been "Five" (say) and "Green" (all the LE deployed, otherwise "Red" = no go). Simple. But no: many had their own little mantra, all subtly different from the others. Sometimes it was verbal diarrhoea: "Five, green, five on the card, five in the box, five fingers on my hand, five is my number, here's a fiver...", etc. All a bit distracting, especially when mumbled into the headset in a busy ATC environment.

IMHO nothing wrong in saying, clearly, "I'm just going to check the config. before we go; don't mind me." or words to that effect. It stops you wasting time trying to understand WTF the other pilot is failing to communicate to you.

[Kiltie]

3 years ago at 400 feet my light aircraft mnemonic checks done silently in my head saved me from landing with an incomplete landing checklist on a 70 ton jet. Our goof for not completing the checklist and getting distracted but the old habits closed the hole in the Swiss cheese. Non SOP but airmanship.


G-DAVE

I sympathise with your frustration. FinalS is a grammar cancer that has spread throughout an alarming amount of pilots.

Many people are now parking their aeroplanes (or should that be aircraftS)in a hangEr.

Is anyone willing to come up with an emoticon to show a revolver to one's own head?

[nbairlines]

+1 for 411A

Trim, Flaps, Spoilers. Very usefull and did safe my day once.

not only for the oldtimers

[exeng]

Always silently check flaps and trim before line up, and flaps and gear before landing.

To be honest I silently check a lot of things all through the flight because I was taught a long time ago that doing so would likely see me through to retirement in one piece.

So far so good - but too early to count my blessings.


Regards
Exeng

[169west]

B707 last check, with the F/E reading...

Before Takeoff (ALL)

- Transponder, Doppler and DMEs: DECLARE
- Cabin Notification: DECLARE
- Landing Lights: DECLARE
Engineer's Takeoff Checklist: COMPLETE
- Anti Skid: ON
- Speedbrake: FORWARD
- Stabilizer Trim: DECLARE
- Wing Flaps: (), INDICATE (), GREEN LIGHTS, IN DETENT
- Compassess: CHECKED
TAKEOFF CHECKLIST: COMPLETE
____________________________________

Landing Checklist (ALL)

- Speedbrake: FULL FORWARD IN DETENT
- Landing Gear: DOWN, 3 GREEN LIGHTS
- Wing Flaps: (), INDICATE (), GREEN LIGHTS IN DETENT
- Yaw Damper lights: OFF
Pilots' Approach Checklist: COMPLETE
- Antiskid: 4 RELEASES
- Engine Ignition: FLIGHT START
- Turbos: MAX TWO
- Hydaulic Pressure and Quantity: NORMAL
Engineer's Landing Checklist: COMPLETE
LANDING CHECKLIST: COMPLETE
____________________________________

[NVpilot]

B707 last check, with the F/E reading...

Not required or needed on the scarebus, we just push a few buttons and go.

[boingdrvr]

"Not required or needed on the scarebus, we just push a few buttons and go."


Ahh yes. The result of 40 years of technological innovation culminating in the loss of the third set of eyes also known as the Second Officer.

Ain't progress great!!