Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

AF447

Closed Thread

Old 4th Jun 2009, 23:52
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brazil
Age: 47
Posts: 21
Quote:
By the way, French Air Force has just reported that most of the debris found by SAR didn't belong to AF 447. Fuel patch most probably comes from some ship dumping tank residue. Doesn't help.
Do you have a source for this at all? Who did they report this to?
A high-ranked FAB official just confirmed on TV that those debris did not belong to AF 447, including the fuel patch. And the pallets used by that flight where made of aluminum, not wood.
Diver-BR is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:00
  #22 (permalink)  

Sun worshipper
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 494
I didn't want to participate in the rather ghoulish and idiotic mass of speculations by an awful number of self-appointed armchair accident investigation experts but as Danny changed the rules, here is some interesting factual information given by the French France2 channel.

Somehow, they managed to get the ACARS summary print-outs and had someone very briefly comment on them.

Here is how to get it :
france2.fr
then click on the "INFO" tab
then on the very small "JT" tab underneath (meaning journal televise)
then chose the 20 H - that's the eight o'clock news.
The two pages are quite clearly readable on time frames 5.50 and 6.45.and you don't need to understand French !
But they don't seem to have the complete list of faults.
What these messages show, however, is that events happened quickly, so people who know the 330 can now have a better picture of the events preceding the disappearance of flight 447.
Lemurian is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:03
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,936
" there was inconsistency between the different measured airspeeds. Therefore and without prejudging the final outcome of the investigation, the data available leads Airbus to remind operators what are the applicable operational recommendations in case of unreliable airspeed indication. "

Discuss
Litebulbs is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:08
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Japan
Age: 57
Posts: 7
Question for A330 Rated Pilots !

Dear all !
Just to understand I think quite reasonable that they experienced a "Doble flame out" during the severe turbulence. Since they were flying on FL 330/350 they were unable to start the APU ( Elec Emergency ) and must fly with Stand-by instruments without Radar. Is this correct ? If so it sounds quite mandatory do Descent in order to start the APU. At night, with stand-by instruments and without Radar and flying inside the CB it seems a reasonable explanation of what happened. It makes sense ?
Thanks
CaptLoko is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:20
  #25 (permalink)  

aka Capt PPRuNe
 
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Brief screengrab from above mentioned article. Sorry about quality but I'm sure someone with better skils will post it all eventually:









Danny is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:25
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NNW of Antipodes
Age: 75
Posts: 1,328
AF447 reported INTOL at 0133z, next TASIL ETA 0223z, FL350 GS 543KT.

If the above is accepted as matter of record, then the ACARS 0214z position at 3 34 40N 30 33 28W placed the a/c on track at 331nm past INTOL at an average speed made good of 484KT. The much mentioned ACARS crew report at 0200z indicating heavy turbulence was 27min past INTOL, and assuming that 540KT had been maintained to this point, then over the next 14 minutes the average GS was 385KT.

Without speculation as to what may or may not have happened after 0214, the a/c was at that point most likely still heading 028T (046M) and should structural damage have resulted in the break-up of the a/c, debris would normally be found in an arc +/- 30 degrees of the final heading and at point from the last known position based on the expected trajectory of individual items (if more than one).

No one seems to have asked why the original debris reports were in positions that didn't follow any of the basic rules mentioned above.

It would seem that for those reported debris position(s) to be correct, the a/c would need to have made a right 180 degree turn - something I doubt would have happened in the circumstances. A 5 - 15 degree bank would seem not to be a controllable option in what may have been CB cell shear.

mm43
mm43 is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,609
On marine debris, and the difficulty in finding debris related to AF447 - to gauge the task facing those trying to find the aircraft, the following link may be of interest:

Great Pacific Garbage Patch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The location of the 0214 message, as compared to the closest "island" - the rocks of St Peter & St Paul, 322km away - from: 3 34 40N 30 33 28W to: St Peter and St Paul Rocks - Google Maps


A slightly higher-quality screen-grab (click):



Curious to hear from an Airbus engineer (ie without speculation) what they all mean.



(I have to say that this thread is refreshing, having actually read the previous one from the Quest school of journalism.)

Last edited by Re-Heat; 5th Jun 2009 at 01:29.
Re-Heat is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:45
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 64
...the a/c was at that point most likely still heading 028T (046M) and should structural damage have resulted in the break-up of the a/c, debris would normally be found in an arc +/- 30 degrees of the final heading ...
For what it's worth, I've been watching the ship tracker site, and there was a cluster of ships that lingered around the equator at 30W. That is where the news reports have said debris was found, and it is to the right and back of the flight path projected by your suggestion.

Ship locations

If they have in fact found debris at that location, then the aircraft would have diverted from its projected course.
ST27 is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 00:57
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 82
This is an opinion extracted from a captain of Iberia who flies A346 usually routing EZE-MAD.
pilotosdeiberia.com :: Ver tema - Pedida contacto radar Airbus 330 de Air France en Brasil
The A330/340 hash two independent radar systems that share the plate of the antenna, so the failure of one does not imply a loss of another. The radome is partly protected by metal bands that are just to attract lightnings.

Moreover, in the latest versions of both A340 radar can operate simultaneously and independently, each sweeping a different portion of space in AUTO TILT.

Radar failure is unlikely. Also, if you have the misfortune of having a radar failure at night you turn back as close as possible and go back from where you came or by where you know for sure that there are no clouds, you can optionally launch fuel to climb and evade CB, but that does not guarantee you will not hit any of the great CB, or you can ask for help to other aircrafts and follow them visually or with the TCAS. Anything but get deeper into the unknown.

The plane may have entered the storm because they didn´t see it, and I think the radar worked well.

The options for this are two. Or both drivers had their eyes closed, something unlikely and almost suicidal to cross the ITCZ, or otherwise information of Wx did not appear on screen, which is more logical and normal to say, because it happened to me several times.
agusaleale is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 01:01
  #30 (permalink)  

Sun worshipper
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 494
The ACARS summary

This is what I could gather :
at 0210Z : from bottom to top :
- AUTO FLT AP OFF
-F/CTL ALTN LAW
- FlAG ON Capt PFD
- FLAG ON F/O PFD
- AUTO FLT ATHR OFF
- NAV TCAS FAULT
- FLAG ON CAPT PFD
- FLAG ON F/O PFD
- F/CTL RUD TRV LIM FAULT
- EFCS2...1..EFCS1...AFS
- EFCS1...X2..EFCS2X

at 0211Z :
- FLAG ON CAPT PFD
- FLAG ON F/O PFD

at 0212z:
- NAV ADR DISAGREE
- ISIS ....ISIS
- IR2...1,EFCS1X, IR1, IR3

at 0213Z :
- F/CTL PRIM1 FAULT
- F/CTL SEC1 FAULT
- AFS 1 FMGEC1

at 0214z:
- MAINTENANCE STATUS
- ADVISORY.../...
Is this a chain of events (meaning related ? ) ?
Is it indicative of a major electrical fault ? of crew manipulation ? a fire ? or a structural failure ?
If the order of the faults is accurate, is the A/P disconnect from the pilots or is it an indication of an extreme upset or one or several sensors ?
Your opinions, please.

Last edited by Lemurian; 5th Jun 2009 at 01:22. Reason: spelling AND OMITTED DATA
Lemurian is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 01:21
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 50
Posts: 1,687
My interpretation of the screen caps

MAINTENANCE STATUS
MAINTENANCE STATUS
1,EFCS1,AFS,
X2,EFCSX,,,,,
FLAG ON CAPT PFD
FLAG ON F/O PFD
NAV ADR Disagree
1,,,,,,,ISIS (22F??
1,EFCS1X,IR1,IR3
CTL PRIM 1 Fault
CTL SEC 1 Fault

MAINTENANCE STATUS
1,,,,,,,FMGS????
ADVISORY


MAINTENANCE STATUS
VSC X2,,,,,,,LAV CONF
AUTO FLT AP OFF
AUTO FLT
CTL ALTN LAW
FLAG ON CAPT PFD
FLAG ON F/O PFD
AUTO FLT A/THR OFF
NAV TCAS FAULT
FLAG ON CAPT PFD
FLAG ON F/O PFD
CTL RDO TRV LIM FAULT


The last group appears to be page 2 of 3

Last edited by vapilot2004; 5th Jun 2009 at 01:34. Reason: Reversed order per Lemurian's GMT observation
vapilot2004 is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 01:23
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,067
Originally Posted by Lemurian View Post
Is this a chain of events (meaning related ? ) ?
Is it indicative of a major electrical fault ? of crew manipulation ? a fire ? or a structural failure ?
If the order of the faults is accurate, is the A/P disconnect from the pilots or is it an indication of an extreme upset or one or several sensors ?
Your opinions, please.
I would say, yes, related faults. I'd also not put any great store by the precise sequencing within each 'group' - ACARS may be reporting them in its own order, not necessarily the order that they actually occurred in. (If two systems were to fail simultaneously, for example, ACARS still has to send one first.)

I wouldn't be surprised if a common cause for the 0210Z "group" was found to be an airspeed system malfunction. I believe that airspeed miscompares will drop the aircraft into Alt Law, kick the AT and AP off and would not be surprised if the rudder limiter posts a fault when it loses the airspeed data needed to schedule the limit with speed (I know of a case where that would happen on another type).
That only leaves the various 'FLAG' messages - and I'd imagine that faulty/failing air data sources would be flagged on the PFDs, so that could be the source too - and the TCAS message. I would not be at all surprised to find that an airdata error could trigger a TCAS fault of some kind.
Mad (Flt) Scientist is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 01:26
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: My Stringy Brane
Posts: 378












Machaca is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 01:26
  #34 (permalink)  

Sun worshipper
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 494
you have to start from the bottom of the page and the time flags are on the left of the messages with the dates and the zulu times .
The two bottom messages are from the previous flight.
Lemurian is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 01:37
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York / Southern France
Age: 64
Posts: 84
Diver BR wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
By the way, French Air Force has just reported that most of the debris found by SAR didn't belong to AF 447. Fuel patch most probably comes from some ship dumping tank residue. Doesn't help.
Do you have a source for this at all? Who did they report this to?
A high-ranked FAB official just confirmed on TV that those debris did not belong to AF 447, including the fuel patch. And the pallets used by that flight where made of aluminum, not wood.
Without links to sources, this is still confusing. Here:

DISPARITION DE L'AF 447 : Les avions français n'ont toujours rien découvert, actualité Défense ouverte : Le Point

a French airforce officer involved in the search is directly quoted as saying that *in the sector allocated to French SAR*, what little has been found does not come from any aircraft. He emphasises that the French and Brazilian forces, though co-ordinated, are searching different sectors.

Earlier today there were French and Brazilian newspaper reports (which, true to form, just referenced each other as sources....) that some aircraft wreckage had been recovered by Brazilian SAR from its sector, wreckage including a part of a baggage container:

AIRBUS A330 : Le Brésil annonce la récupération d'un morceau de soute, actualité Société : Le Point

So, is there a *link to a source* clarifying whether both French and Brazilian SAR now say they have have found nothing, or whether it's just the French who have found nothing, with the Brazilians having made a potential find of part of AF 447?

AGB
[just adding, as a French language note, that in an earlier post on the other AF 447 thread, I mis-translated French "assiette" as "attitude", whereas I'm now told that, for aviation, it means precisely "angle of pitch".]
AGBagb is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 02:03
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
Age: 60
Posts: 150
Looking at the posted faults i'm curious...

I know (from 411 here) that the 330 has various safeguards built in to protect the airframe in normal law. Not fully understanding the complexities or variation when switched to alternate law I have 2 questions.

1) Can you tell if its abnormal alternate law (unusual attitude) or ALTLAW:PROT Lost (computer issues if my understanding is correct). From what I gather the flight control modifications are a bit different in each. It would also seem to indicate if an upset was the trigger for the AP disconnect or came later....

2) the last fault is the CTL RUD TRV LMT FAULT, is this an indicator that the control limit has faulted out or an indication of excessive rudder travel. I know that rudder use at high speeds is a very delicate undertaking and that the software normally dampens inputs. From what I read on the locked post under abnormal alt yaw is mechanical and controlled by direct law...is that correct?
SLFinAZ is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 02:15
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: merseyside
Posts: 81
Bbc - Debris Not From Air France

BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Debris 'not from Air France jet'

Debris recovered from the Atlantic by Brazilian search teams does not come from a lost Air France jet, a Brazilian air force official has said.
Brig Ramon Borges Cardoso contradicted earlier reports that debris had been found, saying "no material from the plane has been recovered".
A wooden cargo pallet was taken from the sea, but the Airbus A330 had no wooden pallets on board.









The above has just been released by the Bbc .

Can i ask What would happen if the aircraft or black box's are not recovered or ever traced in relation to the investigation into this accident ?


I mean do the Air accident investigators still proceed with their investigation when they have no actual physical evidence ?

Could they actually issue a report ?


Im no expert but surely there are legal ramifications for things like familys getting death certificates etc



dicksorchard is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 02:41
  #38 (permalink)  

Sun worshipper
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 494
For the time being, we only have a few factual informations :
- The flight was at FL 350
- Just after 0200z, the captain informs base that he's experiencing some serious turbulence (we don't know the exact terms)
- A weather study confirms some active convection and flight 447 is in the middle of a "bad" zone.
- A summary of the maintenance messages has been released.

Now, these messages (and I stress that they're only the "title" of the actual message ) can be expanded as they could give us , if not the detailed fault, the faulty component, and for that we have to use the ATA list of chapters appearing on the left of the title :For instance, 2283....FLAG on CAPT PFD points toward a warning linked with ATA 22, i.e AUTO FLIGHT. and the ...213100206 ADVISORY message on top of the last picture provided by Machaca relates to ATA 21 Air Conditioning and pressurization, item 31 : Pressurization control... 00206 should be the exact value of the code.
That is very probably the origin of the CAB Vertical Speed that some papers have reported.

As you see, quite a lot of information could be derived from thse sheets.
Problem is, as a pilot I don't have access to the maintenance manuals and the complete ATA listings.
Furthermore, it could be interesting to go back to each item and plot its power source from the electrical chapter and see whether there is one Bus that could be identified...
With the sort of FCOM we have been provided, it's going to be rather long.
Lemurian is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 03:57
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SoCal
Age: 59
Posts: 31
Question please

I'll provide my credentials to any moderator on request.

Does the ACARS line item ISIS at 0211 indicate a fault in the Integrated Standby Instrument System, or that it is what is remaining? I suspect the former, please confirm.
etesting2000 is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2009, 04:09
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bray, IE
Posts: 459
The following list is a reproduction of a document displayed originally on France2 television (Edition 20H du Jeudi 4 Juin 2009). It has been checked for accuracy against the original facsimile issued to France2 and is believed to be correct. While this document has not been officially released by Air France its authenticity is not disputed by the airline.


When this reproduction was originally posted to this forum (June 5th, 04:09 BST) it contained a number of typographical inaccuracies. The most significant error was in copying the ATA section code for the 0211Z "ISIS" report. The inaccuracy was brought to my attention during the late afternoon on 5th and a replacement posted at approximately 20:00. A further typographical inaccuracy existed in the 0213Z "FMGEC1" report where "FMGKC1" had been typed.

On June 18th a copy of the facsimile presented by France2 was made available. On further comparing the reproduction, the following corrections were made:
  • Page "29" changed to "14" on the second page.
  • "REG" changed to "MSG" in two places (header field)
  • "DEN" changed to "DBN" in the previous flight report line
  • "??OT ENT" changed to "SECT.ENT" in two places (header field)
  • A single digit, originally characterised by a question mark to denote uncertainty, was identified in the previous flight report as the number "8"
  • A forward slash was added above the words "Libelle succint" in two places
  • A zero was removed from the sequence code in the 0210Z "FLAG ON CAPT PFD" report.

See related posting addressing queries about the document's authenticity on June 17th.

Last edited by selfin; 18th Jun 2009 at 19:55. Reason: Final corrections made by comparison with a printout of the originating facsimile.
selfin is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service