Challenger Crash Almaty
Interesting that the few photos available show the vertical stab upside down but the engines are "pointing" in the opposite direction to what one would expect given the position of the vert.stab.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
to be honest, it just sounds to me like icing.
I was twice in the last month in ALA and had to fight the weather.
One of the problems is pollution in ALA. ( Smog ) These little particles in the air are ideal condensation points for FZFG for example. No or almost no wind makes it even worse.
That is for example why you got these poor visibilities in ALA so often.
The other day I was surprised myself, I took over an airplane which just came in and at my walkaround I did not see any ice. Visibility was around 1200m and temperature slightly below zero, no percepitation. I think it was about M6. Then I inspected the wing from above and was very surprised to see so much frost accumulated right where the spoilers are. You could not see it from the front or any other place then from the window inside.
We did De-Ice and left the place.
Very dangerous weather in Almaty and a unforgiving wing at the challenger jet.
Also do not forget, it was at night time, a night flight for the 2-man crew and duty times coming to a limit. There was not a lot of time for De-Icing either.
HAJ-HKG is very long, especially with a refueling stop.
Just my 2 cents...
to be honest, it just sounds to me like icing.
I was twice in the last month in ALA and had to fight the weather.
One of the problems is pollution in ALA. ( Smog ) These little particles in the air are ideal condensation points for FZFG for example. No or almost no wind makes it even worse.
That is for example why you got these poor visibilities in ALA so often.
The other day I was surprised myself, I took over an airplane which just came in and at my walkaround I did not see any ice. Visibility was around 1200m and temperature slightly below zero, no percepitation. I think it was about M6. Then I inspected the wing from above and was very surprised to see so much frost accumulated right where the spoilers are. You could not see it from the front or any other place then from the window inside.
We did De-Ice and left the place.
Very dangerous weather in Almaty and a unforgiving wing at the challenger jet.
Also do not forget, it was at night time, a night flight for the 2-man crew and duty times coming to a limit. There was not a lot of time for De-Icing either.
HAJ-HKG is very long, especially with a refueling stop.
Just my 2 cents...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Uranus
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Engine3,
Good points........I was recently in Uralsk and Atyrau in Kazakhstan in atrocious weather.
I fly a 604 and in icing conditions it gives me the creeps.....not that we know yet the cause of this tragedy, we'll have to wait and see but I won't be surprised if icing is a factor.
Consider also that this aircraft had just done a long sector and therefore was cold soaked. Terrible event, deep sympathy for all involved
Good points........I was recently in Uralsk and Atyrau in Kazakhstan in atrocious weather.
I fly a 604 and in icing conditions it gives me the creeps.....not that we know yet the cause of this tragedy, we'll have to wait and see but I won't be surprised if icing is a factor.
Consider also that this aircraft had just done a long sector and therefore was cold soaked. Terrible event, deep sympathy for all involved
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the City by the Bay
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cold soaked?
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/71...scription.html
-quote-
The physics behind the frosting phenomenon is well known. After a certain length of flight time at cruising altitudes, wing tank fuel temperature can reach -40 degrees F. When the wing fuel reaches such low temperatures it is commonly referred to as "cold soaked". For reasons of aerodynamic stability, relatively warm "belly" fuel on an aircraft is typically burned first. This often leaves the "cold soaked" fuel undisturbed in the wings during short duration flights. This "cold soaked" fuel, when remaining in contact with the wing surface, can result in non-environmental frosting upon landing. This is particularly problematic, if a particular airline route or schedule of flights should involve a number of short hops to pick up addition passengers or cargo. Often these stops are required to be of short duration for economic reasons. The non-environmental frosting can prevent an aircraft from maintaining a quick turnabout on these short hops and may cut into the benefits or gains that may otherwise be realized.
The desire for a quick turnabout from landing to takeoff can conflict with the necessities of dealing with such non-environmental frosting occurring after landing. Although an airline may allot only fifteen or twenty minutes for a given stop, a heavy coat of frost and ice may rapidly form on the top surface of the wings after only five or ten minutes on the ground. FAA regulations may then require the captain of the airplane to either wait for ambient airport weather conditions to eliminate the frost and ice formations or actively have the wings de-iced. Each of these solutions requires a penalty of time and money to implement. Many de-icing procedures can carry with them environmental concerns as well. Therefore, current approaches towards the removal of non-environmental icing often are not compatible with the airline industries goals involving scheduling, cost savings, and time management.
-unquote-
Sad someone died. Looking at the pictures, seems a miracle anyone survived that.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/71...scription.html
-quote-
The physics behind the frosting phenomenon is well known. After a certain length of flight time at cruising altitudes, wing tank fuel temperature can reach -40 degrees F. When the wing fuel reaches such low temperatures it is commonly referred to as "cold soaked". For reasons of aerodynamic stability, relatively warm "belly" fuel on an aircraft is typically burned first. This often leaves the "cold soaked" fuel undisturbed in the wings during short duration flights. This "cold soaked" fuel, when remaining in contact with the wing surface, can result in non-environmental frosting upon landing. This is particularly problematic, if a particular airline route or schedule of flights should involve a number of short hops to pick up addition passengers or cargo. Often these stops are required to be of short duration for economic reasons. The non-environmental frosting can prevent an aircraft from maintaining a quick turnabout on these short hops and may cut into the benefits or gains that may otherwise be realized.
The desire for a quick turnabout from landing to takeoff can conflict with the necessities of dealing with such non-environmental frosting occurring after landing. Although an airline may allot only fifteen or twenty minutes for a given stop, a heavy coat of frost and ice may rapidly form on the top surface of the wings after only five or ten minutes on the ground. FAA regulations may then require the captain of the airplane to either wait for ambient airport weather conditions to eliminate the frost and ice formations or actively have the wings de-iced. Each of these solutions requires a penalty of time and money to implement. Many de-icing procedures can carry with them environmental concerns as well. Therefore, current approaches towards the removal of non-environmental icing often are not compatible with the airline industries goals involving scheduling, cost savings, and time management.
-unquote-
Sad someone died. Looking at the pictures, seems a miracle anyone survived that.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Choroni, sometimes
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Armchair..
Excellent post. Our SOP in icing conditions are, to put the cold fuel during turnaround out of the wings into center and refuel with "warm" fuel to melt possible wing icing.
Maybe it has nothing to do with this tragic accident.
Excellent post. Our SOP in icing conditions are, to put the cold fuel during turnaround out of the wings into center and refuel with "warm" fuel to melt possible wing icing.
Maybe it has nothing to do with this tragic accident.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
are we forgetting the Colorado Springs (USA) crash of a similiar plane? Head of NBC TV sports onboard...son killed while taking off on a shortish runway and ice covered wing...plane got airborn briefly and crashed.
sevenstrokeroll;
No it has not been missed. I posted the link to an NTSB PPT presentation on post #15. There is plenty on the web including this link to the Montrose accident report.
are we forgetting the Colorado Springs (USA) crash of a similiar plane?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: dubai
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very sad case indeed.
Yes I am aware the accident report is not yet out on this one.
However the CL wing does seem a very unforgiving and particularly vicious wing when contaminated near the stall. What a great shame the manufacturers and authorities are unable to come up with a realistic test to see how an a/c performs at Vr+ with contaminated wings. In actual fact, any pilot of any a/c, who attempts to get airborne with contaminated flying surfaces becomes part of the test flight program.
Yes I am aware the accident report is not yet out on this one.
However the CL wing does seem a very unforgiving and particularly vicious wing when contaminated near the stall. What a great shame the manufacturers and authorities are unable to come up with a realistic test to see how an a/c performs at Vr+ with contaminated wings. In actual fact, any pilot of any a/c, who attempts to get airborne with contaminated flying surfaces becomes part of the test flight program.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VIENNA
Age: 58
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cl&== Crash In Almaty
Hi all, partly living in Almaty and being in the de-icing/anti-icing business for a long time, I am reading all your comments very carefully and also the weather report. Some things are not really fitting:
1. SN in the weather report means "moderate snowfall". If it would be "heavy snow" (SN+), the aeroplane would be not certified for take-off in anyway.
2. The aeroplane received no de-icing/anti-icing treatment. What had been the reason not to treat the aeroplane ? I am training a lot of ground crew & pilots and unfortunately I must say that companies operating business jets or private persons flying them, very often do not spend a single USD in the information and training of their flight crews.
3. I am attending all the international conferences and being member in SAE and so on. Never see business jet operators at such happenings.
4. ALA is in winter not worse than other airports. Basically it would a have a long runwy to gain extra speed. The de-icing/anti-icing service had been audited very short ago and found compatible with EASA, AEA and FAA requirements.
5. The accident seems to be a copy of the one in Moscow-Vnukovo on Feb. 11th this year. Aircraft type, weather and so on are very close to each other. Difference: aeroplane in Moscow had been treated, but the whoel de-icing/anti-icing process is not in good shape at this airport.
Hope that all survivors will recover soon and feel sorry for the family of the killed one.
1. SN in the weather report means "moderate snowfall". If it would be "heavy snow" (SN+), the aeroplane would be not certified for take-off in anyway.
2. The aeroplane received no de-icing/anti-icing treatment. What had been the reason not to treat the aeroplane ? I am training a lot of ground crew & pilots and unfortunately I must say that companies operating business jets or private persons flying them, very often do not spend a single USD in the information and training of their flight crews.
3. I am attending all the international conferences and being member in SAE and so on. Never see business jet operators at such happenings.
4. ALA is in winter not worse than other airports. Basically it would a have a long runwy to gain extra speed. The de-icing/anti-icing service had been audited very short ago and found compatible with EASA, AEA and FAA requirements.
5. The accident seems to be a copy of the one in Moscow-Vnukovo on Feb. 11th this year. Aircraft type, weather and so on are very close to each other. Difference: aeroplane in Moscow had been treated, but the whoel de-icing/anti-icing process is not in good shape at this airport.
Hope that all survivors will recover soon and feel sorry for the family of the killed one.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am attending all the international conferences and being member in SAE and so on. Never see business jet operators at such happenings.
The competant bizjet owner/operators have already attended NBAA conferances/training...surprised this was not known
And then we have this...
What a great shame the manufacturers and authorities are unable to come up with a realistic test to see how an a/c performs at Vr+ with contaminated wings.
All the necessary was done, and the flying characteristics of the particular model in question are very well known.
In fact, as part of the regular maintenance program, these aircraft undergo a mandated wing leading edge polishing from time to time.
Before posting, some might actually like to become familiar with the facts...
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Bielefeld, Germany
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So,
1. Weather conducive to icing
2. Wing very sensitive to contamination
3. Previous accidents which are similar phenomenologically (wing drop shortly after TO)
If the AC was not deiced before takeoff, there has to be a suspicion that this is at least partly due to icing.
The problem with determining wing icing to be a (the) cause is that direct physical evidence is absent. So, given that the phenomenology as reported by some is consistent with asymmetric lift, icing would be an explanation whose strength derives directly from the weakness of evidence for alternative explanations. It is, logically, an explanation by default, and therefore subject to all the difficulties of explaining by default, such as the effectiveness of the search for other explanations. If something else physical is amongst the causes, then finding evidence for that is dependent on how carefully the burnt-out wreckage is investigated.
Kazahkstan is a participant in the Interstate Aviation Committee, which includes the Russian Federation, so I presume the MAK will be investigating.
PBL
1. Weather conducive to icing
2. Wing very sensitive to contamination
3. Previous accidents which are similar phenomenologically (wing drop shortly after TO)
If the AC was not deiced before takeoff, there has to be a suspicion that this is at least partly due to icing.
The problem with determining wing icing to be a (the) cause is that direct physical evidence is absent. So, given that the phenomenology as reported by some is consistent with asymmetric lift, icing would be an explanation whose strength derives directly from the weakness of evidence for alternative explanations. It is, logically, an explanation by default, and therefore subject to all the difficulties of explaining by default, such as the effectiveness of the search for other explanations. If something else physical is amongst the causes, then finding evidence for that is dependent on how carefully the burnt-out wreckage is investigated.
Kazahkstan is a participant in the Interstate Aviation Committee, which includes the Russian Federation, so I presume the MAK will be investigating.
PBL
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kazakhstan
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right! The "SN" in METAR means moderate snowfall. My opinion, it was heavy snowfall (my home place is about 9 nm from ALA airport). I made some photos through window about midnight (it was 3 hours before crash). It was terrible weather conditions near my place.
The RW was covered with dry snow with depth up to 10 mm and braking action was .32 (METAR) The snow looked dry but my sat dish (the tilt about 70) is covered with snow now (it is in 2 days after snow fall).
Normally taxi to RW05 takes 5 min (not more), but if another a/c has landed and is back tracking, it can take up to 20 -25 min.
The RW was covered with dry snow with depth up to 10 mm and braking action was .32 (METAR) The snow looked dry but my sat dish (the tilt about 70) is covered with snow now (it is in 2 days after snow fall).
Normally taxi to RW05 takes 5 min (not more), but if another a/c has landed and is back tracking, it can take up to 20 -25 min.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VIENNA
Age: 58
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree that a lot of US biz operators are going to NBAA. But two things:
- This had been a German registered aeroplane and I talk about the situation under EASA rules.
- The NBAA I am also attending, but the quality of meetings, for my opinion, do not reach SAE level.
- This had been a German registered aeroplane and I talk about the situation under EASA rules.
- The NBAA I am also attending, but the quality of meetings, for my opinion, do not reach SAE level.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VIENNA
Age: 58
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The de-icing/anti-icing agent in ALA is the airport. They have a 70:30 T1 mix (heated) available as well as concentrated T2 fluid. Both from the same manufacturer from Europe.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: where the money is
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The F/O was the PF and under supervision, since new to the aircraft. I've known him for years as a good and professional colleague. The PIC, who survived (as did the CA and the sole PAX), is under shock and does not remember much apart from grabbing the checklist after liftoff and then seeing 90° bank to the right.
Very sad story. He was so happy for his new job...
Let's hope we find out what the cause was and that something can be done to avoid this from happening again.
Very sad story. He was so happy for his new job...
Let's hope we find out what the cause was and that something can be done to avoid this from happening again.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Up in the air
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was at an airport just South of this one yesterday in much the same conditions minus the snow, but with freezing fog. Vis was at mins and not a nice day. The whole area was bad WX.
The Challenger wing is not tolerant of anything on it. Sorry to see another one go down and my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone onboard.
CD
The Challenger wing is not tolerant of anything on it. Sorry to see another one go down and my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone onboard.
CD
Many years ago the B737-200 had the odd incident of undemanded roll immediately after take off. Boeing introduced various measures to address this issue but I recall that in almost every case the rate of rotation was much higher than the (then) recommended rate of 3 degrees per second.
I just wondered what the recommended rotation rate is for the Challenger and whether this had significantly been exceeded on the previous accidents?
I just wondered what the recommended rotation rate is for the Challenger and whether this had significantly been exceeded on the previous accidents?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....just wondered what the recommended rotation rate is for the Challenger and whether this had significantly been exceeded on the previous accidents?
Each manufacturer publishes the recomendations as to rotation rate, yet I have noticed (in training/line flying, actual airlpane) rotation rates commonly exceeded. When a new First officer attempts this with yours truly in Command, they are told right then and there that if this is attempted again, they would be returned to the sim for 'additional training'.
I learned a very long time ago that excessive rotation rates are a recipe for disaster, especially with the older jet transports and during takeoff in heavy rain/snow.
Think I'm wrong?
Find yourself an old B707 and find out, firsthand.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Zone of Alienation
Age: 79
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boy, do you have that right. I fly with so many newbees who want to yank the CRJ right off the ground like a C172. If trimmed correctly, a jet will fly itself off the runway with very little help. Add in Flap 20 takeoff, heavy weight, engine and wing anti-ice on... And I'm fed up with seeing the continuous ignition status message post as a result of overly aggressive rotation technique (or lack thereof).