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Challenger Crash Almaty

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Challenger Crash Almaty

Old 26th Dec 2007, 03:03
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Challenger Crash Almaty

Jet Connection Challenger crashed on take-off here in the early hours, leaving runway 05 and hitting a fence and wall. Initial reports say one passenger killed and pilots and F/a in hospital. The aircraft was operated by Jet Connection (JCX826?) and was flying from HAJ-HKG. The airport was closed for a short time for runway inspection and due to the rescue services involvement. It has now re-opened.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 03:58
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Greetings Harrier46!

Are you ex RAF by an chance? And based in ALA?

Just heard about this incident, would appreciate any updates as we operate CL locally.

Thanks and all the best,
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 04:09
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Indeed but not on Harriers! Aircraft arrived from HAJ for fuel stop at about 0030 local time, then accident was on departure. Apparently destroyed by the impact and subsequent fire.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 04:45
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was there a day or two ago. In GV

A HS from here is there today too.

Been monitoring WX for them, apart from a period of freezing fog, mostly OK.

I go to Kiev in a few days, and they also have been giving freezing fog.

RIP. There but for the grace of God, etc, etc.

Apart from my GPS parking me in the main terminal building, all systems were operational, and very efficient, QNH based ATC. a long direct approach being offered.

SSA
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 08:59
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Kazakh news media report that Lars Windhorst, a famous German businessman, was on board. It seems he is survived, but a co-pilot was killed...
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 09:39
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Latest news

Kazakhstan - A German-owned business jet exploded on Wednesday during take-off at Kazakhstan's Almaty airport, killing the sole passenger and injuring three crew, officials said.
"The plane left the runway and there was an explosion aboard. The reason for the crash is being investigated," said Jamilla Kaimoldina, spokesperson for the Emergency Situations Ministry.
The passenger, whose nationality was not identified, died.
The pilot and co-pilot, who were German, and the Turkish stewardess were hospitalised but their lives were not in danger, a Health Ministry spokesperson said.
The plane, a Canadair Bombardier Challenger bound for Hong Kong, belonged to German company Jet Connection Business Flight, the Emergencies Ministry said.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 10:03
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Looks like they had only one challenger.





Very sad.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 10:32
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Yes. It is D-ANKE. Here is a pic of its wreckage with a dark blue tail:
http://www.vecher.kz/?S=4-200712251200
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 11:23
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Last info - it is D-ARWE. This aircraft was recently purchased by Jet Connection
http://www.myaviation.net/search/sea...=&regnr=D-ARWE
General Prosecutor's Office of Kazakhstan confirms that on their website. D-ARWE had the same colour scheme...

Last edited by Istorik; 28th Dec 2007 at 07:32.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 11:49
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according to a german newsticker bild.de passenger windhorst survived and one of the pilots died
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 12:01
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Does the wreckage look like it's upside down? If so it may have gotten airborne
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 12:20
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Short translation of the report of the Office of Prosecutor of Kazakhstan:
Immediately after take-off the aircraft banked right, the wing struck the ground. Then the aircraft deviated to the right, hit the concrete perimeter fence, crashed, broke up and caught fire.
____________________________________________________________ _
The last 4 Challenger CL-600/604 accidents since 2000 till now were on take-off. Cause all those events - stall immediately after take-off. There were icing at 2 of them and there were a wrong balance of the aircraft at 2 other.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 12:29
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Sir George Cayley
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Sad news, especially at Christmas.

I don't speculate about causes of accidents and I'm sure many will fill the gap over the next few days.

I do however have concerns about CL aircraft take-off accidents.

There have been enough to catch my attention including a fatal at Birminghm (BHX) a couple of years ago and one at Moscow last year(?)

Low temps seem to have been a factor in those. Regardless of the final outcome of investigations into this tragedy, could a positive from this thread be to spread the word to CL pilots about contamination from frost or ice, and the effect it has been shown to have on this model?

Hope the injured make full recoveries.

Sir George Cayley
 
Old 26th Dec 2007, 14:55
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The word has already been spread. This wing does not forgive even the slightest contaminant aboard. How many more accidents can it possibly take before pilots wake to this fact? Not saying that's what happened here, but the report plays like a broken record.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 16:16
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The word has already been spread. This wing does not forgive even the slightest contaminant aboard. How many more accidents can it possibly take before pilots wake to this fact? Not saying that's what happened here, but the report plays like a broken record.
There have also been approach accidents (which didn't kill anyone) with this type. The wing is "hard", (for others, that means no leading-edge slats which bring the stall speed down and which sometimes render stall characteristics more gentle. FIRESYSOK is right -this hard-wing stalls swiftly - see the last report regarding the increase in Stall AOA with only slight contamination).

This thread may have some common elements with the Boston IB de-ice thread where the ethical and operational question was whether others should speak up or not regarding contaminated wings on another aircraft before its departure.

Montrose - NTSB PPT:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2006/Mont...rose, Colorado



China Eastern CRJ200:
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet...J200crash.html


Birmingham Airport, GB:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...pdf_503172.pdf
FSF paper on Birmingham accident:
http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_jan05.pdf


Fredericton Airport, New Brunswick, Canada:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...1/a97h0011.asp

Last edited by PJ2; 26th Dec 2007 at 23:12.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 16:19
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The Actual at the approx time of accident
UAAA 251900z 31003mps 280v350 1100 R23/P2000n SN BR OVC013 M11/M12
Q1032 234/1032 Tempo 0600 SN FG RMK QFE717/0956=
Not a nice evening - Almaty is an evil place in the winter
My sympathies go to the family of the person who died
ACD
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 17:30
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PJ2
 
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Flintstone;

Yes, I changed the word in the post from "will" to "may" with that in mind.

Re speculation, agree when facts are not known or one is not in a position to offer specialist knowledge or experience. The pattern/sequence of this accident is reported however,
Short translation of the report of the Office of Prosecutor of Kazakhstan: Immediately after take-off the aircraft banked right, the wing struck the ground. Then the aircraft deviated to the right, hit the concrete perimeter fence, crashed, broke up and caught fire.
, so I think the notions expressed here are at least worth discussing because the pattern of the accident sequence reported has occurred at least four previous times with this type. That isn't speculation, that is fact but caution must be exercised that this remains a discussion and not a summary of the cause of this accident which is not known. The line is a fine one indeed.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 17:34
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Point taken PJ. I'm painfully aware of the attributes of this type what with living with it on a daily basis. What I'm hoping to avoid is the swathe of idiots that home in on these threads like flies round a cow's arse.
 
Old 26th Dec 2007, 18:06
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What I'm hoping to avoid is the swathe of idiots that home in on these threads like flies round a cow's arse.
LOL!!
My Dad always said that any fool can speak up, and usually does....bless him, he understood human nature.

It is interesting to discuss "what is" in these matters. With some exceptions, I think that the thread on the Turkish MD82 accident was a good example of this kind of discussion even though there was some hot-behind-the-eyes contributions towards those who obviously were not knowledgeable. It isn't worth the blood pressure to try to correct or stop such entries; one can only control what oneself can and will do. The work done by earnest, informed and cautious contributors on that thread was good, readable stuff by and large. Those who's egos require an "early entry" to be seen either as prescient (a no-risk position to take), or as "part of the gang" don't understand the investigative process and that safety work is almost exclusively driven by "what", not "who".

I note that the empennage is upside down. Perhaps photos of the larger area will reveal more.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 18:13
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The actual weather was:
UAAA 252100Z 01003MPS 0900 R05/2000D SN BR OVC003 M14/M15 Q1038 054/1032 NOSIG RMK QBB110 QFE718/0957=
It was heavy snow fall
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