Strange Habits of Your Captains
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Hay Rainboe,
Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right. When they reach the age where they must return to the right seat, they look left and see why.
Regards,
DFC
Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right. When they reach the age where they must return to the right seat, they look left and see why.
Regards,
DFC
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This little girl has just about been bowled over by all the testosterone (or Rainboe, should that be Testosterone? 
) in this thread! I think I may be growing testicles as we speak.
Good call DFC.
Same here Shy Torque and I'm beginning to think it might be for the best 
Please, PLEASE assure me that this, er, "Person of High Status" is the exception rather then the rule.
Kiwi Chick
) in this thread! I think I may be growing testicles as we speak.
Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right. When they reach the age where they must return to the right seat, they look left and see why.
Every day, I look across to the left hand pilot's seat - and there is no-one there. And I sometimes talk to myself - is that a strange habit?
Please, PLEASE assure me that this, er, "Person of High Status" is the exception rather then the rule.
Kiwi Chick
Warning Toxic!
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Well, some would say (not I!) that you girlies have broken into a man's world, so I suppose you had better be prepared for the consequences!
Have you noticed in the morning your face is growing bristles, and maybe a shave might be a good idea? I am appalled when I see a crusty old Capitano (like myself) and a young, attractive lady copilot walking along, and the Captain is carrying the copilot's briefcase! In fact I am downright aghast. If you ladies are breaking into a man's world, and have the ability to do so, why on Earth would you need your briefcase carried for you? See? You can carry your own briefcase, and you can do it better than any man, right?Unless of course all that shaving gear was rather heavy.
So rather than any weird thoughts when the Captain is looked at by the copilot, I would rather when the copilot looked at me, he (in a non-gender manner) was thinking "what have I forgotten, should I get some weather, and the Boss has forgotten this......how can I gently remind him so it appears it was me that forgot?" Trouble with copilots these days is there is no finesse or gentle discretion anymore (not like I had).
Have you noticed in the morning your face is growing bristles, and maybe a shave might be a good idea? I am appalled when I see a crusty old Capitano (like myself) and a young, attractive lady copilot walking along, and the Captain is carrying the copilot's briefcase! In fact I am downright aghast. If you ladies are breaking into a man's world, and have the ability to do so, why on Earth would you need your briefcase carried for you? See? You can carry your own briefcase, and you can do it better than any man, right?Unless of course all that shaving gear was rather heavy.
So rather than any weird thoughts when the Captain is looked at by the copilot, I would rather when the copilot looked at me, he (in a non-gender manner) was thinking "what have I forgotten, should I get some weather, and the Boss has forgotten this......how can I gently remind him so it appears it was me that forgot?" Trouble with copilots these days is there is no finesse or gentle discretion anymore (not like I had).
Moderator
Why has all this stuff to be discussed in the "Tech Log" ?
Obviously it doesn't have to be .. however, so long as it is reasonably polite, pertinent .. and occasionally touches on technical matters, it is a useful subject and might just as well be discussed here as elsewhere ...
Obviously it doesn't have to be .. however, so long as it is reasonably polite, pertinent .. and occasionally touches on technical matters, it is a useful subject and might just as well be discussed here as elsewhere ...
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I too have sat in the right hand seat for many a year, glanced across at the LHS to see either nobody there or a young fella me lad who wanted my job 
I operated in extreme weathers, in and out of tight sites etc...
Then, after many, many years of beating the air into submission I fancied the easy life that is piloting an airliner around. Rocket science it aint.
So now I find myself, in the words of the Toxic Rainboe, having no experience, nothing to add to the conversation and no skills to bring to the party. Ummm maybe not. I realise that he/she in the LHS that carries the can and signs on the dotted line but as long as my ass is in that aeroplane I will make sure that my views and my experience are taken into account. I do that with humour, forethought, suggestion and assertiveness when required.
Not all co-pilots are 21 and some have a whole lot more command hours than the guy/gal in the other seat, alot of the time in aircraft operated within far more extreme environments. Life circumstances and the need for a change of scene puts many people there. I like it and I get on well with just about everybody I fly with.
Always keep an open mind, the cross cockpit gradient has been known to go the other way before.
W2P
I operated in extreme weathers, in and out of tight sites etc...Then, after many, many years of beating the air into submission I fancied the easy life that is piloting an airliner around. Rocket science it aint.
So now I find myself, in the words of the Toxic Rainboe, having no experience, nothing to add to the conversation and no skills to bring to the party. Ummm maybe not. I realise that he/she in the LHS that carries the can and signs on the dotted line but as long as my ass is in that aeroplane I will make sure that my views and my experience are taken into account. I do that with humour, forethought, suggestion and assertiveness when required.
Not all co-pilots are 21 and some have a whole lot more command hours than the guy/gal in the other seat, alot of the time in aircraft operated within far more extreme environments. Life circumstances and the need for a change of scene puts many people there. I like it and I get on well with just about everybody I fly with.
Always keep an open mind, the cross cockpit gradient has been known to go the other way before.
W2P
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What 'vitriol' are some of you talking about? It's not me that wrote:
I don't happen to have that attitude, and I don't talk like that! I was rhs for nearly 19 years before my turn came up, and I do make a proper working atmosphere with no overtones, unlike some, in both seats, I have flown with! Any vitriol in this thread was reserved for one taking cheap scoring points for a minor typographical error. But this thread damages working relationships encouraging copilots to drag up awful or embarrassing stories. Unless there is respect on the FD for the Captain, whatever the rhs thinks, you do not have a safe environment, and 500mph is no time to start discussing it.
This illustrates what I mean:
- can this mean "I'm taking away some of that authority, but I don't have to sign on the dotted line!"?
Views by all means 'taken into account', but not overriding- as long as we remember there is ONE boss. A crew is not a 'partnership'. Sometimes I think CRM dangles almost over the edge of a proper safe operation by almost encouraging any blockheadedness and obstructionism to be forcibly 'taken into account'!
Some people sit in the left seat for years wondering how on earth they ended up with such idiots on their right.
This illustrates what I mean:
I realise that he/she in the LHS that carries the can and signs on the dotted line but as long as my ass is in that aeroplane I will make sure that my views and my experience are taken into account.
Views by all means 'taken into account', but not overriding- as long as we remember there is ONE boss. A crew is not a 'partnership'. Sometimes I think CRM dangles almost over the edge of a proper safe operation by almost encouraging any blockheadedness and obstructionism to be forcibly 'taken into account'!
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Rainboe,
We all make mistakes, I have made some as 'Captain' and have had them pointed out by my colleague before they became a safety risk. Thanks were in order and a debrief and review of my own performance. Not a problem in any way, just a good way of improving my own performance.
If you think you are a 'flying god' due to passing some airlines command course then good luck. They train/convert Captains based on commercial need, not necessarily skill/personality/capability or in your case lack of.
We are all now commercial entities, nothing more nothing less. When you hit the minimum requirements then they will feed you through the command minching machine and out you pop, as Rainboe, an all knowing, dismissive, bitter entity.
Cheers
W2P
We all make mistakes, I have made some as 'Captain' and have had them pointed out by my colleague before they became a safety risk. Thanks were in order and a debrief and review of my own performance. Not a problem in any way, just a good way of improving my own performance.
If you think you are a 'flying god' due to passing some airlines command course then good luck. They train/convert Captains based on commercial need, not necessarily skill/personality/capability or in your case lack of.
We are all now commercial entities, nothing more nothing less. When you hit the minimum requirements then they will feed you through the command minching machine and out you pop, as Rainboe, an all knowing, dismissive, bitter entity.
Cheers
W2P
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go around because the FO didn't ask for the gear?
i thought as captains, we were to lead a bit.
if he didn't ask for the gear, i would give it.
and if he/she were too high and fast, i would have slowed him/her down early enough to get it down the first time.
hell, i carry cabin crew's bags when i like.
if he didn't ask for the gear, i would give it.
and if he/she were too high and fast, i would have slowed him/her down early enough to get it down the first time.
hell, i carry cabin crew's bags when i like.
Moderator
Folks,
While the thread stays half reasonable .. it stays .. if not ... it gets locked and disappears into the depths of history ... please keep the chest beating for R&N and like appropriate forum vehicles ...
regards,
John
While the thread stays half reasonable .. it stays .. if not ... it gets locked and disappears into the depths of history ... please keep the chest beating for R&N and like appropriate forum vehicles ...
regards,
John
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Enuff
now I've got to put my 2 penn'orth in. (Not a typo, I'm old enough to remember proper money).
The most bizarre behaviour I've ever seen from the LHS when, after fortunes plunged following yet another aviation damaging event generated from the sand pit, I was returned, temporarily, to the RHS and being Mr Chameleon again, whilst other, older longer serving colleagues stayed in situ.
One guy had so much personal baggage he lost the plot completely and I had to take over command, from the RHS. He later took extended leave to get himself back together. Another wanted to complete an ILS with full fly down and fly right indications, in IMC. He needed two calls to Go Around and only just beat me to the TOGA triggers. By then I'd given up talking for a bit and wanted some positive action. Yet another refused to include me in any form of decision making whatsoever. That was a fun day out. Another took control at 50 feet on landing onto one of those mega large runways they have in Germany as the wind had gone outside of "First Officers Limits".
In contrast, the newbies in the RHS are well trained, good fun and willing to learn. They pose far fewer surprises than us old codgers and most of their problems, being based on lack of experience, normally reasonably predictable.....
Enjoy, as they say.
now I've got to put my 2 penn'orth in. (Not a typo, I'm old enough to remember proper money).
The most bizarre behaviour I've ever seen from the LHS when, after fortunes plunged following yet another aviation damaging event generated from the sand pit, I was returned, temporarily, to the RHS and being Mr Chameleon again, whilst other, older longer serving colleagues stayed in situ.
One guy had so much personal baggage he lost the plot completely and I had to take over command, from the RHS. He later took extended leave to get himself back together. Another wanted to complete an ILS with full fly down and fly right indications, in IMC. He needed two calls to Go Around and only just beat me to the TOGA triggers. By then I'd given up talking for a bit and wanted some positive action. Yet another refused to include me in any form of decision making whatsoever. That was a fun day out. Another took control at 50 feet on landing onto one of those mega large runways they have in Germany as the wind had gone outside of "First Officers Limits".
In contrast, the newbies in the RHS are well trained, good fun and willing to learn. They pose far fewer surprises than us old codgers and most of their problems, being based on lack of experience, normally reasonably predictable.....
Enjoy, as they say.
Warning Toxic!
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Here it comes- exactly what I feared- a raft of stories about how handsome, debonair, ace, steely jawed copilots saved the death megajet from instant destruction because the 'old codger had a temporary self lobotomy'.
May I remind people this is an open forum, not a private place for aviators to swap secret stories, few of which bear any truth. Maybe many feel washing dirty linen in public is an acceptable thing to do, but by trotting out these fables and tales, it is demeaning to the Captains authority of airliners and inevitably not good for the confidence of the travelling public- hearing these tales is quite frankly abhorrent, especially when the other party is not here to answer his side of the story.
Why not just let it go? There are enough non-aviation people here who spend inordinate amounts of time here whose only interest seems to be to demean the profession and the industry. Before we know it, journos will have scoops of the latest 'aviation outrage! Incompetence!' Let's stop putting ammunition in their hands from these one sided 'disaster' stories please! They're garbage.
May I remind people this is an open forum, not a private place for aviators to swap secret stories, few of which bear any truth. Maybe many feel washing dirty linen in public is an acceptable thing to do, but by trotting out these fables and tales, it is demeaning to the Captains authority of airliners and inevitably not good for the confidence of the travelling public- hearing these tales is quite frankly abhorrent, especially when the other party is not here to answer his side of the story.
Why not just let it go? There are enough non-aviation people here who spend inordinate amounts of time here whose only interest seems to be to demean the profession and the industry. Before we know it, journos will have scoops of the latest 'aviation outrage! Incompetence!' Let's stop putting ammunition in their hands from these one sided 'disaster' stories please! They're garbage.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Well said Rainboe.
Nubboy Cant believe you posted all that stuff
Never taken control from anyone, no one ever took control from me and the only cases I've heard of up until now are genuine incapacitation, which are rare.
Nubboy Cant believe you posted all that stuff
Never taken control from anyone, no one ever took control from me and the only cases I've heard of up until now are genuine incapacitation, which are rare.
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Get Over It
So you're a captain. You are responsible for the safe and efficient conduct of the flight. But that doesn't make you god, and it doesn't mean you are going to be automatically respected. That may have been the case 40 years ago (and yes, I was around then), but it is not now. Since the introduction of CRM, the number of crew related incidents has declined dramatically, especially when one takes into account the increase in aviation traffic over the years. F/O's are no longer afraid (at least in my airline) to speak up, as our system is completely transparent. There is a "no blame, no shame" culture now, and it has resulted in a much safer and efficient environment.
I have had the CRL experience (centre, right, left). I have seen as many stuff-ups by RHSeaters as LHSeaters. We are human=fallible. The older we get, the slower we get (but hopefully wiser), and chances are that some quick witted chap in the RHS is going to pick up an error before we do. I would rather have him say something before it becomes an issue, than to allow the holes in the cheese to line up.
One of the great levellers in the system has been the company's insistence on adherance to SOP's. There is no longer the latitude afforded us once-upon-a-time. We can no longer say "I have always done it this way, so I'll continue to...". As a S/O I used to hear that more often than not, but all those old duffers have since retired, and aviation is all the more safe for their departure.
And that leaves one variable - personality. If you always operate according to SOP's but have an arrogant attitude, guys will say "He's safe, but an ar&ehole to fly with" or "one more day away with him and I'd have killed him". Respect is no longer demanded - it is earned. Treat your RHSeaters with respect and you'll get it back. The same applies to F/O's. It is a two way street.
I have had the CRL experience (centre, right, left). I have seen as many stuff-ups by RHSeaters as LHSeaters. We are human=fallible. The older we get, the slower we get (but hopefully wiser), and chances are that some quick witted chap in the RHS is going to pick up an error before we do. I would rather have him say something before it becomes an issue, than to allow the holes in the cheese to line up.
One of the great levellers in the system has been the company's insistence on adherance to SOP's. There is no longer the latitude afforded us once-upon-a-time. We can no longer say "I have always done it this way, so I'll continue to...". As a S/O I used to hear that more often than not, but all those old duffers have since retired, and aviation is all the more safe for their departure.
And that leaves one variable - personality. If you always operate according to SOP's but have an arrogant attitude, guys will say "He's safe, but an ar&ehole to fly with" or "one more day away with him and I'd have killed him". Respect is no longer demanded - it is earned. Treat your RHSeaters with respect and you'll get it back. The same applies to F/O's. It is a two way street.
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400Rulz and Nubboy very well said, you two are the sort of captains we respect he most. Respect is to be earned.
parabellum (will I get introuble for no capital P even though you spelt it that way?)and especially Rainboe. Hope I never have to fly with either of you. I doubt any of the unfortunate (though probably laughing- I mean now as they read this post) F/Os who read this post say what they really think of you as you may well intimidate "respect" (and I use the term loosely). Grow up both of you. Rainboe, you started this thread down the path it has taken, all that was required was a sane response.
Mods, do what you will to this post. They deserved it, though, it is only my humble opinion, and nobody has ever been shot for that(maybe in their world).
parabellum (will I get introuble for no capital P even though you spelt it that way?)and especially Rainboe. Hope I never have to fly with either of you. I doubt any of the unfortunate (though probably laughing- I mean now as they read this post) F/Os who read this post say what they really think of you as you may well intimidate "respect" (and I use the term loosely). Grow up both of you. Rainboe, you started this thread down the path it has taken, all that was required was a sane response.
Mods, do what you will to this post. They deserved it, though, it is only my humble opinion, and nobody has ever been shot for that(maybe in their world).
Warning Toxic!
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well how interesting! The clue is in the 'Melbpilot...' bit. It is undoubtedly true what they say about chips- you sound very well 'balanced'! But leaving aside the personal abuse (which is genuinly funny), we are mutually concerned we don't ever fly with each other- your arrogance will be larger than you! Just stay down in the antipodes pal, and don't bring your bitterness up here.
Your post:
Yup-little power in the right hand seat OK.
It becomes clear where your chip stems from. The desperation cries out loud and clear!
Your post:
Unfortunately when some people get into a position with just a little power they turn into absolute w@nkers.
teeepee, you obviously haven't got a clue. Jetstar Asia have pilots from many countries, even direct entry captains. Now what do you think would happen if all the expat pilots got up and went home? How many airlines in the region would have trouble crewing aircraft?
It would seem to me (and this is just a guess), that perhaps you were knocked back and are a little bitter.....
It would seem to me (and this is just a guess), that perhaps you were knocked back and are a little bitter.....
Last edited by Rainboe; 25th Jul 2007 at 19:23.
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In the beginning of the thread I raised the question if this forum would be the best place for it. A pprune moderator answered:
so long as it is reasonably polite.....
In the meanwhile I have the impression, that this is not the case.
so long as it is reasonably polite.....
In the meanwhile I have the impression, that this is not the case.
Warning Toxic!
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If everyone talks like this chap in the Dannunda and Godzone forum, I can see why it was closed for a while. Expletives flying around like that- don't people realise once you start swearing at people, you have lost your point altogether?
Moderator
Be assured that the thread is being watched closely .. with the odd deletion of naughty words and such like here and there it is just managing to stay decent.
Why not, though, avoid the invective (which doesn't reflect well on the person concerned) and discuss the tech/CRM implications of non-SOP and other idiosyncratic behaviours ? .. which is where I had hoped the thread would tread ..
For information, we go to considerable lengths to avoid locking threads unless they get altogether too silly or go right off the rails of decent discussion ... there are other places which welcome that sort of thing .. we are more interested in facilitating the discussion bits relating to tech matters ..
.. and, for any who might think that I can be offended and caused to flare up in retaliation to perception .. rest assured that I have the most enormously thick skin ... it is just a matter that the totem pole folk have dictated certain standards and we just set about trying to balance facilitation against the maintenance of prescribed matters ..
Robust argument, even if a tad heated, is fine ... we just endeavour to keep it reasonably polite and decent for a G-rated audience ..
Why not, though, avoid the invective (which doesn't reflect well on the person concerned) and discuss the tech/CRM implications of non-SOP and other idiosyncratic behaviours ? .. which is where I had hoped the thread would tread ..
For information, we go to considerable lengths to avoid locking threads unless they get altogether too silly or go right off the rails of decent discussion ... there are other places which welcome that sort of thing .. we are more interested in facilitating the discussion bits relating to tech matters ..
.. and, for any who might think that I can be offended and caused to flare up in retaliation to perception .. rest assured that I have the most enormously thick skin ... it is just a matter that the totem pole folk have dictated certain standards and we just set about trying to balance facilitation against the maintenance of prescribed matters ..
Robust argument, even if a tad heated, is fine ... we just endeavour to keep it reasonably polite and decent for a G-rated audience ..