Ryanair High Speed approach
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a number of posts here concern ryanair pilot body as a whole or ryanair versus other airlines.the majority of pilots are great operators and top guys,unfortunately there is a culture building and a minority who are not good.whether ba,virgin or others have incidents,we don't care we are ryanair and we are responsible for our shop.
safety is not for accountants!
safety is not for accountants!
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Normal Nigel,
That a serious error was made does not need any more attention.
But that the pilot concerned gave us insight into the reasons behind his admitted poor airmanship deserves in my opinion a medal.
It's reactions like yours that make it damn difficult for people to come forward and admid their mistakes.
Maybe you should stop re-acting on the basis of your emotions and start using your brain so that you may now understand why pilots make serious errors.
I think all managers of airlines should read this incident report especially the hairy camel guy, maybe he can then understand that he is playing with safety in the way he treats his pilots.
That a serious error was made does not need any more attention.
But that the pilot concerned gave us insight into the reasons behind his admitted poor airmanship deserves in my opinion a medal.
It's reactions like yours that make it damn difficult for people to come forward and admid their mistakes.
Maybe you should stop re-acting on the basis of your emotions and start using your brain so that you may now understand why pilots make serious errors.
I think all managers of airlines should read this incident report especially the hairy camel guy, maybe he can then understand that he is playing with safety in the way he treats his pilots.
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Stop being so pompous
I'm afraid that this comes under the "more serious than an error of judgement" file.
And he didn't come forward and admit it. He got caught trying to cover it up.Or did he think that it was all normal on the ground in Sweden?
No tech log entry or report.
I'm afraid that this comes under the "more serious than an error of judgement" file.
And he didn't come forward and admit it. He got caught trying to cover it up.Or did he think that it was all normal on the ground in Sweden?
No tech log entry or report.
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The bottom line to the whole issue is that the PIC should have elected to go around and make another approach. As to why he made such a bad decision remains to be seen.
One more serious mistake like this and no doubt the UK CAA will pay a visit to FR. EGSS is afterall FR's largest base and on English soil.
To all FR crews: FLY BY THE RULES & FLY SAFE
One more serious mistake like this and no doubt the UK CAA will pay a visit to FR. EGSS is afterall FR's largest base and on English soil.
To all FR crews: FLY BY THE RULES & FLY SAFE
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I'm confused here, this wasn't an error but wilfull chosen behaviour. This alleged "Commander" chose to ignore both visual and audible warnings from his machine as well as his F/O!
He didn't have the ball's to stick his hand's up on the day. The idiot only fessed up because he was forced to many months later when he was half way around the World.
I would not give credence to excuses formulated over many months by a coward who has run away from the scene and left a junior colleague to take some of the heat for his actions on that day.
BWG
He didn't have the ball's to stick his hand's up on the day. The idiot only fessed up because he was forced to many months later when he was half way around the World.
I would not give credence to excuses formulated over many months by a coward who has run away from the scene and left a junior colleague to take some of the heat for his actions on that day.
BWG
Very sobering but a lot of pompous posts to add fuel to the fire.
I have been in this biz for over 30 years and have seen worse with my own eyes. Nearly lost my job for becoming intolerant of one poor performance that nearly dragged the flaps off a 707.
I would bet London to a Brick that while most of the FR guys would have less hours than their equivalents in major carriers they would actually have much much more experience.
For my money this was 'stunned mullet ' bad judgement but not worthy of the wrap that I see on this thread.
Stress and accumulated fatigue can do strange things to the best of aviators.
If anything I would be pushing a more forceful F/O culture. Its the single pilot IFR environment that will ultimately kill people.
I have been in this biz for over 30 years and have seen worse with my own eyes. Nearly lost my job for becoming intolerant of one poor performance that nearly dragged the flaps off a 707.
I would bet London to a Brick that while most of the FR guys would have less hours than their equivalents in major carriers they would actually have much much more experience.
For my money this was 'stunned mullet ' bad judgement but not worthy of the wrap that I see on this thread.
Stress and accumulated fatigue can do strange things to the best of aviators.
If anything I would be pushing a more forceful F/O culture. Its the single pilot IFR environment that will ultimately kill people.
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I have been in this biz for over 30 years and have seen worse with my own eyes. Nearly lost my job for becoming intolerant of one poor performance that nearly dragged the flaps off a 707.
The "we did worse on the Trident/707 brigade".
Those days are over, old bean.
I would bet London to a Brick that while most of the FR guys would have less hours than their equivalents in major carriers they would actually have much much more experience.
I doubt you would see many other FR pilots either acting in such a way. They must also be appalled by his actions that basically border on the criminal.
This guy is obviously a wild card that should never have been near the LHS.
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If anything I would be pushing a more forceful F/O culture
Needless to say, the FR apologists, specifically LHC, ignore the real questions and instead engage in bluff, bluster and spin. So what about it, Leo, lets have some backbone and answer the questions:
Do you think the FOs decision to continue in a U/S aircraft with an unbalanced skipper was in any way influenced by CDs dismissal? Would Ryanair or would Ryanair not have stood by the FO had he taken the correct course of action and insisted on both an engineering inspection of the flap and a new captain?
Not that I expect an answer; what LHC once again fails to understand is, if you truly believe in something, you will be prepared to answer any and every question presented to you. And anyway, what is there to fear from your inquisitors Leo? If Ryanair is indeed the Shangri-la you claim it to be, you will have no problem answering EVERY question put to you.
As for trying to incriminate IALPA in all this, utterly preposterous. A strong union to stand up for the FO refusing to fly back with that skipper would have been a massive extra layer of safety.
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One Step Beyond,
You are right to expect no answer from LHC. He never answers questions. He merely issues statements on behalf of his hallowed employer Ryanair. Very long statements usually. The content of which, makes me suspect that he is actually part of their management. He comes across as that special type of manager that only understands one way communication. No discussion, just his increasingly boring and irritating version of events, laced with what he probably thinks is colourful prose.
Well if he is in Ryanair management it really doesn't say much for them. Good typist though.
You are right to expect no answer from LHC. He never answers questions. He merely issues statements on behalf of his hallowed employer Ryanair. Very long statements usually. The content of which, makes me suspect that he is actually part of their management. He comes across as that special type of manager that only understands one way communication. No discussion, just his increasingly boring and irritating version of events, laced with what he probably thinks is colourful prose.
Well if he is in Ryanair management it really doesn't say much for them. Good typist though.
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Not that I'm supporting Ryanair but they are not alone in the non reporting of incidents.
AAIB UK DHC-8 Incident
This is just as bad and has had no publicity on PPRUNE.
AAIB UK DHC-8 Incident
This is just as bad and has had no publicity on PPRUNE.
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Interesting thread. I think what rankles with the 'shred his license' people is:
1. It wasn't just that he screwed up the approach, it's that he wilfully and in full knowledge of his situation, and against multiple warnings, persisted with an approach that was so screwed up it should have been thrown away long before.
That was bad. But for me the killer (and not many people have touched on this) is:
2. He knowingly and substantially exceeded airframe structural limits (Vfe) and did/said nothing - covered it up in fact.
Would *you* like to be the one suddenly facing assymetric flap at a critical stage of flight a few hundred hours after this guy had finished with the aircraft? This kind of behaviour has killed people before now.
R1
1. It wasn't just that he screwed up the approach, it's that he wilfully and in full knowledge of his situation, and against multiple warnings, persisted with an approach that was so screwed up it should have been thrown away long before.
That was bad. But for me the killer (and not many people have touched on this) is:
2. He knowingly and substantially exceeded airframe structural limits (Vfe) and did/said nothing - covered it up in fact.
Would *you* like to be the one suddenly facing assymetric flap at a critical stage of flight a few hundred hours after this guy had finished with the aircraft? This kind of behaviour has killed people before now.
R1
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I still maintain that the FO could have dealt with this by making a tech log entry regarding the flap speed exceedence at Skavsta.
If it's in the book, the FO can't be pressured into flying an aircraft that is tech, the worst accusation that could be levelled at him/her would be poor CRM and I'm sure that would sound especially rich !
If it's in the book, the FO can't be pressured into flying an aircraft that is tech, the worst accusation that could be levelled at him/her would be poor CRM and I'm sure that would sound especially rich !
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Anybody know what the Captains doing now??? flying smelly people round the outback in an Aztec I hope!!
LOL!!! Was there not a similar incident back in the good old days werethe young F/O did not speak up to the captain killing all on board a trident??
The "we did worse on the Trident/707 brigade".
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I still maintain that the FO could have dealt with this by making a tech log entry regarding the flap speed exceedence at Skavsta.
Nobody during the whole "second to none" CTC/EZY training course has explained me how to make an entry or how the tech log works in the first place! All I know about it is through self study and asking questions to sympathetic captains!
I can hardly see any F/O (no matter which company) grabbing a tech log and grounding an aircraft!
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What a lot of horse sh*t
This chap was on his last day with Ryanair.
He decided to give it a bit of.....well ..........whatever he chose to.
He decided that he'd do as he pleased and ignore his FO.
So he did. Got a bit hot, a bit high and frightened his FO.
Now he's got to apologize and make up some **** 'cos he made a 'James Hunt' of it and his FO plainly filed an ASR.
Basically the guy landed 30kts fast due a poor approach.
Whoopeedoo!
Now if he'd burst a tyre or scratched the paint ......................
This chap was on his last day with Ryanair.
He decided to give it a bit of.....well ..........whatever he chose to.
He decided that he'd do as he pleased and ignore his FO.
So he did. Got a bit hot, a bit high and frightened his FO.
Now he's got to apologize and make up some **** 'cos he made a 'James Hunt' of it and his FO plainly filed an ASR.
Basically the guy landed 30kts fast due a poor approach.
Whoopeedoo!
Now if he'd burst a tyre or scratched the paint ......................
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brain fade I assume by your comments that you're not a pilot? If you are, god help anyone who flies with you.
SOP's are there to be followed NOT ignored.
Both crew members are to blame here. The Captain for obvious reasons, and the FO for not filing an ASR and not entering anything in the tech log.
The FO should have reacted better in hindsight. Surely Boeing or the leasing company would have something to say if their aircraft was operated beyond it's limits?
The picture would be different if this aircraft had gone off the end of the runway........
SOP's are there to be followed NOT ignored.
Both crew members are to blame here. The Captain for obvious reasons, and the FO for not filing an ASR and not entering anything in the tech log.
The FO should have reacted better in hindsight. Surely Boeing or the leasing company would have something to say if their aircraft was operated beyond it's limits?
The picture would be different if this aircraft had gone off the end of the runway........
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Eh no, if brain fade is serious, he has not got a point. Not one point in hell.
There is absolutely no excuse for the way that plane was flown. None.
And there was no excuse for letting it up in the air again without a proper tech inspection.
This is not being anally retentive. This is flying. These are the rules.
There is absolutely no excuse for the way that plane was flown. None.
And there was no excuse for letting it up in the air again without a proper tech inspection.
This is not being anally retentive. This is flying. These are the rules.
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Chaps
I'm not excusing him and I don't think I'll try the same trick myself!
No one hurt. No paint scratched. Bad flying. Bad CRM.
An incident not an accident.
The point I was trying to make is that they were fu**ing around on purpose. The marital stress stuff had sod all to do with it.
To hear some of the holy holies on here you'd think he'd killed someone.
As far as going again without getting the flaps looked at, the FO implicated himself in the incident by not pressing for the engineers to have a proper look.
I'm not excusing him and I don't think I'll try the same trick myself!
No one hurt. No paint scratched. Bad flying. Bad CRM.
An incident not an accident.
The point I was trying to make is that they were fu**ing around on purpose. The marital stress stuff had sod all to do with it.
To hear some of the holy holies on here you'd think he'd killed someone.
As far as going again without getting the flaps looked at, the FO implicated himself in the incident by not pressing for the engineers to have a proper look.
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No holy holies about it.
Basic stuff for PPLs or CPLs:
- You do not exceed Vfe.
- You do not pitch the nose down 12 degrees when you should in fact have established a stablised approach.
- You do not land 30 knots above landing speed.
- You do not f**k around as you suggest whether you have 1 passenger or 120.
Basic basic basic stuff. If you fly, you would know this.
Basic stuff for PPLs or CPLs:
- You do not exceed Vfe.
- You do not pitch the nose down 12 degrees when you should in fact have established a stablised approach.
- You do not land 30 knots above landing speed.
- You do not f**k around as you suggest whether you have 1 passenger or 120.
Basic basic basic stuff. If you fly, you would know this.