Ryanair High Speed approach
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
catplaystation,
270kts @ Flap 5 sounds a little more than a 10% exceedence in my book. The report says PNF noticed this albeit he was unsure about the pitch attitude.
I quite concur with you that it would be possible to get in off this approach without compromising SAC at 500RA. It looks like they were at FL100 about 20 out.
Anyone coming into CWL from the south knows that you're often left high until north of EGTE. On this particular VMC occasion, closely followed by a Britannia 76, we were both left 9000ft above profile at ~FL150 with 25 to run.
When asked whether he'd continue to prefer vectors, the 76 driver quipped
"Yeah....via BHX."
Back at 210kts, drop the gear, speedbrake out, accelerate to 300kts, V/S ~5-6000ft/min, level off and get the flaps out and both of us got in no drama whatsoever.
Unusual. Not pleasant.
But no need for any histrionics.
270kts @ Flap 5 sounds a little more than a 10% exceedence in my book. The report says PNF noticed this albeit he was unsure about the pitch attitude.
I quite concur with you that it would be possible to get in off this approach without compromising SAC at 500RA. It looks like they were at FL100 about 20 out.
Anyone coming into CWL from the south knows that you're often left high until north of EGTE. On this particular VMC occasion, closely followed by a Britannia 76, we were both left 9000ft above profile at ~FL150 with 25 to run.
When asked whether he'd continue to prefer vectors, the 76 driver quipped
"Yeah....via BHX."
Back at 210kts, drop the gear, speedbrake out, accelerate to 300kts, V/S ~5-6000ft/min, level off and get the flaps out and both of us got in no drama whatsoever.
Unusual. Not pleasant.
But no need for any histrionics.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Watching from above
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SR71
270kts @ Flap 5 sounds a little more than a 10% exceedence in my book
Not sure what book you're reading, but the placard max speed for flaps 1,2 and 5 on a 737-800 is 250kts. so 270kts would acctually be an exceedance of 8% if you're being picky
270kts @ Flap 5 sounds a little more than a 10% exceedence in my book
Not sure what book you're reading, but the placard max speed for flaps 1,2 and 5 on a 737-800 is 250kts. so 270kts would acctually be an exceedance of 8% if you're being picky
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ask the tower !
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just curious as to whether any of the punters down the back, or cabin crew even, noticed an odd approach angle and if any of them said something to airport/airline officials ?
I guess the cabin crew were also under the impression of "keep a low profile - say nothing".......
I guess the cabin crew were also under the impression of "keep a low profile - say nothing".......
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In SR71's defence, the book he is reading is probably the 737 Classic POH - Flap 5 VFE is 225 knots so 270kts = 20% exceedance.
(oops he beat me to it)
Anyway, the fact that one can pull off an eventually stablised approach from 20nm @ 10000' is not really the issue - the techniques SR71 describes are quite legitimate (although probably only suitable in relatively quiet airspace where some flexibility exists with speed and descent rates) - the fact is the chap in question didn't use valid techniques, and exceeded the operating envelope of his aircraft.
I do NOT call that 'good' flying. Anyone can plonk an aeroplane on the TDZ of a runway, at whatever speed and flap setting you happen to have; that's not flying, it's just steering.
Flying which would be worthy of our admiration would be to land with the aircraft correctly configured, at the right speed, with the landing performance calculated and with the second crewmember adequately 'in the loop' to monitor the flying pilot, and all this from a 'non-standard' profile. None of those things happened in this example.
A useful mnemonic (sp?) I was taught (as I recall) for FO/PNF as an 'intervention strategy' (and sometimes you do need a 'strategy') is to have a 'PACT' in the cockpit.
P - Probe: "Do we need to start slowing down soon?"
A - Advise: "I think we should slow down now"
C - Correct: "We're too fast. We have to slow down NOW."
T - Take Control
...so the Captain/PF is given ample opportunity to explain/re-brief/correct his actions throughout, and bring the crew back into the comfort zone.
Of course, sometimes it'd be prudent to leap in at stage 2, or even 3, but RARELY straight in at 4 unless you've tried at least 2 of the earlier stages.
(oops he beat me to it)
Anyway, the fact that one can pull off an eventually stablised approach from 20nm @ 10000' is not really the issue - the techniques SR71 describes are quite legitimate (although probably only suitable in relatively quiet airspace where some flexibility exists with speed and descent rates) - the fact is the chap in question didn't use valid techniques, and exceeded the operating envelope of his aircraft.
I do NOT call that 'good' flying. Anyone can plonk an aeroplane on the TDZ of a runway, at whatever speed and flap setting you happen to have; that's not flying, it's just steering.
Flying which would be worthy of our admiration would be to land with the aircraft correctly configured, at the right speed, with the landing performance calculated and with the second crewmember adequately 'in the loop' to monitor the flying pilot, and all this from a 'non-standard' profile. None of those things happened in this example.
A useful mnemonic (sp?) I was taught (as I recall) for FO/PNF as an 'intervention strategy' (and sometimes you do need a 'strategy') is to have a 'PACT' in the cockpit.
P - Probe: "Do we need to start slowing down soon?"
A - Advise: "I think we should slow down now"
C - Correct: "We're too fast. We have to slow down NOW."
T - Take Control
...so the Captain/PF is given ample opportunity to explain/re-brief/correct his actions throughout, and bring the crew back into the comfort zone.
Of course, sometimes it'd be prudent to leap in at stage 2, or even 3, but RARELY straight in at 4 unless you've tried at least 2 of the earlier stages.
Last edited by Gary Lager; 7th Oct 2005 at 09:29.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west sussex
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back at 210kts, drop the gear, speedbrake out, accelerate to 300kts, V/S ~5-6000ft/min, level off and get the flaps out and both of us got in no drama whatsoever.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wybacrik
Posts: 1,190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I'll be!...this thread is getting stupider and stupider!
Struth!...you guys should have been around when I started flying on Gooney birds with all the WW2 guys off Spits, Hurricanes,B25s etc.
Those guys could toss the Dc3 around like a rag doll and the SLF would be none the wiser!...and neither was I!
That was a sight to be seen, and what a lot it taught me for the remainder of my SUCCESSFUL 40 year career!
What are you?...a bunch of wimps?
Struth!...you guys should have been around when I started flying on Gooney birds with all the WW2 guys off Spits, Hurricanes,B25s etc.
Those guys could toss the Dc3 around like a rag doll and the SLF would be none the wiser!...and neither was I!
That was a sight to be seen, and what a lot it taught me for the remainder of my SUCCESSFUL 40 year career!
What are you?...a bunch of wimps?
stilljustanothernumber
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the night sky
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeing's are a bit tougher than come apart at the seams because of one exceedance 10% over a limit
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Far Side
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In all the discussion of the "right and wrong" of what took place, I think I am getting the impression that there is no widely accepted procedure for safely recovering from "too high, too close" without resorting to go around.
There seem to be no guidelines as to what is recoverable without exceeding sensible parameters, and what is not.
Even the recommended general technique for max angle of descent profile is somewhat murky.
Then again, maybe I missed it and it went right over my head...too close, too fast this time!
There seem to be no guidelines as to what is recoverable without exceeding sensible parameters, and what is not.
Even the recommended general technique for max angle of descent profile is somewhat murky.
Then again, maybe I missed it and it went right over my head...too close, too fast this time!
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 7th Oct 2005 at 11:41.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentlemen(or ladies?) please try and listen. . . I am not,and I repeat not ,defending exceeding any limit by 8% (thanks Flyingsand!)but please please, let us stop fixating on (and I repeat) a relatively small exceedance on an aircraft that is 5 years old and fairly robustly constructed.Far more worrying is side-slipping (where is that in the Boeing flight-training manual?)and landing with Flap 10 by accident because you were too fast to deploy any more.Why do you think the flap load relief only works at normal landing flap settings? Probably because "relatively small exceedances"at the lower settings are not seen as a major problem by Mr Boeing.ManaAdaSystem & Unwise owl. .YES I am a "typical" RYR Captain (whatever that is meant to mean/imply) but I have worked in enough other companies to know that this could happen anywhere,its not for nothing that BA produced a lovely video I saw a number of years ago called something like"how F/O Nigel reacts in rushed approaches"; some "great"acting,laugh-a-minute stuff!Oh and jonseagull, what is your objection to using the aircrafts capability? assuming the crew are aware/ WX suitable/cabin prepared etc,I believe using (and I repeat for the LAST time NOT exceeding )the aircraft's capability should be within the remit of any properly trained/current/motivated aviator.Your nannying fixation on one aspect of a wholly shabby performance only type-casts some of you as FR bashers or wannabees.
Last edited by captplaystation; 7th Oct 2005 at 14:12.
"Far more worrying is side-slipping"
Why is this more worrying?
I freely admit that I have never flown a Boeing but most other aircraft that I have ever flown (including the DC-10) have been wonderful wing-down-techinque aeroplanes in a strong crosswind.
Now then, when I have a lot of left aileron and a lot of right rudder on at the same time when I am landing in a 35 knot crosswind, are you telling me that this is overstressing the aircraft when all I am actually doing is a side-slip as recommended by the manufacturer?
I do appreciate that the 738 might not be a great wing-down aircraft becauase of its geometry but does Boeing actually forbid wing-down technique?
Why is this more worrying?
I freely admit that I have never flown a Boeing but most other aircraft that I have ever flown (including the DC-10) have been wonderful wing-down-techinque aeroplanes in a strong crosswind.
Now then, when I have a lot of left aileron and a lot of right rudder on at the same time when I am landing in a 35 knot crosswind, are you telling me that this is overstressing the aircraft when all I am actually doing is a side-slip as recommended by the manufacturer?
I do appreciate that the 738 might not be a great wing-down aircraft becauase of its geometry but does Boeing actually forbid wing-down technique?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JW411 I was actually thinking more in terms of a 270kt bootful of rudder effort,methinks more sideload than a bit of crabbing before landing.Landing a 738 with much bank angle does nasty things to the trailing edge flaps when they hit the R/W first(so Boeing reckons).
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greek God,yes;you can of course silence it if,in the heat of the moment,you have the mental capacity as a maxed-out F/O to reach down and flip OFF a guarded switch.It is of course a pretty big hint that you didn't plan,and therefore ideally shouldn't be doing,that which is giving you the verbal aggro!Unfortunately they didn't take the hint.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, I've only just picked up on this thread but what a corker ! The anger it's provoked in some is fascinating. I hope that airlines will use this example for years to come in their pilot crm training, after all that's how we learn - by studying the most appalling and difficult examples. I've seen similar examples from airlines other than Ryanair, so they don't stand alone here.
The unfortunate soul in the RHS of this one went as far as he dare and short of getting physical with the capt, was scuppered. If someone is hell-bent on screwing it up, it's a difficult job to get him to accept it and fall back in line or relinquish control, especially when happening in real time. I hope that both the f/o and his colleagues now have a game plan for the future in that, if flight data monitoring exists and you've been faced with an example such as this, then don't fly another sector without speeking to your fleet manager / duty manager, as you can back up what you say with FDM proof. If your management are unreasonable, then this isn't the airline for you and your sense of self preservation will lead you away, regardless of your training loans.
I'm LHS flying into Greek islands ( no ILS's ) at night, possibly thunderstorms, tired from summer roster disruption, being told not to carry too much fuel etc., so before anyone has a go at me, I've seen most things and know what pressure is. The capt. who flew the flight in question shouldn't operate for any airline in my opinon. I'm pleased he's no longer in Ryanair, although it concerns me not, as I refuse to passenger with them anyway.
The unfortunate soul in the RHS of this one went as far as he dare and short of getting physical with the capt, was scuppered. If someone is hell-bent on screwing it up, it's a difficult job to get him to accept it and fall back in line or relinquish control, especially when happening in real time. I hope that both the f/o and his colleagues now have a game plan for the future in that, if flight data monitoring exists and you've been faced with an example such as this, then don't fly another sector without speeking to your fleet manager / duty manager, as you can back up what you say with FDM proof. If your management are unreasonable, then this isn't the airline for you and your sense of self preservation will lead you away, regardless of your training loans.
I'm LHS flying into Greek islands ( no ILS's ) at night, possibly thunderstorms, tired from summer roster disruption, being told not to carry too much fuel etc., so before anyone has a go at me, I've seen most things and know what pressure is. The capt. who flew the flight in question shouldn't operate for any airline in my opinon. I'm pleased he's no longer in Ryanair, although it concerns me not, as I refuse to passenger with them anyway.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Far more worrying is side-slipping"
Why is this more worrying?
Significant intake disruption 'might' lead to compressor stall.
Examples around for example I recall the early 747's (think GE engine varients but cant remember), were vulnerable during strong x-wind take offs. CFM 56 is much less suseptable but guess its possible.
I would be concerned about this problem during a significant side slip (...as opposed to forward slip).
YM.
Why is this more worrying?
Significant intake disruption 'might' lead to compressor stall.
Examples around for example I recall the early 747's (think GE engine varients but cant remember), were vulnerable during strong x-wind take offs. CFM 56 is much less suseptable but guess its possible.
I would be concerned about this problem during a significant side slip (...as opposed to forward slip).
YM.