Ryanair High Speed approach
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Just look at American Airlines MD-80/SouthWest Airlines 737 incidents.The roles and actions of both F/O,S,piss poor at best.A physical confrontation in the cockpit,is definitly not the way to go.The company I work for has tried in scenario format to try and resolve this issue of "taking command"from a rouge pilot.For as many people involved in the disscussion ,there are as many ideas and ways to deal with it.I still dont think weve got it right!!! 
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OOps! Sorry about not knowing that it's amnual throttle! Look at it this way. There were any number of ways the F/O could have stopped this cowboy many of which have been aired already.
However, even IF he didn't have the balls to do anything about it in the air, there is no excuse for not sorting out our John Wayne once they got on the ground.
Neither pilot should be alowed fly any public transport aircraft again - not for the approach which was appalling, but for the lack of backbone afterwards. Has the spineless IAA done anything to affect their licencing status? Of course not.
However, even IF he didn't have the balls to do anything about it in the air, there is no excuse for not sorting out our John Wayne once they got on the ground.
Neither pilot should be alowed fly any public transport aircraft again - not for the approach which was appalling, but for the lack of backbone afterwards. Has the spineless IAA done anything to affect their licencing status? Of course not.
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The reason we get incidents like this is that manual raw data flying is no longer compulsory.Many pilots engage the AP at 1000' and disengage it again on final approach at 500'.Some pilots today can not fly their airplane without being vectored for an ILS approach with AP and FD on.Its pitiful but so true.
The airline culture that breeds such a pilot is really to blame,not the pilot himself.
The airline culture that breeds such a pilot is really to blame,not the pilot himself.
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The airline culture that breeds such a pilot is really to blame,not the pilot himself
B*llocks.
His handling has got nothing to do with it. Its all about judgment, and he lacked it on this occasion.
Many/most airlines promote autoflight particularly in bad weather, busy airspace etc.
Most of us manage to muddle through without endangering passengers crew and the aircraft.
If we did get caught out and screwed up, I dare to say most of us would not try and cover it up.
You can't in BA and many others anyway.
Its called SESMA
I've also heard that if it is who people think it is, it was totally in character.
Last edited by normal_nigel; 10th Oct 2005 at 18:14.
"The airline culture that breeds such a pilot is really to blame,not the pilot himself"
Then the airline should receive the credit for the 99.9% of the rest of us who are safe. No airline to blame here. That type of attitude rests with the individuals themselves. A good SOP may show those individuals for what they are, but it won't change them.
Then the airline should receive the credit for the 99.9% of the rest of us who are safe. No airline to blame here. That type of attitude rests with the individuals themselves. A good SOP may show those individuals for what they are, but it won't change them.
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The captain's head, for whatever reason, was somewhere else entirely. The FO, being the back up system for exactly this kind of situation, failed miserably.
When you stick 700hr guys in the right seat, this is exactly what you'll get.
What the f$*% do you think you're gonna get for a £19 ticket?
When you stick 700hr guys in the right seat, this is exactly what you'll get.
What the f$*% do you think you're gonna get for a £19 ticket?
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Normal Nigel,
With all due respect,your remark about judgement tells only half the story.When the pilot failed to stabilize by 500,then his decision not to pull up shows poor judgement.However,his inability to recover from being high or fast,or both,is more indicative of his inability to fly the plane(or perhaps his mental state at the time we dont know).A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots if you know what to do and act quickly.I dont of course recommend such a procedure on a regular basis but you must know what to do when you find yourself in such a position.
Incidents like this are symptomatic of the malaise in the system,not the individual.SOP overkill,not enough sim and line time devoted to the fundamentals,and a general misunderstanding of the true nature of crm by many airlines;all these factors are changing our industry for the worse and its very sad.
Today,a pilot may have logged 1500 hours on his shiny new B737 but he is quite likely never to have:
a)flown an ILS on raw data down to minimums for real
b)flown a traditional visual approach(In the FAR EAST they are banned)
c)been shown or instructed on how to recover safely from a hot/high approach
d)been shown or instructed how to fly his airplane based solely on attitude and thrust settings
e)flown a manual FD off,autothrottle off departure
f)flown a bad weather circling approach with a simulated AP failure
If they cant do it as PF,then they sure as hell cant act as PM when the left seat pilot does it.
With all due respect,your remark about judgement tells only half the story.When the pilot failed to stabilize by 500,then his decision not to pull up shows poor judgement.However,his inability to recover from being high or fast,or both,is more indicative of his inability to fly the plane(or perhaps his mental state at the time we dont know).A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots if you know what to do and act quickly.I dont of course recommend such a procedure on a regular basis but you must know what to do when you find yourself in such a position.
Incidents like this are symptomatic of the malaise in the system,not the individual.SOP overkill,not enough sim and line time devoted to the fundamentals,and a general misunderstanding of the true nature of crm by many airlines;all these factors are changing our industry for the worse and its very sad.
Today,a pilot may have logged 1500 hours on his shiny new B737 but he is quite likely never to have:
a)flown an ILS on raw data down to minimums for real
b)flown a traditional visual approach(In the FAR EAST they are banned)
c)been shown or instructed on how to recover safely from a hot/high approach
d)been shown or instructed how to fly his airplane based solely on attitude and thrust settings
e)flown a manual FD off,autothrottle off departure
f)flown a bad weather circling approach with a simulated AP failure
If they cant do it as PF,then they sure as hell cant act as PM when the left seat pilot does it.
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Err......
.......hum - generalising there a little IMHO. This one would take 3nm approx LEVEL ATTITUDE to bring the speed back from 300 to 250 big ones (depending on the weight) leaving you at 7 miles, 900 feet above the profile and only just able to ask for flap. Oh and the FR OFDM stores any flap extension above 230kts.
Recoverable at 10nm at 300kts? Can only think you were referring to a track mileage extension in yr recovery procedure!
A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots
Recoverable at 10nm at 300kts? Can only think you were referring to a track mileage extension in yr recovery procedure!
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A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots if you know what to do and act quickly
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Vfenext,
Listen I understand where you're coming from believe me.I would never advocate reckless or carefree flying but a pilot must know what his aircraft is capable of;he must also know his own limitations.A 737 decelerating from 300k at 10 nms out at no higher than 1800' agl and with NO tailwind is definitely a recoverable situation.Now if a pilot feels in his best judgement that it is not recoverable,then he must make his own decision and that is perfectly understandable.I also totally understand why some airlines with Big Brother watching would not wish to pursue such an approach.BUT PLEASE dont tell me its not possible to do and do in a safe and controlled manner,because it is...
Listen I understand where you're coming from believe me.I would never advocate reckless or carefree flying but a pilot must know what his aircraft is capable of;he must also know his own limitations.A 737 decelerating from 300k at 10 nms out at no higher than 1800' agl and with NO tailwind is definitely a recoverable situation.Now if a pilot feels in his best judgement that it is not recoverable,then he must make his own decision and that is perfectly understandable.I also totally understand why some airlines with Big Brother watching would not wish to pursue such an approach.BUT PLEASE dont tell me its not possible to do and do in a safe and controlled manner,because it is...
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@Rananim
Maybe it is possible.
But the question which had been raised is, what to do if it doesn't work out....?
For my opinion, the prescribed approach shouldn't be the answer.
regards
But the question which had been raised is, what to do if it doesn't work out....?
For my opinion, the prescribed approach shouldn't be the answer.
regards
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"A commercial jet of this size is quite recoverable at 10nm at 300 knots if you know what to do and act quickly. I don't of course recommend such a procedure on a regular basis but you must know what to do when you find yourself in such a position."
This thread has drifted away from the original title, and has now entered a more technical phase. (I'm sure the FR bashing has blown itself out, thankfully.)
I would thus like to respond to the above, and a couple of later points made by Ranamin.
"...but you must know what to do when ....."
Rule number 1. DO NOT get yourself in this position, NOR ALLOW yourself to be sucked into it by outside influences. God forbid ATC would do it to you. There in lies the skill; keeping away from such 'positions"!!!
Regarding the other points. I can agree that some piloting skills have been eroded in recent years, but in many airlines manual handling is encouraged when & where appropriate. (Deciding those parameters is also a skill, and with a SID at 3000' in London TMA on a stormy night is not a good idea). In the past (not necessarily good old days) the skills you mentioned were quite often required. That was because the a/c were very unsophisticated and the ATC infra-structure also. A B737-200 with only 1 DME and a 60's basic A/P & no A/T was a good learning machine around the Greek islands on a dark s$%ty night. You had to do it, and we were taught to do it 'on site'.
When I graduated onto the wizz bang glass cockpit & 80's autopilot, life became more relaxed, but you could always switch it off. However, the skill requirement changed slightly. If I ever offered the F/O the chance to follow suit, some tried and enjoyed it, others declined and missed the fun.
However, when I was doing conversion training, in the sim, I always tried to find time to cover the very manoeuvres you mentioned in a) - f).
A) B) D) & E) can be shown on the a/c, and I often still encourage them. The others are best left to the sim, but there is precious little time for anything extra there.
I still believe that in todays modern enviroment of higher tech a/c and infrastructure, it is best to learn how to avoid some of these areas, than to dilute, (by thinking you get away with it), the good self preserving prickly back of the neck hairs feeling that has saved many of us.
By the way: The demonstrated figure for 300 -210 kts + speed brake is 7nm. A further 3nm to get to gear down F15 would leave you at 1800' over the threshold. I suppose you could throw the gear out at 250kts and do a 1:1 descent at F40. It might work, but HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you really done this, and if so, how did you get yourself into that position? You say it is not recommended on a regular basis. I would go further and say NEVER. (Surely you didn't spend time in the sim trying this crazy stunt? and if you did, WHY?)
This thread has drifted away from the original title, and has now entered a more technical phase. (I'm sure the FR bashing has blown itself out, thankfully.)
I would thus like to respond to the above, and a couple of later points made by Ranamin.
"...but you must know what to do when ....."
Rule number 1. DO NOT get yourself in this position, NOR ALLOW yourself to be sucked into it by outside influences. God forbid ATC would do it to you. There in lies the skill; keeping away from such 'positions"!!!
Regarding the other points. I can agree that some piloting skills have been eroded in recent years, but in many airlines manual handling is encouraged when & where appropriate. (Deciding those parameters is also a skill, and with a SID at 3000' in London TMA on a stormy night is not a good idea). In the past (not necessarily good old days) the skills you mentioned were quite often required. That was because the a/c were very unsophisticated and the ATC infra-structure also. A B737-200 with only 1 DME and a 60's basic A/P & no A/T was a good learning machine around the Greek islands on a dark s$%ty night. You had to do it, and we were taught to do it 'on site'.
When I graduated onto the wizz bang glass cockpit & 80's autopilot, life became more relaxed, but you could always switch it off. However, the skill requirement changed slightly. If I ever offered the F/O the chance to follow suit, some tried and enjoyed it, others declined and missed the fun.
However, when I was doing conversion training, in the sim, I always tried to find time to cover the very manoeuvres you mentioned in a) - f).
A) B) D) & E) can be shown on the a/c, and I often still encourage them. The others are best left to the sim, but there is precious little time for anything extra there.
I still believe that in todays modern enviroment of higher tech a/c and infrastructure, it is best to learn how to avoid some of these areas, than to dilute, (by thinking you get away with it), the good self preserving prickly back of the neck hairs feeling that has saved many of us.
By the way: The demonstrated figure for 300 -210 kts + speed brake is 7nm. A further 3nm to get to gear down F15 would leave you at 1800' over the threshold. I suppose you could throw the gear out at 250kts and do a 1:1 descent at F40. It might work, but HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you really done this, and if so, how did you get yourself into that position? You say it is not recommended on a regular basis. I would go further and say NEVER. (Surely you didn't spend time in the sim trying this crazy stunt? and if you did, WHY?)
Last edited by RAT 5; 12th Oct 2005 at 14:07.
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The plot has most definitely been lost guys. Talking about recovery from 10nm at 300kts - this is a commercial airliner with paying passengers on board, so let's get out of test pilot thinking, eh?
I do believe that this is a good case for a crm type discussion and not a good deal else. To any of us who do this for a living, it's painfully obvious to see that a go around was the only option or ask for extra track miles before it gets to that stage. To those who keep blaming the f/o, I'd be interested to know what you fly and how long you've been doing it. For an inexperienced pilot to deal with this in real time is a classic crm dilemma - how far do you let it go ? This type of problem has been around since the very beginning of 2 crew operations with an experience gradient on the flight deck. Maybe the f/o concerned is a complete muppet but then I wasn't there and I don't know him.
We all get checked on our flying ability in the sim and a limited amount of crm, mostly relating to 'stock' scenarios. How anyone reacts when it goes wrong for real is a different matter. Whilst some intervene asap, others sit on their hands and may well do so until the self preservation alarm bell starts ringing.
300kts at 10nms !!!! Oh dear.....
I do believe that this is a good case for a crm type discussion and not a good deal else. To any of us who do this for a living, it's painfully obvious to see that a go around was the only option or ask for extra track miles before it gets to that stage. To those who keep blaming the f/o, I'd be interested to know what you fly and how long you've been doing it. For an inexperienced pilot to deal with this in real time is a classic crm dilemma - how far do you let it go ? This type of problem has been around since the very beginning of 2 crew operations with an experience gradient on the flight deck. Maybe the f/o concerned is a complete muppet but then I wasn't there and I don't know him.
We all get checked on our flying ability in the sim and a limited amount of crm, mostly relating to 'stock' scenarios. How anyone reacts when it goes wrong for real is a different matter. Whilst some intervene asap, others sit on their hands and may well do so until the self preservation alarm bell starts ringing.
300kts at 10nms !!!! Oh dear.....
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300kts on 10nm final is quite doable (on a 737), I have done it not too long ago.
Although not my favourite passtime, I do like a bit of flying once in a while....especially when the F/O dares you...
and for all those people that now say I'm unprofessional, on the contrary my friends, I chose this profession for the flying not for the tea and biscuits, so try and keep it safe.
If not certain of a stable approach at 500' then go around.
Take the blame and correct it for your next endeavour.
But for all these Willy Wonka's that never do anything remotely close to real flying, keep reading pprune in your 4x4 office, since there is no sense of reality
Although not my favourite passtime, I do like a bit of flying once in a while....especially when the F/O dares you...
and for all those people that now say I'm unprofessional, on the contrary my friends, I chose this profession for the flying not for the tea and biscuits, so try and keep it safe.
If not certain of a stable approach at 500' then go around.
Take the blame and correct it for your next endeavour.
But for all these Willy Wonka's that never do anything remotely close to real flying, keep reading pprune in your 4x4 office, since there is no sense of reality
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But for all these Willy Wonka's that never do anything remotely close to real flying, keep reading pprune in your 4x4 office, since there is no sense of reality
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Shaka Zulu:
First I have to ask if your pseudonym is indicative of a macho philosophy; and secondly, how far in your cheek was your tongue when making your comment?
I can't believe you are serious.
You let your F/O DARE you into such a manoeuvre??!! If it was a freighter in the darkest bundu, then perhaps it's not a hanging offence, but with a cabin full of pax and crew it has to be a questionable action. If you want to fly for fun then the place to do it is at the local club. There you can turn yourself inside out to your heart's content, as I do. Any passenger will be there for the thrill as well, but not the fare paying punter down the back of their flying gin palace.
The decision of a stable approach at 500' is made at 1000'. Most airlines in this day and age would take a grim view of 600kgs of fuel and 15 minutes of time being wasted due to such dramatics. And further, what are you teaching the future commanders by such action. I know I'm a hero & wizz bang jet jockey, I don't need to keep proving it.
The most relaxed training captain and superb operator I ever flew with was an ex-Red Arrow from the old days. Nowt to prove with a C.V like that. Everytrhing to lose if he went gungho.
First I have to ask if your pseudonym is indicative of a macho philosophy; and secondly, how far in your cheek was your tongue when making your comment?
I can't believe you are serious.
You let your F/O DARE you into such a manoeuvre??!! If it was a freighter in the darkest bundu, then perhaps it's not a hanging offence, but with a cabin full of pax and crew it has to be a questionable action. If you want to fly for fun then the place to do it is at the local club. There you can turn yourself inside out to your heart's content, as I do. Any passenger will be there for the thrill as well, but not the fare paying punter down the back of their flying gin palace.
The decision of a stable approach at 500' is made at 1000'. Most airlines in this day and age would take a grim view of 600kgs of fuel and 15 minutes of time being wasted due to such dramatics. And further, what are you teaching the future commanders by such action. I know I'm a hero & wizz bang jet jockey, I don't need to keep proving it.
The most relaxed training captain and superb operator I ever flew with was an ex-Red Arrow from the old days. Nowt to prove with a C.V like that. Everytrhing to lose if he went gungho.
Just a numbered other
Shaka
Which model 73 are you talking about?
I simply do not believe that a CFM idling at 30+ % NF can do this.
300kts on 10nm final is quite doable (on a 737),
I simply do not believe that a CFM idling at 30+ % NF can do this.
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Arkroyal:
Don't encourage him: but I did forget to include in my prognosis that I was talking of an NG. However, even a classic would be hard pushed. Perhaps he was talking of an old -200 with the Thrust Reversers disconnected from the squat switch; but then again not, as he said it was controllable. Ha!
Don't encourage him: but I did forget to include in my prognosis that I was talking of an NG. However, even a classic would be hard pushed. Perhaps he was talking of an old -200 with the Thrust Reversers disconnected from the squat switch; but then again not, as he said it was controllable. Ha!