Ryanair High Speed approach
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Roger
You're correct. He made a giant idiot of himself by behaving so stupidly, bust a shed load of rules and limits and should have known much better.
He was on his last day and wound himself in too deep trying to make it memorable.
Stupid stupid stupid.
Worse he tried to cover it up (after such stupidity it's no wonder!)
All I'm saying is I've seen folk who DID wrap the a/c round a hill or similar , killing hundreds, have an easier time on pprune than this clot!
Give the poor geezer a break. He fu*ked up but he got away with it.
Hope he learn't something tho'.
You're correct. He made a giant idiot of himself by behaving so stupidly, bust a shed load of rules and limits and should have known much better.
He was on his last day and wound himself in too deep trying to make it memorable.
Stupid stupid stupid.
Worse he tried to cover it up (after such stupidity it's no wonder!)
All I'm saying is I've seen folk who DID wrap the a/c round a hill or similar , killing hundreds, have an easier time on pprune than this clot!
Give the poor geezer a break. He fu*ked up but he got away with it.
Hope he learn't something tho'.
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Most people who wrap themselves around a mountain don't get the chance to speak up for themselves. This Captain should be banned from flying commercially, anywhere in the world. He IS an accident waiting to happen.
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Hope never to f**k up quite as dramatically as this gent but if this is the way the pilot community and more specifically the pprune community are going to disect ASR's this whole website is taking one big leap backwards in flight safety.
It's supposed to be a rumour site not a kangaroo court. Leave this sort of "Holier than thou" clap trap to the bar when the parking brake is well and truly on don't put this sort of rubbish down on print.
It's supposed to be a rumour site not a kangaroo court. Leave this sort of "Holier than thou" clap trap to the bar when the parking brake is well and truly on don't put this sort of rubbish down on print.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the whole point of this thread is that there was no ASR filed by the Captain, and that there was no tech log entry. He was caught by ATC reviewing radar plots. Being suckered into an approach like this and then continuing when all the warning signs are there to go-around can be debated until the cows come home. The problem is that the individual brushed it all under the carpet and flew an aircraft thats airworthiness was in doubt. That is the decision that borders on criminal.
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Luckily most pilots do dissect these reports when presented with them. Hopefully some learn from them.
However regarding: Vfe, stabilised approaches and landing speed, I think most pilot's jaws would just drop when they look at this report (in particular that green line showing the pitch angle). Like me they would have picked up these essentials fairly early on at the PPL stage and somehow managed to hold on to them for good. These basic limits may get get temporarily exceeded for a few seconds or degrees but never in such a deliberate or persistent fashion.
For those of you who have not bothered to read the report it's here:
http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?...g=ENG&loc=1652
This guy f**ked up royally in a multitude of areas and he is lucky to still have his license. That's about it.
Just don't say "ah sure it doesn't matter, better luck next time" and expect to get an easy ride here. A lot of people on this forum are actually pilots.
However regarding: Vfe, stabilised approaches and landing speed, I think most pilot's jaws would just drop when they look at this report (in particular that green line showing the pitch angle). Like me they would have picked up these essentials fairly early on at the PPL stage and somehow managed to hold on to them for good. These basic limits may get get temporarily exceeded for a few seconds or degrees but never in such a deliberate or persistent fashion.
For those of you who have not bothered to read the report it's here:
http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?...g=ENG&loc=1652
This guy f**ked up royally in a multitude of areas and he is lucky to still have his license. That's about it.
Just don't say "ah sure it doesn't matter, better luck next time" and expect to get an easy ride here. A lot of people on this forum are actually pilots.
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Afternoon chaps,
Well since this thread seems to have run it's course, here is a question from a lowly PPL on jet transport category aircraft handling.....
Looking at the report it is clear that some mighty large control inputs were made (kind of like a kay-san I witnessed from the flight deck of a C130 one time.....Ho hum!!)
Anyway, one technique I was taught for short field/emergency landings was the forward slip and jolly fun it was too practising whilst cicuit bashing in the good ol' 152, so my question is; is it possible/desireable to forward slip an aircraft of this category? If so, would this be preferable to loose the required height rather than the large (and impressive!?!) pitch inputs evident from the report?
(P.S. Before anyone mentions it, the aircraft should not have been in that position in the first place I know I know I know)
Ta
Well since this thread seems to have run it's course, here is a question from a lowly PPL on jet transport category aircraft handling.....
Looking at the report it is clear that some mighty large control inputs were made (kind of like a kay-san I witnessed from the flight deck of a C130 one time.....Ho hum!!)
Anyway, one technique I was taught for short field/emergency landings was the forward slip and jolly fun it was too practising whilst cicuit bashing in the good ol' 152, so my question is; is it possible/desireable to forward slip an aircraft of this category? If so, would this be preferable to loose the required height rather than the large (and impressive!?!) pitch inputs evident from the report?
(P.S. Before anyone mentions it, the aircraft should not have been in that position in the first place I know I know I know)
Ta
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brain fade I am assuming he will carry on down in Oz, that's all.
Having worked for FR, I know that a very high percentage of their crews are well trained and good aviators. Those with low hours need to start somewhere but I'm starting to worry about the overall level of experience in the flightdeck and the fact that not one, but two crew members can brush an incident like this under the carpet and hope they don't get caught ! It's beyond belief really.
Having worked for FR, I know that a very high percentage of their crews are well trained and good aviators. Those with low hours need to start somewhere but I'm starting to worry about the overall level of experience in the flightdeck and the fact that not one, but two crew members can brush an incident like this under the carpet and hope they don't get caught ! It's beyond belief really.
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Most preferable in a C152 feet dry. But I guess any FI will tell you that. A 737-800 - don't know if it's preferable but anything is better than those pitch inputs on that graph unless you are dodging rockets.
You're right on the other point, this thread has run it's course and has become a right royal pissing contest with much participation from me! Ta.
The pilots here know what is important about this case.
The wannabees here will no doubt find out in due course.
- Roger
You're right on the other point, this thread has run it's course and has become a right royal pissing contest with much participation from me! Ta.
The pilots here know what is important about this case.
The wannabees here will no doubt find out in due course.
- Roger
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An incident not an accident
Read the report. It specifically says: "It was fortuitous that the landing was carried out safely."
The word 'fortuitous' doesn't mean 'fortunate'. It means 'accidental, by chance, without apparent cause'.
In simpler terms - this aeroplane landed safely by chance, not as the result of any airmanship skills.
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Lemme get this straight: so you´re expecting an F/O (intimitdated through a ´the show must go on´ company cuture) to say "gime the tech log old, ´cus I wanna ground this aircraft?" You gotta be kidding!!! Even in EZY (which is according to the Brits ´supposedly´ better than Ryanair) F/O´s rarely get to touch the Tech Log, let alone make an entry in it!
I agree that preventing someone behaving erratically in the air could be close to impossible. On the ground is different.
The F/O knew there was a defect with the aircraft and has a duty to report, first to the Captain. If the Captain ignores it, the duty to report does not go away.
The F/O was prepared to get back in an aircraft he knew needed an inspection with cabin crew and passengers and a Captain who had recently shown scant disregard for SOP's, the AOM, CRM, airmanship etc. I'd be tempted to sack him also, he's not there for ballast!
F/O's need to know what they would do to break the chain of events unfolding and if they're not prepared to act why do they bother turning up ??
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Three things.
One. I know of another Captain who did something not a million miles different from this incident, who was also going through divorce.
Two. Some aviation sayings which those of us who fly know are true!
Never trade luck for skill.
Never fly in the same cockpit with someone braver than you. Basic Flying Rules: Try to stay in the middle of the air. Do not go near the edges of it. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there.
Three.
FO should have done more. Why didn't he put full power on and call a go-around, then they at least would have had the time to talk about it and it would have got a reaction. That FO didn't know that they were both going to survive had it run off the end of the runway. At the least, once on stand, he should have called the Chief Pilot at Ryanair and told him of the incident and ask the CP to fax him permission to return the aircraft, with passengers, without a tech inspection.
One. I know of another Captain who did something not a million miles different from this incident, who was also going through divorce.
Two. Some aviation sayings which those of us who fly know are true!
Never trade luck for skill.
Never fly in the same cockpit with someone braver than you. Basic Flying Rules: Try to stay in the middle of the air. Do not go near the edges of it. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there.
Three.
FO should have done more. Why didn't he put full power on and call a go-around, then they at least would have had the time to talk about it and it would have got a reaction. That FO didn't know that they were both going to survive had it run off the end of the runway. At the least, once on stand, he should have called the Chief Pilot at Ryanair and told him of the incident and ask the CP to fax him permission to return the aircraft, with passengers, without a tech inspection.
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'Getting away with it', as you describe the FR Capt in question as having done, is sometimes as much to do with chance as skill.
The times I have made mistakes and 'got away with it' have often involved their fair share of luck, as well as the better exertions of my colleagues.
Unfortunate circumstances for the chap concerned, important lesson learned for many. However, am I alone in cynicism when I see the old 'HF' angle being wheeled out (I was tired/stressed) only after the pilot was confronted with evidence of his reckless behaviour?
The whole point of CHIRP/ASRs etc. in allowing 'blame-free' safety culture is that you 'fess up on your own initiative; waiting until you get caught then finding a CHIRP-style 'explanation' (excuse?) for your actions leaves me a little sore.
Flying that aircraft again without proper maintenance action and a serious crew debrief was exceptionally reckless, stupid, and makes a mockery of those of us who try to promote our industry as 'professional'.
Does FR have a JAR-compliant FDM scheme in place yet? I don't think they're mandatory until next year, but I stand to be corrected on that.
The times I have made mistakes and 'got away with it' have often involved their fair share of luck, as well as the better exertions of my colleagues.
Unfortunate circumstances for the chap concerned, important lesson learned for many. However, am I alone in cynicism when I see the old 'HF' angle being wheeled out (I was tired/stressed) only after the pilot was confronted with evidence of his reckless behaviour?
The whole point of CHIRP/ASRs etc. in allowing 'blame-free' safety culture is that you 'fess up on your own initiative; waiting until you get caught then finding a CHIRP-style 'explanation' (excuse?) for your actions leaves me a little sore.
Flying that aircraft again without proper maintenance action and a serious crew debrief was exceptionally reckless, stupid, and makes a mockery of those of us who try to promote our industry as 'professional'.
Does FR have a JAR-compliant FDM scheme in place yet? I don't think they're mandatory until next year, but I stand to be corrected on that.
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To be clear, I'm not a professional pilot, but I wonder (like SR71) what would happen if the FO tried to take control and the capt wouldn't relinquish.
There seems to be a devils alternative (a) two people doing different things - ie one trying to land, the other to GA and the risks that this involves and (b) an unstabilised approach and operation out of limits and the risks that this involves.
I only hope that I'm never in the back if such a scenario plays out in the flight deck.
There seems to be a devils alternative (a) two people doing different things - ie one trying to land, the other to GA and the risks that this involves and (b) an unstabilised approach and operation out of limits and the risks that this involves.
I only hope that I'm never in the back if such a scenario plays out in the flight deck.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 6th Oct 2005 at 08:33.
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Is'nt it simpler to say, earlier, when the approach path has gone, thousands feet below, 'why don't we perform a 360°?'