NDB Tracking with wind
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NDB Tracking with wind
Can someone please advise me if there are any permited procedures to allow a pilot to adjust the outbound track of an NDB procedure to allow for a very strong crosswind.
Example: the published outbound track 090 with a 50 kt wind from the left.
Thanks
Example: the published outbound track 090 with a 50 kt wind from the left.
Thanks
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: the pub
Age: 57
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I think you may need to revise your basic ADF flying. You should be able to track away from an NDB on a specified ground track, regardless of wind. "
Hmmm,I don't think that was the question!
Pack 2 asked if there were any adjustments permitted to outbound track as there is in the hold.i.e 3 times drift to allow for a crosswind into the hold.
Legally speaking i'm not sure, but it would make sense to be wide enough so as not to drift through the inbound track on the base turn at rate one.
Anyone more knowledgable care to comment?
Hmmm,I don't think that was the question!
Pack 2 asked if there were any adjustments permitted to outbound track as there is in the hold.i.e 3 times drift to allow for a crosswind into the hold.
Legally speaking i'm not sure, but it would make sense to be wide enough so as not to drift through the inbound track on the base turn at rate one.
Anyone more knowledgable care to comment?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not a pilot but would suggest that providing you remain within the Holding Area slight adjustments to track should be OK. If you go outside the HA you may conflict with other traffic.
If a specfic track is shown it should be flown as promulgated since to do otherwise might compromise obstacle clearance.
Within a holding procedure allowance should be made for wind effect also.
Within a holding procedure allowance should be made for wind effect also.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bohol, Philippines
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For an approach with a base turn you must fly the published magnetic track. Similarly when joining a hold by the off-set (teardrop method) you must fly the 30 degree offset regardless of the wind.
However if the approach involves a procedure turn (rather than a base turn) you should correct for the effects of wind.
The source material for all this is PANS OPS 8168
However if the approach involves a procedure turn (rather than a base turn) you should correct for the effects of wind.
The source material for all this is PANS OPS 8168
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2 Donkeys
If you were an instrument rated pilot you would know why I asked the question which had nothing to do with the specific track outbound from the NDB rather I was asking what method other people use to prevent overflying the inbound track when you have an excessively, Ie over 50 kt, crosswind outbound.
May I forego the suggested basic trainning review in light of the fact that in this end there is 20,000 hours of flying and over 5,000 hours of IF time
If you were an instrument rated pilot you would know why I asked the question which had nothing to do with the specific track outbound from the NDB rather I was asking what method other people use to prevent overflying the inbound track when you have an excessively, Ie over 50 kt, crosswind outbound.
May I forego the suggested basic trainning review in light of the fact that in this end there is 20,000 hours of flying and over 5,000 hours of IF time
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pack 2
Before you and 2D's get into a pi$$ing contest as to hours flown (
) I would like to point out that your first post has probably been read by 99% of readers as "can you deviate from the published approach tracks", to which the answer is no if at all possible - if you have such a crosswind you adjust accordingly and try and fly it as close as possible.
In your second post you redefine the question by asking "what methods do people use to prevent overflying tracks". That question is probably better in one of the flying fora rather than the ATC one.
From an ATC point of view we couldn't care less how you achieve the procedural tracks required, just that you achieve them, especially when we're providing separation based on specific tracks being flown.
Before you and 2D's get into a pi$$ing contest as to hours flown (
) I would like to point out that your first post has probably been read by 99% of readers as "can you deviate from the published approach tracks", to which the answer is no if at all possible - if you have such a crosswind you adjust accordingly and try and fly it as close as possible.In your second post you redefine the question by asking "what methods do people use to prevent overflying tracks". That question is probably better in one of the flying fora rather than the ATC one.
From an ATC point of view we couldn't care less how you achieve the procedural tracks required, just that you achieve them, especially when we're providing separation based on specific tracks being flown.
Can someone please advise me if there are any permited procedures to allow a pilot to adjust the outbound track of an NDB procedure to allow for a very strong crosswind.
Wind effect. Due allowance should be made in both heading and timing to compensate for the effects of wind to regain the inbound track as accurately and expeditiously as possible to achieve a stabilized approach.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pack2 - not sure whether you have your answer, or even if most of us really understand the question? I'm not sure what your 20,000hr are on, but 50kts 'across' (not THAT unusual) on jets equates to around 15 degs of drift to track outbound, and with the (recommended) correction on the procedure turn (?left? - assuming that is what you are trying to fly?) you should not go through the inbound track. If, of course, your time is on 'helos', the drift is a tad more!
'Correcting' tracks for wind, as stated above, gives ATC a headache and COULD infringe terrain clearances. Perhaps it will help us and ATC if you tell us where and what have you encountered as a problem?
'Correcting' tracks for wind, as stated above, gives ATC a headache and COULD infringe terrain clearances. Perhaps it will help us and ATC if you tell us where and what have you encountered as a problem?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Either I'm missing something or reading too much into this, not sure which.
You fly whatever heading is required to maintain the published track, you don't correct the track. If you have to fly a heading of 050 to maintain the track of 070 then so be it, as long as you are on the 070 radial what is the problem?
You fly whatever heading is required to maintain the published track, you don't correct the track. If you have to fly a heading of 050 to maintain the track of 070 then so be it, as long as you are on the 070 radial what is the problem?
If you have to fly a heading of 050 to maintain the track of 070 then so be it, as long as you are on the 070 radial what is the problem?
Say the inbound is 270, and the wind is 360/40. If you start from the end of the 070 radial outbound, at the end of your 200 degree right turn you'll end up almost a mile south of the FAT, which is not a good place to begin a stabilised approach.
The principle is similar to that of allowing "triple drift" on the outbound leg of a crosswind hold to compensate for the different radii of the turns.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only way I can see this being a problem is if, when performing the base turn, you move the heading bug immediately 200 degree onto the inbound track and ignore the needles.
Basic IR training was to watch the needle throughout the turn, enabling you to judge your location relative to the inbound track and adjust the turn as necessary. Surely exactly the same airmanship skills should ensure a strong wind isn't a problem. Unless you forget about the wind of course
Basic IR training was to watch the needle throughout the turn, enabling you to judge your location relative to the inbound track and adjust the turn as necessary. Surely exactly the same airmanship skills should ensure a strong wind isn't a problem. Unless you forget about the wind of course
Basic IR training also teaches to be within 5 degrees before descending to the next alt/height. Procedure tracks should be flown as charted - if you happen to overshoot the inbound track you apply an appropriate attack and maintain alt until within 5 degrees and then descend (talking non precision approach here).
Basic IR training was to watch the needle throughout the turn, enabling you to judge your location relative to the inbound track and adjust the turn as necessary.
Procedure tracks should be flown as charted
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not suggesting you change your rate of turn, but if you're undershooting you roll out of the turn early to increase the angle at which you are intercepting the inbound track to ensure you intercept before the FAF, if you overshoot then continue the turn through the track to re-intercept.
Again, this is all basic stuff. I think I must be missing the point of the original question.
Again, this is all basic stuff. I think I must be missing the point of the original question.
Yes, I don't think Cosmos is misunderstanding the question at all. Of course you fly the required heading to maintain the outbound (published) track. Having arrived at the end of the o/b leg, and turning at Rate 1, it is not possible to compensate in the turn for a wind that will take you through the Inbound (Final Approach) Track. So when you go through you just have to re-establish from the other side.
I speak from a helicopter perspective where, as someone has said, the drift problem can be quite large. And that's what we do.
I speak from a helicopter perspective where, as someone has said, the drift problem can be quite large. And that's what we do.
I don't think anyone is misunderstanding the question. The issue is over the right answer! Three of you now have given answers that appear to contradict PANS-OPS.
PANS-OPS uses the same words to describe the adjustments permitted on the outbound leg of a course reversal in a procedure as it does for the outbound leg of a hold. But you presumably wouldn't fly the published outbound track of a hold in a strong crosswind, would you?! You'd compensate for drift in the turns by flying "triple drift".
So why not compensate for that on the outbound leg instead? Isn't it better to be a mile north of published track at the end of the outbound leg than a mile south of track when you turn through the inbound heading? I can think of two advantages: obstacle clearance is greater for the initial leg than the final leg; and you aren't messing around trying to re-establish from the other side when you should be flying a stabilised approach.
PANS-OPS uses the same words to describe the adjustments permitted on the outbound leg of a course reversal in a procedure as it does for the outbound leg of a hold. But you presumably wouldn't fly the published outbound track of a hold in a strong crosswind, would you?! You'd compensate for drift in the turns by flying "triple drift".
Having arrived at the end of the o/b leg, and turning at Rate 1, it is not possible to compensate in the turn for a wind that will take you through the Inbound (Final Approach) Track. So when you go through you just have to re-establish from the other side.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the Tearooms of Mars
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The maximum allowable drift to be applied outbound is 30 degrees.
If the drift is more than that then you could alter the bank angles for the turns, or in exceptional cases you could fly a wings level segment in the upwind turn.
If these measures are insufficient for maintaining the inbound track, you could ask ATC to fly inbound on a slightly different track.
Alternatively, don't bid to fly in windy weather.
If the drift is more than that then you could alter the bank angles for the turns, or in exceptional cases you could fly a wings level segment in the upwind turn.
If these measures are insufficient for maintaining the inbound track, you could ask ATC to fly inbound on a slightly different track.
Alternatively, don't bid to fly in windy weather.