Is contaminated bleed air harmful? YES...
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Neutrino, I know what you mean having flown the 146 for 4 years but now with XX on the 737 but still get gassed but to a lesser extent.
The 146 is not a safe working environment and after one of our pilots was terminated because our employer could not 'ensure a safe working environment' you had to shut up or vote with your feet! I recall several flights where crews forgot to lower the gear, or missed RT calls or acted dumb as their heads were not working as you would expect when we smelt the dirty socks. But you know how it is, nobody speaks out. I should have then and do now.
To answer the question by Trol E Doll, first we had many passengers complaining and getting off sick but we never asked who they were so hell knows what happens to the sick passengers and young children. My cousin is a legal guy in Perth and he tells me there are over 100 accepted 'workers compensation claims' in all states of Australia due to individuals being sick due to air contamination events.
I remember one flight into Perth we had nearly all the passengers asleep and the plane smelt bad, 2 FAs could not get off their seats and it was lunchtime! To me that was CO and others toxic compounds that did that, the captain refused to write it up.
We never used oxygen but if I was back on the flying gas chamber I would now. It has affected me I am sure of it.
The 146 is not a safe working environment and after one of our pilots was terminated because our employer could not 'ensure a safe working environment' you had to shut up or vote with your feet! I recall several flights where crews forgot to lower the gear, or missed RT calls or acted dumb as their heads were not working as you would expect when we smelt the dirty socks. But you know how it is, nobody speaks out. I should have then and do now.
To answer the question by Trol E Doll, first we had many passengers complaining and getting off sick but we never asked who they were so hell knows what happens to the sick passengers and young children. My cousin is a legal guy in Perth and he tells me there are over 100 accepted 'workers compensation claims' in all states of Australia due to individuals being sick due to air contamination events.
I remember one flight into Perth we had nearly all the passengers asleep and the plane smelt bad, 2 FAs could not get off their seats and it was lunchtime! To me that was CO and others toxic compounds that did that, the captain refused to write it up.
We never used oxygen but if I was back on the flying gas chamber I would now. It has affected me I am sure of it.
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How would I know if I am breathing contaminated air? Is there a smell or is it odourless?
I have experienced a "wet oily rag" smell on A320 aircraft.
Whats the risk - is it a cumalative affect or will one exposure cause problems?
What about fumes from jet engines (eg when taxying behind another aircraft)?
Also, when the engines are shut down they are smokey as oil seems to be burnt. This is causing concern amongst fuelers and pilots doing the walk-round. Is there any potential problem with this?
Cheers.
I have experienced a "wet oily rag" smell on A320 aircraft.
Whats the risk - is it a cumalative affect or will one exposure cause problems?
What about fumes from jet engines (eg when taxying behind another aircraft)?
Also, when the engines are shut down they are smokey as oil seems to be burnt. This is causing concern amongst fuelers and pilots doing the walk-round. Is there any potential problem with this?
Cheers.
Dave
You pose some basic questions that I suggest you should not be over concerned about.
We all breathe contaminated air in aircraft and our daily activities, the issue is the extent of any harm (if any) from contaminants – what are they and thus what are their concentrations. The current and quite rightly valid concern arises predominantly from oil in the air supply. Most modern oil formulations contain potentially harmful contaminants, but to date none of the science based investigations have identified any concentrations that would endanger health, even after a major oil leak. Some research suggests that there are several orders of magnitude of safety margin.
The immediate in-flight risks arise from the irritant effect of a contaminant and other constituents of oil. For example the ‘sweaty socks’ smell may come from valeric acid (Pentanoic Acid) in oil. Apart from the smell it is highly irritable even in the lowest concentrations and may effect vision and give a distinctly unwell feeling (sickness).
Oil contamination can result from overfilling APUs, engine leaks, or residual oil deposits from previous failures that have not been cleaned properly (plus de-icing fluid, acid rain, skin, and everything else in a conditioning system).
The defences are to apply threat and error management principles; avoid the problem in the first place with good maintenance and rectification; where problems are identified combat the threat with safety drills and then mitigate the effects; if the problem is serious then the aircraft safety is paramount - divert. Serious problems are rare events, although currently there is excessive attention on the subject. Perhaps like flight without hydraulics when the novelty of the event occurrence wears off the industry will revert to a more balanced view.
If more than a transient oil smell is detected then precautions against irritation should be taken; use oxygen masks, goggles, etc. Beware the human factor of adapting to the intensity of a smell, you think that it has decreased over time, but it has not. Also be aware of differences in personal susceptibility to both irritants and smells; some smells in the extreme can be disabling.
Illness or degraded performance due to irritants are rare, but can be self generating and infectious, this may result in pseudo illness in other crew members. Again human issues - ‘it won’t effect me’, but it could.
Fresh oil smell is an indicator of a transient or change; old oil smells and a range of other smells have been associated with longer term problems – residual oil, dirty air conditioning systems (or aircraft), or the original problem not being fixed. Beware of ‘ground tested found serviceable – no oils smell/leak detected’.
Jet engine fumes are predominately carbon monoxide; whilst this is potentially lethal your exposure risks are far higher on the journey to work than taxying behind another aircraft – it is the change of conditions that you are detecting.
As for cumulative effects the debate continues, but I think your best policy is to avoid smokers rather than worry about flying. Worry contributes to stress, which degrades human performance, which is central to safe operations.
You pose some basic questions that I suggest you should not be over concerned about.
We all breathe contaminated air in aircraft and our daily activities, the issue is the extent of any harm (if any) from contaminants – what are they and thus what are their concentrations. The current and quite rightly valid concern arises predominantly from oil in the air supply. Most modern oil formulations contain potentially harmful contaminants, but to date none of the science based investigations have identified any concentrations that would endanger health, even after a major oil leak. Some research suggests that there are several orders of magnitude of safety margin.
The immediate in-flight risks arise from the irritant effect of a contaminant and other constituents of oil. For example the ‘sweaty socks’ smell may come from valeric acid (Pentanoic Acid) in oil. Apart from the smell it is highly irritable even in the lowest concentrations and may effect vision and give a distinctly unwell feeling (sickness).
Oil contamination can result from overfilling APUs, engine leaks, or residual oil deposits from previous failures that have not been cleaned properly (plus de-icing fluid, acid rain, skin, and everything else in a conditioning system).
The defences are to apply threat and error management principles; avoid the problem in the first place with good maintenance and rectification; where problems are identified combat the threat with safety drills and then mitigate the effects; if the problem is serious then the aircraft safety is paramount - divert. Serious problems are rare events, although currently there is excessive attention on the subject. Perhaps like flight without hydraulics when the novelty of the event occurrence wears off the industry will revert to a more balanced view.
If more than a transient oil smell is detected then precautions against irritation should be taken; use oxygen masks, goggles, etc. Beware the human factor of adapting to the intensity of a smell, you think that it has decreased over time, but it has not. Also be aware of differences in personal susceptibility to both irritants and smells; some smells in the extreme can be disabling.
Illness or degraded performance due to irritants are rare, but can be self generating and infectious, this may result in pseudo illness in other crew members. Again human issues - ‘it won’t effect me’, but it could.
Fresh oil smell is an indicator of a transient or change; old oil smells and a range of other smells have been associated with longer term problems – residual oil, dirty air conditioning systems (or aircraft), or the original problem not being fixed. Beware of ‘ground tested found serviceable – no oils smell/leak detected’.
Jet engine fumes are predominately carbon monoxide; whilst this is potentially lethal your exposure risks are far higher on the journey to work than taxying behind another aircraft – it is the change of conditions that you are detecting.
As for cumulative effects the debate continues, but I think your best policy is to avoid smokers rather than worry about flying. Worry contributes to stress, which degrades human performance, which is central to safe operations.
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Its nice to see that industry by way of 'safetypee' are up to their ususal games of misinforming everyone.
Lets look at the facts:
1. Crews are reporting neurological problems and Exxon Mobil and other lubricant manufacturers admit they have never tested their products for any effect less than OPIDN, they have NEVER tested for Chronic Neurotoxic effects and NEVER tested the effects of their product heated and inhaled by test animals (except crews and passengers).
2. UK CAA admit in their 2004 paper they have not look at long term effects.
3. The organophosphate TCP has been found on the walls of the cockpit, on pilots trousers in HEPA filters and in roof top filters (Chris van Netten BALPA conference, London 2005)
4. CAA and AAIB are protecting British Industry i.e. British Aeropace and not crews and the passengers. T&G, ITF, BALPA and IPA all accept crews crews are sick, but CAA DEAF!
5. British pilot union BALPA conference of May 2005 concluded crews are sick.
So stop the lies and listen to the facts. Crews and passengers are sick when filters could have been fitted to protect them. My best friend is also UK cabin crew and she is sick and her employer has accepted liability on a fume exposure.
When I smell fumes I tell any passenger who asks exactly what the smell is what they are being exposed to as the pilots are too scared to do so.
Lets look at the facts:
1. Crews are reporting neurological problems and Exxon Mobil and other lubricant manufacturers admit they have never tested their products for any effect less than OPIDN, they have NEVER tested for Chronic Neurotoxic effects and NEVER tested the effects of their product heated and inhaled by test animals (except crews and passengers).
2. UK CAA admit in their 2004 paper they have not look at long term effects.
3. The organophosphate TCP has been found on the walls of the cockpit, on pilots trousers in HEPA filters and in roof top filters (Chris van Netten BALPA conference, London 2005)
4. CAA and AAIB are protecting British Industry i.e. British Aeropace and not crews and the passengers. T&G, ITF, BALPA and IPA all accept crews crews are sick, but CAA DEAF!
5. British pilot union BALPA conference of May 2005 concluded crews are sick.
So stop the lies and listen to the facts. Crews and passengers are sick when filters could have been fitted to protect them. My best friend is also UK cabin crew and she is sick and her employer has accepted liability on a fume exposure.
When I smell fumes I tell any passenger who asks exactly what the smell is what they are being exposed to as the pilots are too scared to do so.
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An interesting thread here! Seems like a number of people, not as many as appears from the names, but does appear from the style of writing, are trying to get a campaign going! I assume like over here, some serious green stuff stands to be made if they win.
Always thought that those who shout loud and aggressive have a poor case and so it seems. Anyone who challenges these allegations (unproven it seems) get a real earful! The USAF had 500 plus F111’s 500 plus C130s so where are our affected persons, or do the Aussies have something unique to deal with? Perhaps after all our junk food we have got hardened to it!
How do you filter out the smell of Bar B Q seagull or, do you Brits and Aussies have the technology for that ahead of us? We get stuff like that on TV, this will fix your cooker clean your car, etc. I figure if it really was that cheap and easy it would be done already, but I am a simple old country boy flying airplanes!
Can I get stocks in the outfit making this claim to fix this problem, they will be printing cash if it works?
Always thought that those who shout loud and aggressive have a poor case and so it seems. Anyone who challenges these allegations (unproven it seems) get a real earful! The USAF had 500 plus F111’s 500 plus C130s so where are our affected persons, or do the Aussies have something unique to deal with? Perhaps after all our junk food we have got hardened to it!
How do you filter out the smell of Bar B Q seagull or, do you Brits and Aussies have the technology for that ahead of us? We get stuff like that on TV, this will fix your cooker clean your car, etc. I figure if it really was that cheap and easy it would be done already, but I am a simple old country boy flying airplanes!
Can I get stocks in the outfit making this claim to fix this problem, they will be printing cash if it works?
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Gents,
Do yourselves a favour and have a look at the M.S.D.S. (Material safety data sheets..) sheets for jet II, If that is the oil the 146 runs.... It is very nasty stuff. As a vapour I am sure it would be even worse!!
Regards...
Do yourselves a favour and have a look at the M.S.D.S. (Material safety data sheets..) sheets for jet II, If that is the oil the 146 runs.... It is very nasty stuff. As a vapour I am sure it would be even worse!!
Regards...
www.aopis.org
(Aviation Organophoshate Information Site)
Thread Starter
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FAA bleed air research project, including incident exposure data and health effects gets the go ahead.
We wish to congratulate the American Flight Attendants Association (AFA) and the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) for being accepted as the 2 union representative bodies on the US$ 1.9 million Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) funded project on bleed air research, which was given the final approval to begin last week and will finish in March 2007. This research will be conducted by the "Occupational Health Research Consortium in Aviation" (OHRCA) and members of the “FAA Center of Excellence for Airliner Cabin Environment Research" (ACER).
We also commend the US FAA for taking a world lead on researching openly this issue unlike some other regulators who do all they can to 'confuse' and 'mislead' the public and crews.
We wish to congratulate the American Flight Attendants Association (AFA) and the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) for being accepted as the 2 union representative bodies on the US$ 1.9 million Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) funded project on bleed air research, which was given the final approval to begin last week and will finish in March 2007. This research will be conducted by the "Occupational Health Research Consortium in Aviation" (OHRCA) and members of the “FAA Center of Excellence for Airliner Cabin Environment Research" (ACER).
We also commend the US FAA for taking a world lead on researching openly this issue unlike some other regulators who do all they can to 'confuse' and 'mislead' the public and crews.
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I work for a 'leading' regional carrier, good job but we also have repeated air quality events. My union the AFA are doing video screening and information sessions in August and I hope to attend one of those. Visit http://ashsd.afacwa.org for details. People ask what its like to live an air quality event. It really depends on the individual, I have seen crews with tremors, others cannot count or remember what the guy in 20A wanted to drink. If we had an emergency many would not be able to open the doors let alone help the passengers. Air Quality events may not be every day on the job but they are real and you need to know the symptoms to make the link. Jane.
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Looks like Flybe's troubles are just starting, with more reports and incidents on their Dash 8- 400's coming to the fore.
Todays divertion to LBA is just another example of trouble a head.
With the introduction of the Embaer 195 next year you would have thought their troubles were nearly over. Far from it, it seems.
With the large orders for the -400, they may be in for a rude awakening.
Todays divertion to LBA is just another example of trouble a head.
With the introduction of the Embaer 195 next year you would have thought their troubles were nearly over. Far from it, it seems.
With the large orders for the -400, they may be in for a rude awakening.
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One of my buddies was crewing the flight below and he is NOT the first to smell the oil fumes but maybe one of the first to have the courage to act within US Airways.
We know what your talking about!
I know our airline has at least 2 gals sick from breathing the stuff.
US Airways plane makes unscheduled landing due to "odor" in cabin
http://rdu.news14.com/content/headli...=72924&SecID=2
We know what your talking about!
I know our airline has at least 2 gals sick from breathing the stuff.
US Airways plane makes unscheduled landing due to "odor" in cabin
http://rdu.news14.com/content/headli...=72924&SecID=2
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Yet again Fly Be exposing passengers and crews to contaminated air. They must do more than all other UK airlines put together! I agree with "CosmosSchwartz" Its always a Fly BE 146 or Dash 8 in the news for gassing sessions. I wonder if the passengers were told that they may develop neuroligical problems or have preganancy problems as a result of being exposed to burnt oil that contains the neurotoxic organophospahte TCP. I guess not.
It is a real disgrace that airlines do not offer crews and passengers the appropriate medical care following such events.
What is the CAA or HSE doing about this ?
Dash 8 now number 5 in the gas chamber charts...
1. Bae 146
2. MD80
3. B757
4. E-145
5. Dash 8
6. A320
7. B737-700
8. A330
9. F27
10. B777
It is a real disgrace that airlines do not offer crews and passengers the appropriate medical care following such events.
What is the CAA or HSE doing about this ?
Dash 8 now number 5 in the gas chamber charts...
1. Bae 146
2. MD80
3. B757
4. E-145
5. Dash 8
6. A320
7. B737-700
8. A330
9. F27
10. B777
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Remember flying the F27. After the flight, if you wiped your head with a white towel, it turned completely black.
And the smell with came from your clothes, just terrible.
And the smell with came from your clothes, just terrible.
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I am left seat on a 757 for a cargo company and whether you believe the fumes are bad or OK, its happening alot. I and crews I fly with often get headaches, fatigue and blisters in our mouth soon after brething the fumes.
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Had the old smelly socks smell on the aircraft the other day whenever APU bleed air was selected. Some of the cabin crew felt nauseous and extremely weary but apparently because the problem could be isolated by not using APU bleed air and no-one passed out, it could not be entered into the tech log according to the engineers. And so the cycle of contaminations with nothing done to fix the problem repeats. 
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The ill wind of still-unknown circumstances that brought down the Helios 737 on Sunday will, with great certainty, bring concentrated attention to the topic that many have discussed here.
Organize your information and get your facts ready. Become prepared to describe the specifics you know - about incidents of flight deck and cabin air contamination - in a clear and unemotional manner.
Sad circumstances, but the connection is inescapable. The longer-term reaction to this tragedy seems to have the potential to focus greater attention regarding onboard air contamination in a manner that will lead to positive changes for future health and safety.
Organize your information and get your facts ready. Become prepared to describe the specifics you know - about incidents of flight deck and cabin air contamination - in a clear and unemotional manner.
Sad circumstances, but the connection is inescapable. The longer-term reaction to this tragedy seems to have the potential to focus greater attention regarding onboard air contamination in a manner that will lead to positive changes for future health and safety.
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Used to get it on our ERJ-145's but can't remember when I last smelt it. Was a 'smelly socks' type smell. Bleed air comes from one of two stages depending on power setting and it may have been present as air changed over from one stage to the other. It is fixable and has been as like I said it doesn't seem to happen now, but was very common at one time.
Never affected me anyway (I think!)
Never affected me anyway (I think!)
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Reference the sad news of the crashed Cypriot 737:
See:
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main...21375&cat_id=1
“There are many theories being discussed. For example, I have just got off the phone to some colleagues in Greece who suspect that toxic and non-detectable fumes, like carbon monoxide, from the air condition system, may have leaked into the cockpit and caused the pilots to lose consciousness. However, that would not explain any possible cabin pressure drop.”
It may be nothing to do with this thread but surely this should be a reminder that detection systems be fitted URGENTLY.
See:
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main...21375&cat_id=1
“There are many theories being discussed. For example, I have just got off the phone to some colleagues in Greece who suspect that toxic and non-detectable fumes, like carbon monoxide, from the air condition system, may have leaked into the cockpit and caused the pilots to lose consciousness. However, that would not explain any possible cabin pressure drop.”
It may be nothing to do with this thread but surely this should be a reminder that detection systems be fitted URGENTLY.
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A320 contaminated cabin air
We have had this problem on our A320 fleet for year, coming and going. Some times the "old socks" smell, other times a "chemical" smell. It appears almost always during descent, around 10-15000 ft, often starting in the rear cabin.
Most times maintenance finds a oil or hydraulic leak at the aft underside of the fuselage, and says these fluids enter the APU air inlet, and then then the aircondition.
Our company says engine oil is NOT harmful, but only hydraulic fluids in aircond. system is harmful ?
Other out there with contaminated cabin air experience on the A320 ?
Most times maintenance finds a oil or hydraulic leak at the aft underside of the fuselage, and says these fluids enter the APU air inlet, and then then the aircondition.
Our company says engine oil is NOT harmful, but only hydraulic fluids in aircond. system is harmful ?
Other out there with contaminated cabin air experience on the A320 ?
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Have occasionally smelt an emulsion paint type smell, also a bit like "Fuller's Earth".
Only experienced this on one A320, during descent and as previous correspondent describes, passing FL150 down to 100.
Will be interesting to see if industry addresses this issue.
Hold your breath chaps.
Only experienced this on one A320, during descent and as previous correspondent describes, passing FL150 down to 100.
Will be interesting to see if industry addresses this issue.
Hold your breath chaps.