Is contaminated bleed air harmful? YES...
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This thread is amazing.
Lets sort the facts from fiction:[list=1]
The oil sometimes contaminates the bleed air supply - FACT.
Synthetic jet engine oils have NEVER been tested for chronic neurotoxic effects via inhalation - FACT.
Crews report a selection of neurological effects that have only occured following repeated exposure to contaminated air - FACT.
Operating crews have become incapacitated during a contaminated air event - FACT.
Sampling of the air supply by BRE for the CAA was NOT done during a reported contaminated air event and therefore only sampled air during non contaminated air events. BRE stated: '“The intentions of the study was not to monitor the air quality during any ‘unusual circumstances’ rather emphasis being on obtaining data from scheduled flights.” Therefore the air during a contaminated air event is unkown - FACT.
BALPA conference in 2005 concluded crews are sick long term - FACT.
CAA DON'T know if there are or are not any long term effects from exposure to contaminated air as they acknowledged in their 2004 Cabin Air quality paper by their comment: ' “Although some references are made concerning long-term health effects, the scope of this research did not include an attempt to determine the extent of any such risk.” - FACT
Exposure standards do not apply for commercial aviation - FACT
BAe 146 has 3 ADs related to contaminated air - FACT
'Bleed Air' could be filtered if airlines wanted to - FACT
T&G have called for filtration systems to be fitted to ALL commercial jet aircraft above a MTOW of 5700 Kgs - FACT
T&G cabin crew in legal action against their employer for neurological problems following a contaminated air event - FACT [/list=1]
SOLUTION IS SIMPLE, ACCEPT CREWS ARE GETTING SICK AND FIT FILTERS - ITS A COMMON SENSE SOLUTION TO A 30 YEAR OLD PROBLEM!
Lets sort the facts from fiction:[list=1]
The oil sometimes contaminates the bleed air supply - FACT.
Synthetic jet engine oils have NEVER been tested for chronic neurotoxic effects via inhalation - FACT.
Crews report a selection of neurological effects that have only occured following repeated exposure to contaminated air - FACT.
Operating crews have become incapacitated during a contaminated air event - FACT.
Sampling of the air supply by BRE for the CAA was NOT done during a reported contaminated air event and therefore only sampled air during non contaminated air events. BRE stated: '“The intentions of the study was not to monitor the air quality during any ‘unusual circumstances’ rather emphasis being on obtaining data from scheduled flights.” Therefore the air during a contaminated air event is unkown - FACT.
BALPA conference in 2005 concluded crews are sick long term - FACT.
CAA DON'T know if there are or are not any long term effects from exposure to contaminated air as they acknowledged in their 2004 Cabin Air quality paper by their comment: ' “Although some references are made concerning long-term health effects, the scope of this research did not include an attempt to determine the extent of any such risk.” - FACT
Exposure standards do not apply for commercial aviation - FACT
BAe 146 has 3 ADs related to contaminated air - FACT
'Bleed Air' could be filtered if airlines wanted to - FACT
T&G have called for filtration systems to be fitted to ALL commercial jet aircraft above a MTOW of 5700 Kgs - FACT
T&G cabin crew in legal action against their employer for neurological problems following a contaminated air event - FACT [/list=1]
SOLUTION IS SIMPLE, ACCEPT CREWS ARE GETTING SICK AND FIT FILTERS - ITS A COMMON SENSE SOLUTION TO A 30 YEAR OLD PROBLEM!
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Mach1October14
Let's talk about full of nonsense, shall we? Nonsense being what your argument is.
Please note the word "potential" in that sentence - in other words, "we think it might be possible, but we don't know".
Well since you don't know what my name is, how do you know you haven't seen my name on any papers? Are you sure you aren't on some sort of mind-altering substance?
Prove it.
Never Trust A Manage
lomapaseo is right, your list is largely supposition.
But just for some sunday fun, let's look at a few of your "facts" -
You don't know what caused the neurological effects in those crews - the link has yet to be established scientifically.
No, they suffered "some degree of incapacitation". If they had been incapacitated, everybody would be dead.
Sampling was carried out on an aircraft that had just had a fumes event, and had not been touched between the two flights (with respect to the air con system). Other than monitor every flight, there is no better way to carry out research. By the way, this "fact" compromises your previous "facts".
Well they would, wouldn't they, they are a pilots union which smells massive payouts, under significant pressure from their major customer (BA pilots).
The rest of your "facts" come under the heading of "so what?"
Let's talk about full of nonsense, shall we? Nonsense being what your argument is.
resulting in the potential to produce neurotoxicity
If your such an expert how come I never see your name on any papers, in expert groups like SAE etc ??
Pyrolised synthetic turbine oil IS toxic
Never Trust A Manage
lomapaseo is right, your list is largely supposition.
But just for some sunday fun, let's look at a few of your "facts" -
Crews report a selection of neurological effects that have only occured following repeated exposure to contaminated air - FACT.
Operating crews have become incapacitated during a contaminated air event - FACT.
Sampling of the air supply by BRE for the CAA was NOT done during a reported contaminated air event and therefore only sampled air during non contaminated air events. BRE stated: '“The intentions of the study was not to monitor the air quality during any ‘unusual circumstances’ rather emphasis being on obtaining data from scheduled flights.” Therefore the air during a contaminated air event is unkown - FACT.
BALPA conference in 2005 concluded crews are sick long term - FACT.
The rest of your "facts" come under the heading of "so what?"
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MOR have you seen a doctor recently ? You may be suffering from the sometimes reported physiological problems associated with exposure to organophosphates.
When you say rubbish like:
No, they suffered "some degree of incapacitation". If they had been incapacitated, everybody would be dead.
The point I think 'Never Trust A Manage' was making and he is correct is that some of the crew have become incapacitated.
So far we think we have been lucky but who knows?
I think the dig at BALPA is unfounded especially as BA is the minority within the membership. Are you a member ?
I fly the -400 and it is not for BA but know many crews who have been affected, some for ever.
Get a life man and help the issue rather than talk rubbish
When you say rubbish like:
No, they suffered "some degree of incapacitation". If they had been incapacitated, everybody would be dead.
The point I think 'Never Trust A Manage' was making and he is correct is that some of the crew have become incapacitated.
So far we think we have been lucky but who knows?
I think the dig at BALPA is unfounded especially as BA is the minority within the membership. Are you a member ?
I fly the -400 and it is not for BA but know many crews who have been affected, some for ever.
Get a life man and help the issue rather than talk rubbish
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The point I think 'Never Trust A Manage' was making and he is correct is that some of the crew have become incapacitated.
I think the dig at BALPA is unfounded especially as BA is the minority within the membership. Are you a member ?
And yes, I am a member. Have been for over 20 years. When I joined, BA were far and away the majority membership.
What will help the issue more than anything, is some clear thinking and proper research, not the crap maquerading as fact that so many posters here would prefer to indulge in.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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I have to agree with MOR on the points about scientific research. It is all very well expounding on this or other forums about second hand experiences or even first hand experiences where there was no conclusive proof as to the source of the experience in the first place.
Until there is proper research into the suspected problems no one is going to admit to anything, especially if they may be liable in some way.
Dramatic statements on here and infuriating responses to people like MOR who are pointing out to you the flaws in your arguments only serve to show you up as over sensitive drama queens. You may not agree but that is how it appears to those of us who have not had any experience of contaminated air events and have flown some of the types that are supposedly more likely to have them.
I think that it is agreed that there should be more research into the problem. However, you first have to convince someone to part with the money to fund the research. Ranting on here without acceptable evidence is a waste of time and effort. If you can agree that it hasn't been proven but there MAY be a problem, then you are at least one step nearer to finding out, one way or another, as to what all the fuss was about.
Until there is proper research into the suspected problems no one is going to admit to anything, especially if they may be liable in some way.
Dramatic statements on here and infuriating responses to people like MOR who are pointing out to you the flaws in your arguments only serve to show you up as over sensitive drama queens. You may not agree but that is how it appears to those of us who have not had any experience of contaminated air events and have flown some of the types that are supposedly more likely to have them.
I think that it is agreed that there should be more research into the problem. However, you first have to convince someone to part with the money to fund the research. Ranting on here without acceptable evidence is a waste of time and effort. If you can agree that it hasn't been proven but there MAY be a problem, then you are at least one step nearer to finding out, one way or another, as to what all the fuss was about.
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This may be of interest; and believe it or not, it was written in 1977!!!
Clin Toxicol. 1977;11(4):423-6. Related Articles, Links
Human intoxication following inhalation exposure to synthetic jet lubricating oil.
Montgomery MR, Wier GT, Zieve FJ, Anders MW.
A previously healthy member of an aircraft flight crew was acutely incapacitated during flight with neurologic impairment and gastrointestinal distress. His clinical status returned to normal within 24 hr. The etiology of his symptoms was related to an inhalation exposure to aerosolized or vaporized synthetic lubricating oil arising from a jet engine of his aircraft.
Publication Types:
Case Reports
PMID: 589955 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...str&query_hl=6
Clin Toxicol. 1977;11(4):423-6. Related Articles, Links
Human intoxication following inhalation exposure to synthetic jet lubricating oil.
Montgomery MR, Wier GT, Zieve FJ, Anders MW.
A previously healthy member of an aircraft flight crew was acutely incapacitated during flight with neurologic impairment and gastrointestinal distress. His clinical status returned to normal within 24 hr. The etiology of his symptoms was related to an inhalation exposure to aerosolized or vaporized synthetic lubricating oil arising from a jet engine of his aircraft.
Publication Types:
Case Reports
PMID: 589955 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...str&query_hl=6
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Look at me! Look at me! I can use Google!
No idea what the article says, or where it can be found, or what's in it... but that doesn't matter, does it? After all, it (might) support my case!
No idea what the article says, or where it can be found, or what's in it... but that doesn't matter, does it? After all, it (might) support my case!
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Danny
I agree more research would be very sensible but as long as it is free of industry influence and not more of the past 'hired gun' type of research such as BRE work in the UK.
Let universities do it as they have nothing to gain from the answers is my suggestion.
Thanks
I agree more research would be very sensible but as long as it is free of industry influence and not more of the past 'hired gun' type of research such as BRE work in the UK.
Let universities do it as they have nothing to gain from the answers is my suggestion.
Thanks
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As a concerned passenger I asked the pilot today what information she had about fumes in the aircraft. She (pretty as well) kindly told me to look at the pilot union website and gave me the internet address.
For those wanting more information, the pilots have some good informative stuff. I have pasted the internet address below as it took me a while to find it. Just click on the link.
http://www.balpa.org./intranet/BALPA...rcra/index.htm
For those wanting more information, the pilots have some good informative stuff. I have pasted the internet address below as it took me a while to find it. Just click on the link.
http://www.balpa.org./intranet/BALPA...rcra/index.htm
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Thanks for the info 'Jippo'. BALPA should be congratulated for being the first pilot labour group to take these matters seriously.
Come folks here in the US, WAKE UP!
This needs to be approached with the same energy.
Come folks here in the US, WAKE UP!
This needs to be approached with the same energy.
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Looks like a post was deleted. I had an e-mail alert that a "Mister Geezer" had replied to This Topic that I contributed towards recently. Dated 25/10/2005.
Where is this reply.
And No I can't find it on "Tech Log " forum either???????
Where is this reply.
And No I can't find it on "Tech Log " forum either???????
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T&G says government should come clean on contaminated air on commercial aircraft
T&G says government should come clean on contaminated air on commercial aircraft
The Transport and General Workers Union today called on the government to tell the millions of people who fly on commercial airlines that they are sometimes being exposed to contaminated air on jet aircraft. Union officials representing cabin crew said these risks have been present for over thirty years but successive governments, as well as the airlines, have not told passengers what they have been exposed to nor have they spelt out the risks of exposure.
Oliver Richardson, T&G regional industrial organiser, said when air is contaminated on commercial jet aircraft this results in a slightly chemical, wet dog, vomit, dirty sock type smell in the cabin. He added that the T&G has been advised that contamination means crew and passengers breathe air which will contain volatile organic compounds such as benzene, the organophosphate TCP and possibly carbon monoxide as these would be present due to the air being contaminated with pyrolised engine oils and hydraulic fluids.
“Exposure to contaminated air results in crews having symptoms which include headaches, nausea, respiratory, gastro-intestinal, temporary mild flu-like symptoms and such like in the short term and a selection of neurological type problems in the long term,” he explained. “The chronic neurotoxicity of inhaling these heated compounds has never been tested. Only extreme medical conditions such as the medical condition OPIDN has been investigated in hens. This is very different to the neurological and other injuries consistently being reported by crews and passengers following these events.”
A report last week by the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution on ‘Crop Spraying and the Health of Residents and Bystanders’ was cited in support of the union’s concerns. Section 5.47 of that report said: “We recommend that in consultations and in dialogue with the public concerning pesticides, as in other areas of uncertainty, science should not be positioned without argument as being beyond doubt. It should be presented in a manner that is open about the level of risk and uncertainty involved.”
Mr. Richardson said union representatives were calling on the government to:
The Transport and General Workers Union today called on the government to tell the millions of people who fly on commercial airlines that they are sometimes being exposed to contaminated air on jet aircraft. Union officials representing cabin crew said these risks have been present for over thirty years but successive governments, as well as the airlines, have not told passengers what they have been exposed to nor have they spelt out the risks of exposure.
Oliver Richardson, T&G regional industrial organiser, said when air is contaminated on commercial jet aircraft this results in a slightly chemical, wet dog, vomit, dirty sock type smell in the cabin. He added that the T&G has been advised that contamination means crew and passengers breathe air which will contain volatile organic compounds such as benzene, the organophosphate TCP and possibly carbon monoxide as these would be present due to the air being contaminated with pyrolised engine oils and hydraulic fluids.
“Exposure to contaminated air results in crews having symptoms which include headaches, nausea, respiratory, gastro-intestinal, temporary mild flu-like symptoms and such like in the short term and a selection of neurological type problems in the long term,” he explained. “The chronic neurotoxicity of inhaling these heated compounds has never been tested. Only extreme medical conditions such as the medical condition OPIDN has been investigated in hens. This is very different to the neurological and other injuries consistently being reported by crews and passengers following these events.”
A report last week by the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution on ‘Crop Spraying and the Health of Residents and Bystanders’ was cited in support of the union’s concerns. Section 5.47 of that report said: “We recommend that in consultations and in dialogue with the public concerning pesticides, as in other areas of uncertainty, science should not be positioned without argument as being beyond doubt. It should be presented in a manner that is open about the level of risk and uncertainty involved.”
Mr. Richardson said union representatives were calling on the government to:
- Stop the denial that there is a serious health and safety issue linked to contaminated air on commercial jet aircraft both in the UK and worldwide.
- Tell airlines that they must inform passengers and crew they have been exposed rather than the current silence.
- Advise passengers and crews of the fact that they are sometimes being exposed to these toxic compounds and the neurotoxicity of inhaling these heated oils and hydraulic fluids has never been tested.
- Recommend to all airlines to fit bleed air filtration systems to commercial jet aircraft as currently the air being supplied from the engines is not filtered for contaminants.
- Fit contaminated air detection systems on commercial aircraft.
- Set up a proper medical protocol for dealing with passengers and crews exposed to contaminated air.
.......a slightly chemical, wet dog, vomit, dirty sock type smell in the cabin.
A pretty accurate description of many BAe146/Avro RJ85 cabins, in my opinion.
A pretty accurate description of many BAe146/Avro RJ85 cabins, in my opinion.
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.......a slightly chemical, wet dog, vomit, dirty sock type smell in the cabin....
Hmm, about like a Lockheed tri-motor, with one pack OTS, during the Hadj, in the rear cabin.
Phew....!
No wonder the CC complain.
Hmm, about like a Lockheed tri-motor, with one pack OTS, during the Hadj, in the rear cabin.
Phew....!
No wonder the CC complain.
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Danny and others ask for proof as if the Australian Senate concluding crews were getting sick is not enough but now all you have to do is light the fire, get a nice cup of tea and read these 2 new publications which clearly show passengers and crews are sick from exposure to contaminated air.
1. Air Quality in Airplane Cabins and Similar Enclosed Spaces. ISBN 3-540-25019-0
2. Proceedings of the BALPA Air safety and cabin Air Quality Aero Industry Conference. Held at Imperial Colleg, London, 20-21 April 2005. ISBN 0-7334-2282-9
Happy Christmas
Dolly
1. Air Quality in Airplane Cabins and Similar Enclosed Spaces. ISBN 3-540-25019-0
2. Proceedings of the BALPA Air safety and cabin Air Quality Aero Industry Conference. Held at Imperial Colleg, London, 20-21 April 2005. ISBN 0-7334-2282-9
Happy Christmas
Dolly