Good Lord Wino, you just can't help yourself, can you?

Now consider this - you say Airbus gets unfair subsidies. Well, I say the U.S. airlines get unfair subsidies of a different sort. The rest of the world's airlines have to compete with a bunch of bankrupt airlines that don't have to pay their bills. Tell us all, pray do, just how Chapter 11 is fair and isn't anti-competitive?

At least 2 of those airlines should be, that is not to say deserve to be, non-existant.

Glass houses and stones, old son.

Here's some photographs of Boeing's "wasteful logistics" (ie the same way that Airbus does things) in action, shipping 737 fuselages across the USA.

http://nwownrailfan.com/archives/features/0204camp.html

You wouldn't want to produce the whole of the A300/320/330/340/380 in Toulouse (or anywhere else) alone anyway. The local economy couldn't supply the huge number of specialist jobs and skills required.

Catchup,

I've not entered the A vs B debate before and I am not doing so now.

But your post was a wind-up, son. Nought more.

OK... so how many 747s have been ordered by US major pax carriers in, say, the past 10 years? Haven't heard that B are calling on the majors these days re the 747Adv, either.

Let's consider the other end of the scale. JetBlue seems to be doing rather better than any major (CO poss except) - with an all-A fleet.

Retract the cranium, mate.

@Taildragger67
 

It wasn't and it isn't my intention to start another A versus B debate.

Just wondering no American carrier (beside FedEx) ordered that ship.

Guess it's like WHBM wrote.


regards

WHBM
Wow - interesting link - sounds like a very fine tuned and economical logistics network. Real key is minimizing mode changes and intramode transfers. I'm willing to bet that Boeing is shipping those fuselages for a small percentage of what Airbus pays to ship their A380 wings. (Which are probably bigger and a more outsize shape than a 737 fuselage anyways so not really a fair comparison) Mind you they have had time to work this out and more importantly volume to work out the bugs and spread the fixed costs.

why would they even want to buy such a pink elephant? it hasnt even been PROVEN yet and i believe singapore are looking for some of their money back due to delays. with 787's, 777 Er etc, and embraeer 170 at the lower end why go to plastic airbus. it does make sense for fedex to buy them as they can stck more freight on board and not have to worry about pax terminals and gates etc and they would possible get the same range with more cargo. airbus is financed by the EU just like boeing is in the states, get over it it happens. you dont honestly believe that france pays for the airbus alone do you? it comes out of all your tax money and you have no say in the matter!! many so called national airlines in europe have been bailed out by their respective governments countless times. airlines in the states go bust too its only the legacy carriers that get bailed out, though i do think some need to be culled for the best interests of the industry. but can you honestly say if BA was in danger of going under the government wouldnt step in to save the nations flag carrier??? plus where on earth is the a380 going to operate out of. which english airports have been upgraded for it with gates and termianls? which english airline apart from virgin (shakey order too) have taken it up?? not british airways. willy walsh has some sense at least. all you boys with micky mouse easyjet need to get a life! how bout putting down your gaurdian newspaper in the cockpit and leaving your anti-american hysteria at home. beside in 10 yrs ryanair will knock easyjets socks off and you may all end up flying 737-800s! i for one am gietting sick and tired of reading english rahs spouting their xenophobia about anything that doesnt come from england followed by the EU, which they dont even like, at least we use euro here, and their anti-american attitude is just pathetic. leave that to the gardian tripe!
:yuk:

Looks like the author of Ryanair's SOP manual has surfaced at last :)

corklad
Ha ha ha ha! You are kidding, aren't you?! Ah, the future of aviation - I've got tears streaming from my eyes with laughter... If you're serious and you want the error of your ways pointing out, do get in touch, won't you.
You'd really rather fly on an Embraer than an Airbus, would you?!!
Hee hee hee!

Out of interest, whats wrong with Embraer's?:confused:

Corklad - you're looking for a website called airliners.net...

(sic)

Well, Heathrow and Gatwick, for starters. Here at LGW we're spending loads on fillets on runway turnoffs, extended runway shoulders etc ready in case we get a diversion in early next year. Heathrow have built a whole new facility on Terminal 3 and already done the runway/taxiway work, all ready to go. LGW will get the Terminal infrastructure next year ahead of possible 2007 schedules.
Not only that, but our RFFS is gearing up for it, too.

Can't speak for other English airports such as Manchester...

Cheers,

The Odd One

This is turning into yet another miserable post with underlying tones of political dissatisfaction.
"We hate Yanks" - should be a new forum for all the malcontents to post their xenophobic rants....

How childish - on both sides of the discussion. And, as usual, there are many takers of the wind-up lures.

Pathetic.:yuk:

Thanks for pointing that out to me "TheOddOne" useful information is always good on this site, and i humbly admit i was wrong to you about the state of on going upgrades, i stand corrected. Lets hope those airports get their upgrades ready before the locals protest about longer/extra runways. "panda-k-bear" you really are silly monkey arent you! you must go to sleep with a little airbus teedybear at night. embraer is a great company with great planes, even the royal air force uses embraer aircraft (tucano). are you now suggesting the RAF are idiots too?? do any of you guys actually read the scripts or just see stuff that isnt there?? i never said I wanted to fly the Embraer, though i wouldnt mind doing so. i've been in the BA ERj and enjoyed it, also US Airways Express Er170 and it was a really smooth ride. I'd never turn the oppertunity to fly a new plane whether it was made in brazil or russia, but hey thats just me. the point i was making was that all the hype over the A380 is just that hype...its not proven and its yet to fly for a single airline. and yes its all subsidised with EU tax money, therefore if the plane is flop it wont hurt airbus one little bit. however, it may turn out to be a really great plane, and id be the first to take my hat off to airbus if it does so. its not nearly as attractive as say the a340 in my opinion, but as i said earlier i certainly wouldnt turn down a shot flying it.

i was also trying to say that im totally sick and tired of reading anti american nonsense from the same people in every other thread these days. some how its become acceptable on pprune to bash americans at every oppertunity but you wouldnt dare go on in the same way about blacks or jews or muslims in the same manner. its really quite sad and pathetic and its amazing how the moderators let it slide.

Now on to the other part of the topic. ryaniar, however terrible they appear, is, i say, is, going to rule europe in the next 10yrs. they'll force squeesy-jet outta the market, mark my words. they are opening more routes and buying more planes and under-cutting all their competition year after year! just because you dont like someone doesn't mean they arent going to beat you. and as you obviously figured out i dont fly for ryanair or write their sop's (though i did find that comment funny i have to admit). they are ruthless and for the most part efficient and keep getting away with it, year after year. easyjet in terms of service are no better. ryanair are blunt and direct with it, take it or leave it is their attitude, where else will you get a one euro flight. easyjet's spotty faced teenagers just smile and shrugg their shoulders and pretend its not their fault. its like dealing with vicki pollards at their ticket counter "no but, yeah but"!! anyway, im sure there will be plenty of come back of how wrong i am. so go for it.

Catchup

OK sorry for my vitriol.

However I think there's an easy answer:

None of them can afford it. If they could, the last 747 order from an US passenger carrier would've been more recent than January 2001.

The US carriers are going after the point-to-point model - hence they are looking to replace their old point-to-point aircraft (767s).

It's simple money and passenger volume.

TD67

1) what's wrong with Embraer's - pay a visit to their factory and look at the construction methods. Have a look at their factory in the Gers in France, putting together fuselage sections and tell me that's not what the French would call "bricolage".

2) Why, corklad, do they need to extend the runways? Are you suggesting it's because of the A380? The A380 has take-off and landing performance as good or better than (depending on cricumstances) a 747-400 according to the data provided by Airbus to the airline I work for. If that's true, why are extensions needed?

3) Name the routes on which Ryanair and easyJet DIRECTLY compete? Now tell us all why that is.

4) As for attitudes, at least easyJet crew give off an attitude of actually enjoying their work. I've yet to experience that with Ryanair.

As for the comments about how "pretty" an aeroplane is, God help us. Why does that make an aircraft any better than any other? Because it's nice to look at?!

And if you bother to read anything about Boeing and Airbus you'll se they are as bad as each other so don't pretend otherwise.

Ok I went to EGTG yesterday expecting the A380 as I was told it was coming in at 1230. And all that came in was an A346! GRR!

Dan.

I always thought 'BA' meant 'Boeing Always'.

The original B747 was built for a competition for a large Military Freighter for the US Airforce. The competition was won by the C5 Galaxy. But the US airforce paid for the original B747.
I don't think RAF or any other European airforce pays for prototypes?

corklad

wind your neck in there feen. You're making yourself look like an awful gowl.

Comparing a 100 seat ERJ with a 555+ seat Airbus and referring to the 787 as better than a plastic bus when the 787 is being sold on its weight savings due composites is truly the stuff of rampant fanboy airliners.net stuff - the only difference seems to be that Danny doesn't force people to pay before posting and airliners does. Maybe he should take note.

The 787 is an excellent aircraft for the North American market which is leaning more towards point to point but the A380 is not necessarily tailored for that market except serving high density slot restricted markets like JFK-LHR/CDG/FRA. Can't put 2 787s on if you've only got one slot.

Embraer does produce some nice aircraft, Air Canada just got some, but remember they get massive taxpayer support proportional to company size from Brazil which makes it easier to kick Bombardier around. Embraer are only now (with the 195) coming to the point of competing with Airbus and Boeing products.

As for longer runways, A380 is quite well accommodated by existing 744 capable runways (see this week's flight on their FAA prompted testing on 45m wide strips) and likely less stressful on said runways than a 773ER (ask Air France).

The RAF may have selected Tucano (which I seem to recall was not a completely happy choice but you are free to ask those in Mil Forum) but they have also selected A330K over 767K if they ever get the Treasury to open the purse.

As for your points on FR - kinda off topic no? Also I think you should post your own picture before sounding off on spotty easyjetters.

My word, again i have to ask the question do people actually read the threads here or just insert mythical inferrals and references?? its truely amazing! Mark D, sorry boy, but if you read my original script PROPERLY you would see that i did not compare an embraer to an 555+ seat airbus (how stupid a remark would that be). what i said was its a great lower end model to compete against A319 or B737 etc. You also missed the point that it was not i who orriginally suggested that runway lengths needed to be increased, that was information passed on by "TheOddOne" and in fairness i think what HE was getting at was taxi ways and general runway infrastructure ugrading. i was talking about gates and terminals!! Anyway i was NEVER said the Embraer is better than an airbus or a boeing or a sabb (again READ the damn post)! I was trying to to say to all the airbus fun club to stop hyping up a plane that hasnt even flown yet for an airline nor proven itself and which in fact is running behind schedule. what the hell is your point about Embraer getting finance from brazil all about? its nonsensical! every state that manufactures planes supports it for political reason to keep jobs and tries its best to save it even during bankrupcy. its true for boeing or airbus or saab, i dare say its true for embraer and bombardier Crj and all the others out there. again think about what you are trying to say before you jump the gun, you only make youself look silly. As for the Raf using the Airbus...well duh! politics matey! they hung onto the tornado F3, the biggest heap of junk for years due to political pressure from BAe (ie all the jobs that would be lost and greedy awful yanks would come in and replace our eurofighter if we go down that road etc etc) when the RAf wanted to lease f16s and look at other alternatives till the typhoon came in. The tacano from what here works just fine so i dont know what your point its there. FR was off topic i agree but more a response to a challange in an earlier thread.

Panda k bear, as far as factory assembly goes. I cannot say that i have been to an embraer factory, or any other factory where the essamble large aircraft but if you say that you have and their methods are shoddy well I cannot disprove you but I dont quite believe it. sorry what you are suggesting is kinda slanderours too. why do you dislike ERJ so much? Do you equally dislike the CRJ and MD? Again i should point out im not a poster boy fan of the ERJ, I was using it as an EXAMPLE of a different aircraft to airbus or even boeing, I could have just said a BAE146. Again guys read carefully and make sure you understand whats being said not racing through material and coming up with all the wrong conclusions.
AS for looks...now come on mate you cannot honestly put you hand on your heart and say looks do not count. if you asked any pilot whether or not they'd like a go at flying say the concord or a fokker 50...well you get the point.

Again all i was saying was the A380 isnt there yet so i wouldnt get all wet about it at night, plus read flight international, good article about it out just now.

Finally i was making the point about all the anti-american hype on the message boards these days. interesting how all the come-back havent brought that up. perhaps they agree and have to attack in other ways, if only they could ready properly.

cheers :ok:

corkchild,
Do you know what the word "infer" means? Go into your school library and look it up and then tell me what this sentence: "with 787's, 777 Er etc, and embraeer 170 at the lower end why go to plastic airbus" infers. Where does that, anywhere, draw a comparison?

I think you mean slanderous, don't you? If so, look it up and look at what I wrote. Borrow the French dictionary as well and look up "bricolage".

I don't equally dislike CRJs or any other. It is only the disposable Barbie jet that I dislike. When you grow up, maybe you'd like to run evaluations of competing aircraft models, as I do for my company, to help make recommendations as to what to buy. That way you'd begin to learn things like this, along with other bits and pieces such as it really doesn't matter WHAT an aircraft looks like so long as it performs well, is economical, reliable and above all is safe.

I note with interest that after your Ryanair bleating you appear to be unable to tell me on which routes easy and Ryan DIRECTLY compete. Interesting. Maybe you could do that for your next school project? :p

panda k bear,

im sure you have a super duper job comparing various airplanes for your comapny, well done mate, your parents must be very proud indeed! good point well made, what-ever! maybe it is you who is confusing infer with perhaps...imply? again whats your point? you didnt understand the point or the sentence? i think your grasping at straws there, let it go. as far as typo's are concerned, well if i mess up the occasional word here or there please feel free to correct it with your french dictionary ...yawn! as for FR v EZ , who really cares, neither one of them are going for the a380. but if you love easy soooo much feel free to believe they are tops! now do you have anything interesting to say on topic (ie a380 relevant) or are you going to keep harping on about spelling mistakes and typos and your great job comparing aircraft for your company.:zzz: let me gues your the best of the best of the best at comparing aircraft in your particular company and therefore you know it all. well done!:ok:

A380 factory tours in october
 

A couple of weeks ago the Sunday Times Travel section had a small cutting -

"....the Airbus A380 assembley line will open to public during october. You can watch the largest commercial airliner in history, coming to life at it factory in Toulouse for just £6.50....."

I have since tried to get further information via search engines/airbus website etc. to no avail..

Can anyone help???

Before you make a complete idiot of yourself, note that the Tucano is a Shorts aircraft - built entirely in Belfast, which is significantly different from the Embraer upon which it is based.

I could pick apart all your posts, but quite frankly I cannot be bothered as there is so much nonsense within them, not to mention poor grammar and lack of paragraphs. Unsurprisingly, 'infer' is a word, and you simply appear ignorant with your childish post. The grammar is why nobody understood that phrase of yours at first glance - nobody here cares to lecture people on grammar, but when one cannot understand a post it is a different matter entirely. So in short, no, nobody can read much of what you are writing, so wind your neck in and post in an adult manner.

If you can't stand people's views here, then go away. Your only comments so far that have the slightest bearing on the aircraft's suitability for one airline or another are that you 'wouldnt turn down a shot flying it' (sp), and that a US Airways jet was 'a smooth ride'?

Quite frankly, I am curious as to how you have posted in one of your prior posts in August "i currently have around 2000hrs in the 737-200 and am thinking of coming back to europe for family reasons. i was speaking to a friend of..."; and follow up in September with "just completed my 737-200 type at FTI in denver colorado."...


Why have US passenger carriers not ordered the A380?

1) Extremely low profitability and poor balance sheets, preventing financing
2) Point-to-point services do not support it at densities flown
3) Poor infrastructure in the US for the aircraft at major airfields, such as LAX - one of a few reasons why Virgin is no longer the first to fly the aircraft and chose a later delivery.

It has very little to do with startup loans, which though given by governments to Airbus with lower rates, are indeed repayable. Neither does it have anything to do with politics as US airlines have operated Airbuses from A300 upwards.

corklad

I'll go through the rest of your diatribe if I can be bothered sometime, but suffice to say the 330K's ability to do BZN-MPA nonstop and the number of standard containers it would bring along and the fact that they wouldn't be relieving BA of some used 763ERs as would have happened in the old days has a lot more to do with it than "politics". Search mil forum (username BEagle) if you want more.

Ask the Australians, who because they won't be messing around with a stupid PFI will be taking delivery of their 330Ks before RAF despite beginning their process after them.

By the way, after re-heat's post I couldn't help myself - do you own a time machine of some sort?

2/Aug/05
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...02#post2016902
23/Aug/05
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...23#post2110723

Right, point by point then, ignoring spelling and grammar because clearly it doesn’t matter to you whether people can understand what you write or not…


“im sure you have a super duper job comparing various airplanes for your comapny,”

Yes, I do. It’s fun. I see the manufacturers at least weekly. Do you think that qualifies me to comment on why airlines buy any particular aircraft? Or do you still believe they are bought because of the way they look? If so, I'll take a dozen DC-3s, please.

“well done mate,”

Very kind of you, thank you.

“your parents must be very proud indeed!”

I’m sure they are.

“good point well made, what-ever!”

Gibberish

“maybe it is you who is confusing infer with perhaps...imply?”

No, I don’t think so.

“again whats your point?”

My point is to know what the sentence that I quoted in my previous post was supposed to infer – what were you trying to suggest? Plastic Airbus? A320 is about 15% composite. 787 will be about 50% composite. Which one is the plastic aeroplane?

“you didnt understand the point or the sentence?”

No, I was emphasising that you are contradicting yourself. You said: “what i said was its a great lower end model to compete against A319 or B737 etc.” I emphasised that that is not what you inferred – you were inferring that the “plastic Airbus” is inferior to the 737s and the Embraers in your previous post.

“i think your grasping at straws there, let it go. as far as typo's are concerned, well if i mess up the occasional word here or there please feel free to correct it”

Thanks, I probably will. I won’t bother for now though – it’d take too long.

“with your french dictionary ...yawn!”

I mentioned that in my opinion the Embraers were a bit of “bricolage”. That’s a French word. You accused me of slandering them. I still suggest that you look up “bricolage” to understand what I was saying and then you will see there’s no slander involved.

“as for FR v EZ , who really cares, neither one of them are going for the a380.”
I couldn’t really care less. YOU were the one who brought up FR and their slaughtering of EZ, not me.

“but if you love easy soooo much feel free to believe they are tops!”
They beat FR hands down in terms of service – and they go to places I want to go to, not somewhere 50 miles away.


“now do you have anything interesting to say on topic (ie a380 relevant)”
I could, but I think I’ll refrain from discussing it with you for the time being. Re-heat makes the main salient points anyway. Your “no airports can handle it” and “runways are too short for it” comments show an astounding lack of knowledge on the subject anyway, so what would be the point discussing it with you?

“or are you going to keep harping on about spelling mistakes and typos”
Learn to write and discuss properly and there’ll be no need to.

“and your great job comparing aircraft for your company”
Well it lets me be qualified to discuss aircraft comparisons objectively, doesn’t it?

“let me gues your the best of the best of the best at comparing aircraft in your particular company and therefore you know it all.”
I’m so happy that you think so. How many people do you think run aircraft evaluations for airlines or leasing companies or banks, by the way? Do you imagine it’s hundreds or only a handful?

“well done! ”
Thank you. I still await your answer to my questions, point by point, instead of waving your hand "whatever!"

U.S. carriers are in no position to be ordering the A380 – or any aircraft – at the moment. Take a look how many orders there have been from the U.S. legacy carriers. Only 2 ordered the 747-400 as a passenger aircraft and both of them are in Chapter 11. The A380 will introduce a quantum leap drop in operating costs for the airlines – extremely important with fuel today at over $2.00 per USG. Those airlines with intercontinental hub to hub strategies will order it in droves (hence 159 orders for a machine not yet in service – not bad for an aircraft costing close to $300 million). The 787 will do the same but will not be able to do it at slot constrained airports. Thus it’ll offer the same drop but to secondary markets. Yes it will get more orders than the A380 but it’s less than half the price, about 1/3 the size and so an airline will need to order more of them – it is only logical.

Taxiway run the Toulouse factory tours. However, they do not specify whether the A380 build line is included in the tour on the site. Your best bet is propbably to contact Taxiway.

flyingbee

Seems nobody picked up Leighton's post about the US Government paying for the prototype 747. Absolute rubbish, I'm afraid.

Boeing submitted design proposals for the C-5 competition with an aircraft that looked very similar to the Galaxy but without the T-Tail. Boeing lost to Douglas at the DESIGN stage.

Juan Trippe of Pan Am then approached Boeing with the suggestion of taking some of the studies they had done for the C-5 and come up with a large passenger aircraft. The result was the 747. But Boeing self financed the prototype and, when problems delayed early deliveries, almost drove Boeing under.

Sorry to try and put some common sense (and really off topic at that!) into a post full of the complete rubbish coming out of southern Ireland at the moment. And this post is probably much more boring to read than corklad's rantings.

But to come back on topic - let's see. Airports becoming increasingly congested, pax numbers rising. Therefore, like it or not, larger aircraft are required - hence the A380 for major trunk routes.

Umm, Lockheed, I think, groundloop. There is a point that some contribution was made by the U.S. governement. Without it there would have been no aircraft for Juan to start from, if you catch my drift. But yes, Boeing did bet the house on the 747 and it paid off. Top marks for that!

And actually no, it isn't boring. I was wondering if I was losing my marbles and the world had gone mad. Thank you for some common sense.

Corklad,

As far as I can see in this Topic it seems you have a chip on your shoulder against the British, not British v American

Myself I love the American people, I like Boeing planes, and I like airbus planes. Granted they both get help so let them play. It’s only going to benefit us as they will constantly try to outdo each other with better more reliable more stylish planes. I say great.

Who cares who orders what!!!


Oh and that bit about Ryanair made me laugh :ok:

Oops, of course it was Lockheed!

Probably laughing at corklad too much my brain threw a wobbly!

This thread should be on prescription!

There i was sitting down to my computer with a splitting headache not relishing the prospect of several more hours of drudgery at the office when i happened across this thread.

20 mins later, headache gone and tears of laughter streaming down my face I am rejuvenated!

Corklad, please please stick your head back out of the foxhole :p

A380 to visit FRA
 

Saturday 29th will be the second time the A380 visits Germany. Some newspapers and the local spotter community (links at the end of this post) reported that the A380 will arrive at 09.00 am for tests regarding dispatch and the "overall airport capability".

The RMAS (Rhein-Main-Aviation-Society) website says that position E9 is reserved for the big Bus, and that the visitor terraces may be closed due to the limited capacity.

Some links (sorry, couldn't find links in english, so german language only):

Frankfurter Rundschau
RMAS

Also set to visit Singapore, K.L., Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne and Dubai during November according to Airbus.

It'll be nice to see it in other parts of the world and give punters a chance to see it.

Think I saw one North of Toulouse at FL360 yesterday afternoon - the controller didn't know as he wasn't responsible for that area though.

Has it been to the UK at all yet?

I wanna see that big girl at Heathrow!

Emirates A380 arrival
 

Hi all,
When does EK expect to take delivery of its first 380? Anyone know?

Delivery
 

Sometime in Spring 2007. It was supposed to be October 2006, shortly after Qantas, but then the 6 month delay surfaced.

2nd A380 takes to the skies
 

The 2nd 380 took off this morning from Toulouse, then flew south west to do some testing :)

nice to hear that all is well!



cheers

scott waterworth

.....but did it come back?

you're a funny guy Halfnut

:p