Where are the good old days ?
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White Knight, with all due respect but I don,t want to be the best paid hobbiest, I just like to be a fair paid proffessional!! And not only fair paid, also fair treated, and that's where very often the problem lies.
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I agree with most of the postings. Flying was not my first career, that didn't pay well enough! Although I enjoy the bit between shutting the doors to arriving at the other end, its all the other stuff that drives me nuts. I cannot imagine doing this job for another 30 years and my plan is not too.
The things that get my goat about security:-
They search me for anything "dangerous". They ignore my can opener and never search my shoes. But does it even matter? As soon as I get to the aircraft I have an axe within arms reach.
When returning from a flight, trying to get back to landside, with an entire crew in uniform, I get awkward security staff wanting to see my ID pass before they will open the door. Why? I am already airside, its very very obvious that I am crew off a flight, and I am only trying to get back into a building that allows anyone into it from landside. I don't understand.
Rant over.
The things that get my goat about security:-
They search me for anything "dangerous". They ignore my can opener and never search my shoes. But does it even matter? As soon as I get to the aircraft I have an axe within arms reach.
When returning from a flight, trying to get back to landside, with an entire crew in uniform, I get awkward security staff wanting to see my ID pass before they will open the door. Why? I am already airside, its very very obvious that I am crew off a flight, and I am only trying to get back into a building that allows anyone into it from landside. I don't understand.
Rant over.
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The things that get my goat about security:-
They search me for anything "dangerous". They ignore my can opener and never search my shoes. But does it even matter? As soon as I get to the aircraft I have an axe within arms reach.
When returning from a flight, trying to get back to landside, with an entire crew in uniform, I get awkward security staff wanting to see my ID pass before they will open the door. Why? I am already airside, its very very obvious that I am crew off a flight, and I am only trying to get back into a building that allows anyone into it from landside. I don't understand.
They search me for anything "dangerous". They ignore my can opener and never search my shoes. But does it even matter? As soon as I get to the aircraft I have an axe within arms reach.
When returning from a flight, trying to get back to landside, with an entire crew in uniform, I get awkward security staff wanting to see my ID pass before they will open the door. Why? I am already airside, its very very obvious that I am crew off a flight, and I am only trying to get back into a building that allows anyone into it from landside. I don't understand.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to pilfer "dangerous" items like can openers etc., ostensibly to prevent you from taking over the plane, when that's exactly what you will do not minutes after they take them!
WE allow them to continue the show......
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Hey Girl, you ought to write a BOOK!
In fact, there are enough examples in this thread that some talented journalist (I think there are about 7 of them, somewhere) shoul use them as a start for a book.
In fact, there are enough examples in this thread that some talented journalist (I think there are about 7 of them, somewhere) shoul use them as a start for a book.
Just back from FRA tonight..........
Tried to use the LH 'rapid check-in' machine - it didn't work. Neither did 2 others. The women in charge finally did things manually. Then the security check - everything metallic into the bin, walk through the metal detector then pick everything up again. Show passport to unsmiling cop at passport control. Do some shopping, show boarding card to assistant. Walk down towards gate, on the way get asked by some fat woman with dreadlocks and no uniform to show boarding card again. A few feet further on, another security check - everything metallic into the bin, walk through the metal detector then pick everything up again. This time get frisked as well. Then on to boarding gate - show effing passport and boarding card yet again. On to LH A319, across to LHR. Passport again - then wait ages for luggage in that pig sty called LHR T2. Get home to find an arrogant note inside my luggage from the Bundesgrenzschutzamt stating that they had opened my luggage without my knowledge and that it was 'checked manually by airport security agents authorized by the German government'.............
What the f*ck is going on?
Tried to use the LH 'rapid check-in' machine - it didn't work. Neither did 2 others. The women in charge finally did things manually. Then the security check - everything metallic into the bin, walk through the metal detector then pick everything up again. Show passport to unsmiling cop at passport control. Do some shopping, show boarding card to assistant. Walk down towards gate, on the way get asked by some fat woman with dreadlocks and no uniform to show boarding card again. A few feet further on, another security check - everything metallic into the bin, walk through the metal detector then pick everything up again. This time get frisked as well. Then on to boarding gate - show effing passport and boarding card yet again. On to LH A319, across to LHR. Passport again - then wait ages for luggage in that pig sty called LHR T2. Get home to find an arrogant note inside my luggage from the Bundesgrenzschutzamt stating that they had opened my luggage without my knowledge and that it was 'checked manually by airport security agents authorized by the German government'.............
What the f*ck is going on?
The good old days might have begun to fade when the flight attendants here were no longer required to be young, good-looking, single females.
As for some of the large, impersonal corporations: some of the people who fly a desk at the airlines are probably jealous of the limited authority (and sometimes, the days off in a row) which many pilots still have, and by increasing the number of company policies, procedures and limitations along with an attempt to enforce more regimentation, they attempt to:
1) place more liability on the flightcrews.
2) try to fly our planes from their desks/cubicles.
And by very liberally using the phrase "force majeur" and "etc" as loopholes, they can now disregard almost anything in a labor contract-even when the latest pilot furlough notices here are to take place NEXT winter! There must be a good bit of shared legal "expertise" over here between the various airlines, in order to punch large holes in the "scope" agreements. The ATA is the powerful industry lobby group which would love to throw away the Railway Labor Act, which governs the US airline negotiation (+mediation and arbitration) procedures.
What is this process called in Britain and other places?
As for some of the large, impersonal corporations: some of the people who fly a desk at the airlines are probably jealous of the limited authority (and sometimes, the days off in a row) which many pilots still have, and by increasing the number of company policies, procedures and limitations along with an attempt to enforce more regimentation, they attempt to:
1) place more liability on the flightcrews.
2) try to fly our planes from their desks/cubicles.
And by very liberally using the phrase "force majeur" and "etc" as loopholes, they can now disregard almost anything in a labor contract-even when the latest pilot furlough notices here are to take place NEXT winter! There must be a good bit of shared legal "expertise" over here between the various airlines, in order to punch large holes in the "scope" agreements. The ATA is the powerful industry lobby group which would love to throw away the Railway Labor Act, which governs the US airline negotiation (+mediation and arbitration) procedures.
What is this process called in Britain and other places?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 22nd Jun 2003 at 13:42.
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This topic struck a deep chord with all the aviating guys at the Orval bar, with many a tale (tail?) about days of yore. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it is a well-known phenomenon that we all look back through rose tinted glasses.
This could be a very long posting, however, the bottom line is; the only pilots who didn't want to retire were those with no pension expectations!
Be Happy
This could be a very long posting, however, the bottom line is; the only pilots who didn't want to retire were those with no pension expectations!
Be Happy
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I can only agree with the vast majority of posts on this subject.The job has gone downhill so far you wouldn't be able to see your sorry rear end with a very large telescope from where I started out. 2 hours max out from home 1 hour turnround 2 hours max back and in the Pub with a jumper over your uniform shirt for a few beers before lunch time closing was the norm for an early start,just take your epaulettes off before diving into Pinchins Parlour in the evening.More than 2 sectors a day? you cannot be serious,man!
As for 'security'-- I suspect those of you who quite rightly moan about this farce miss the point. We have to be seen by the punters as often as possible taking this flak as it 'sends a message' that everything possible is being done to keep them safe.The comments about A level failed security operatives is well taken. The trouble is the lunatics really have taken over every ward of the assylum and those of us of a certain age have probably helped them by promising ourselves that we'ld be Mr. NiceGuy when we got a command instead of the real b******* we flew with in our youth. They were a disaster area in every respect except they were respected,to their faces at least,and a lot followed on from that in terms of the jobs status and the way we were treated. In the odd idle moment I often wonder how some of the wartime members would take to the way the 'other ranks' behave towards us now.
Hope this is contentious enough to keep the string going a while longer.
As for 'security'-- I suspect those of you who quite rightly moan about this farce miss the point. We have to be seen by the punters as often as possible taking this flak as it 'sends a message' that everything possible is being done to keep them safe.The comments about A level failed security operatives is well taken. The trouble is the lunatics really have taken over every ward of the assylum and those of us of a certain age have probably helped them by promising ourselves that we'ld be Mr. NiceGuy when we got a command instead of the real b******* we flew with in our youth. They were a disaster area in every respect except they were respected,to their faces at least,and a lot followed on from that in terms of the jobs status and the way we were treated. In the odd idle moment I often wonder how some of the wartime members would take to the way the 'other ranks' behave towards us now.
Hope this is contentious enough to keep the string going a while longer.
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Non origanal quote
The pilots in SIA are working like camels and live like horses. Some of the luckier ones in lets say Cathay work like horses and live like human beings, but only the choosen few in some of the bigger American carriers work like human beings and live like Kings!! And although the problems with Sars in Asia seems to get better, the industrial relations in SIA get worse by the day. Dark and gloomy skies ahead.
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Good Old Days
Where I work, when I first joined it was an abysymal place to work , morale was shattered after Lorenzo's
trip through Bankruptcy court and overnight abrogation of all union contracts, with pilots being told to like it or lump it, hundreds went out on strike, some to return after many years, many never did and were replaced by opportunists. scabs what ever you want to call them.
Most excess cash flow was redirected back into Lorenzo's pockets, or further wasted by his disastrous attempt to acquire Eastern, which if it had been done correctly and managed well would have resulted in a formidable airline. The only tactic's he knew however were slash and burn, unfortunately their mechanics tried to face him down and lost.
So, after destroying thousands more livelihoods he went back to
his 'running' of our airline in which he had no interest, a creature of the 80's and fan of the leveraged buyout <the movie 'Wall Street' was largely based on him and his croney Michael Milken>
We limped along through another bankruptcy, our actual operation was embarassing. I was a 727 Engineer at the time and spent most of my preflight working out the procedures, and legality of the copious amount of MELS. 70% of the aircraft I flew had at least one Generator a fuel tank guage and a pack fan
inoperative as well as numerous other defects.
A couple of incidents come to mind, arriving at the gate in the late
80's In July in Houston I was the first to board the aircraft and walked into an absolute oven the cabin temperature was over 150
degrees although unusually the APU was operative, both pack fans were inoperative allowing pack use only once airborne,
Ater requesting that preconditioned air be connected I was told there were no servicable A/C carts available . That was easy to believe, amazingly the Captain <one of our heroic strike breakers> accepted the aircraft in that condition and we set off to
Los-Angeles, I do remember never being in that hot an aircraft before or after, and that the cabin temp guage went off the upper limits of its range.
It took us two thirds of the flight to cool the cabin down, crew and passengers were in a miserable state, I certainly would have got off if I had a choice.
In the other incident the Aircraft we were given that day had one generator inoperative <and had been so for three weeks> in the 727 of course the APU cannot be used in flight eliminating that as an electrical back-up.
Also for all its complexity the electrical system was the the aircrafts big weakness, requiring significant
and immediate manual downloads with the loss of one generator
and massive downloads with the loss of two.
The inevitable happened of course and halfway to our destination
we lost a second generator, we were fortunate in that we had a severe clear day all the way to our destination and were able to
continue and land.
My only constant thoughts at the time were to get some right seat experience and get the hell out. After four years in the rear seat I
upgraded to First Officer on the 727, this was certainly a lot better
at least I was flying again and I loved that aircraft, it was a real thrill to fly, and best of all that was all I had to do, the Engineer doing 90% of the work.
I slowly accumulated the experience I needed to move on, remarkably though the airline started a slow but gradual improvement itself, mainly due to new, competent management,
aditionally in large part though, due to the sacrifices of the Employees. In fact things improved so much that I shelved my plan to go elsewhere, turning down an opportunity to work for an Airline I had pursued aggressively.
New aircraft started to arrive and I started to move up the seniority list, after another three years in the right seat of the 727,
I switched to the MD80 for better seniority for three more, then moved to the 757, and the 767 as they arrived, which i'm flying now.
In July of 2001 I was awarded a captains seat on the 737, finally
after fourteen years I was giong to upgrade, as there had been no expansion, numerous furloughs and minimal expansion this was how long it took, things really seemed to be going well.
I was asleep in my morning nap in Madrid on September 11th 2001
when the phone rang, the Captain told me of the incredible news
and I turned the TV on in time to see the second aircraft hit.
Over the next few days stuck in Madrid we tried to absorb the second shock of massive imminent furloughs, of course that long awaited Captains training class was immediately cancelled.
All very depressing, but on the other side of the coin I was senior enough to not be too adversely affected, and was able to stay on
the 76 albeit further down the list.
Probably just as damaging to myself and my peers was our signing off on a recent contract that, although increased salaries significantly, also allowed management to bring in unlimited numbers of regional jets, although I did not vote personally for the contract
the large number of strikebreakers still in the airline swung the vote in their particular base to an overall approval and it was voted in.
Despite managements assurances to the contrary they immediately started to replace a sizable portion of our flying with these aircraft, drastically reducing our upward progress as mainline aircraft went to the desert.
So good old days? I don't know, I come from an entirely civilian background and was fortunate enough to be hired by a major airline at 24 years old although I did work very hard to do that
there was never much merriment in the old days here but as time moved on and we moved into this politically correct world, contrary to many other peoples experiences our 'workplace improved dramatically' with our arlines improving operation.
Without being insensitive to our extremely unfortunate pilots currently on furlough, morale is on the upswing again as there does appear to be light at the end of the tunnel and we are one of the best managed American Airlines.
I still make a good living I hope that left seat comes back before too long, but I enjoy flying the 767 very much and have seen a good portion of the world in it, flying as far south as Rio De Janeiro
west to Tokyo and East to Rome, so its always interesting, although very tiring to do year after year, the occasional 757 domestic trip is a welcome break.
Having just turned 40 I have a few years left if my health holds up
to upgrade, and I hope they don't extend the retirement age.
I miss the older aircraft as well and they were more exciting and at least different in many ways. But I wouldn't want to go back to them now
trip through Bankruptcy court and overnight abrogation of all union contracts, with pilots being told to like it or lump it, hundreds went out on strike, some to return after many years, many never did and were replaced by opportunists. scabs what ever you want to call them.
Most excess cash flow was redirected back into Lorenzo's pockets, or further wasted by his disastrous attempt to acquire Eastern, which if it had been done correctly and managed well would have resulted in a formidable airline. The only tactic's he knew however were slash and burn, unfortunately their mechanics tried to face him down and lost.
So, after destroying thousands more livelihoods he went back to
his 'running' of our airline in which he had no interest, a creature of the 80's and fan of the leveraged buyout <the movie 'Wall Street' was largely based on him and his croney Michael Milken>
We limped along through another bankruptcy, our actual operation was embarassing. I was a 727 Engineer at the time and spent most of my preflight working out the procedures, and legality of the copious amount of MELS. 70% of the aircraft I flew had at least one Generator a fuel tank guage and a pack fan
inoperative as well as numerous other defects.
A couple of incidents come to mind, arriving at the gate in the late
80's In July in Houston I was the first to board the aircraft and walked into an absolute oven the cabin temperature was over 150
degrees although unusually the APU was operative, both pack fans were inoperative allowing pack use only once airborne,
Ater requesting that preconditioned air be connected I was told there were no servicable A/C carts available . That was easy to believe, amazingly the Captain <one of our heroic strike breakers> accepted the aircraft in that condition and we set off to
Los-Angeles, I do remember never being in that hot an aircraft before or after, and that the cabin temp guage went off the upper limits of its range.
It took us two thirds of the flight to cool the cabin down, crew and passengers were in a miserable state, I certainly would have got off if I had a choice.
In the other incident the Aircraft we were given that day had one generator inoperative <and had been so for three weeks> in the 727 of course the APU cannot be used in flight eliminating that as an electrical back-up.
Also for all its complexity the electrical system was the the aircrafts big weakness, requiring significant
and immediate manual downloads with the loss of one generator
and massive downloads with the loss of two.
The inevitable happened of course and halfway to our destination
we lost a second generator, we were fortunate in that we had a severe clear day all the way to our destination and were able to
continue and land.
My only constant thoughts at the time were to get some right seat experience and get the hell out. After four years in the rear seat I
upgraded to First Officer on the 727, this was certainly a lot better
at least I was flying again and I loved that aircraft, it was a real thrill to fly, and best of all that was all I had to do, the Engineer doing 90% of the work.
I slowly accumulated the experience I needed to move on, remarkably though the airline started a slow but gradual improvement itself, mainly due to new, competent management,
aditionally in large part though, due to the sacrifices of the Employees. In fact things improved so much that I shelved my plan to go elsewhere, turning down an opportunity to work for an Airline I had pursued aggressively.
New aircraft started to arrive and I started to move up the seniority list, after another three years in the right seat of the 727,
I switched to the MD80 for better seniority for three more, then moved to the 757, and the 767 as they arrived, which i'm flying now.
In July of 2001 I was awarded a captains seat on the 737, finally
after fourteen years I was giong to upgrade, as there had been no expansion, numerous furloughs and minimal expansion this was how long it took, things really seemed to be going well.
I was asleep in my morning nap in Madrid on September 11th 2001
when the phone rang, the Captain told me of the incredible news
and I turned the TV on in time to see the second aircraft hit.
Over the next few days stuck in Madrid we tried to absorb the second shock of massive imminent furloughs, of course that long awaited Captains training class was immediately cancelled.
All very depressing, but on the other side of the coin I was senior enough to not be too adversely affected, and was able to stay on
the 76 albeit further down the list.
Probably just as damaging to myself and my peers was our signing off on a recent contract that, although increased salaries significantly, also allowed management to bring in unlimited numbers of regional jets, although I did not vote personally for the contract
the large number of strikebreakers still in the airline swung the vote in their particular base to an overall approval and it was voted in.
Despite managements assurances to the contrary they immediately started to replace a sizable portion of our flying with these aircraft, drastically reducing our upward progress as mainline aircraft went to the desert.
So good old days? I don't know, I come from an entirely civilian background and was fortunate enough to be hired by a major airline at 24 years old although I did work very hard to do that
there was never much merriment in the old days here but as time moved on and we moved into this politically correct world, contrary to many other peoples experiences our 'workplace improved dramatically' with our arlines improving operation.
Without being insensitive to our extremely unfortunate pilots currently on furlough, morale is on the upswing again as there does appear to be light at the end of the tunnel and we are one of the best managed American Airlines.
I still make a good living I hope that left seat comes back before too long, but I enjoy flying the 767 very much and have seen a good portion of the world in it, flying as far south as Rio De Janeiro
west to Tokyo and East to Rome, so its always interesting, although very tiring to do year after year, the occasional 757 domestic trip is a welcome break.
Having just turned 40 I have a few years left if my health holds up
to upgrade, and I hope they don't extend the retirement age.
I miss the older aircraft as well and they were more exciting and at least different in many ways. But I wouldn't want to go back to them now
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I, for one, as a relative newcomer to this industry, would obviously be an optimist. Afterall, this is my lifelong dream, and not to mention that I left behind a very unsatisfactory career (which for some would also constitute a dream job), I have but no option to continue.
However, after choosing to leave my prior career, I realized that, perhaps, I've been misleading myself in terms of what I should expect from life. At the outset of that career, it was quite nice, and I was happy to work 80 hours a week, and drink for six. But then, it started to take it's toll on me, and with only two weeks of vacation per year (which I could never take anyway), I started becoming disillusioned and bitter. And this was after three promotions in less than half a decade.
It was quite disappointing to think that dreams like that can fade so easily, wane in the distance, because reality is never like what we envisioned it to be. Thought it was going to be glamourous, fantastic, and big money down the coffers. The truth, as a matter of fact, wasn't far off. At least 10% of the time anyway.
But then, I also came to the realization that, in this world, there is no such thing as a dream job anymore, and that almost every job has its compromises. Speaking to my friends, some of whom have been laid off since the tech bust, and others who work in menial accountancy and secretarial jobs, it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot out there. A close friend of mine who works at the monolith that is IBM is quite content with his job, but that's because he knows if he tried to quit, he would probably spend the rest of his life on the welfare line. For the most part, everyone prefers to be a rancher somewhere in Texas, or a ski bunny at Val d'Isere. As I look at my meagre savings in my pockets, those things are merely the pipe dreams of my own imagination.
So when it came to aviation, I look at all my junior colleagues, and revel in their enthusiasm. Afterall, flying an airplane sure beats sitting in a friggin office 12 hours a day.
However, after choosing to leave my prior career, I realized that, perhaps, I've been misleading myself in terms of what I should expect from life. At the outset of that career, it was quite nice, and I was happy to work 80 hours a week, and drink for six. But then, it started to take it's toll on me, and with only two weeks of vacation per year (which I could never take anyway), I started becoming disillusioned and bitter. And this was after three promotions in less than half a decade.
It was quite disappointing to think that dreams like that can fade so easily, wane in the distance, because reality is never like what we envisioned it to be. Thought it was going to be glamourous, fantastic, and big money down the coffers. The truth, as a matter of fact, wasn't far off. At least 10% of the time anyway.
But then, I also came to the realization that, in this world, there is no such thing as a dream job anymore, and that almost every job has its compromises. Speaking to my friends, some of whom have been laid off since the tech bust, and others who work in menial accountancy and secretarial jobs, it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot out there. A close friend of mine who works at the monolith that is IBM is quite content with his job, but that's because he knows if he tried to quit, he would probably spend the rest of his life on the welfare line. For the most part, everyone prefers to be a rancher somewhere in Texas, or a ski bunny at Val d'Isere. As I look at my meagre savings in my pockets, those things are merely the pipe dreams of my own imagination.
So when it came to aviation, I look at all my junior colleagues, and revel in their enthusiasm. Afterall, flying an airplane sure beats sitting in a friggin office 12 hours a day.
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Trying to remain positive about aviation even for just an enthusiast like myself is a kind of duty in way - look on the bright side etc. However, you can tell things are now really going off the wall. Yesterday, we were seeing a relation off at Cork on her way back to Stansted and whilst hanging around a U. S. Navy Super King Air arrived. Very nice, says I to myself, very smart. Then we accompany our elderly relation to the security point at the boarding area. Hugs and kisses etc. The flight crew from the U. S. Navy Super King Air arrive at the same security point with cold plates bought from the restaurant and begin conversation with the young security official about what is next etc. Security official defers to a higher order so a real Airport Policeman dressed in what was like the Aer Lingus captain's uniform of about twenty years ago and the four gold bars to boot(!) arrives on scene and has quick words with the U. S. Navy crew and quickly accompanies them around the small queue of passengers to the scanner. Now, I lost sight momentarily of the goings on but then the next thing I see is colleagues of the younger security official ably frisking the U. S. Navy guys before allowing them to continue! I may be off the mark but as a military aircraft the Super King Air parked outside on the Cork ramp may well have some side arms at least stowed away for the crew's protection? The real gods of aviation now are airport security officers - some of them are even wearing Ray Bans! Loony, loony times all right.
