Where are the good old days ?
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"Rationalise the relationship that you have with your employer and with flying in general..."
Well said Capt.U/P.
The scales are tipping further away from us, while all loyalty dissappears corespondingly.
...and no NSF, I too, also love flying but am finding the whole job less joyfull, with all these "extras"/complications, either company or Industry induced.
Well said Capt.U/P.
The scales are tipping further away from us, while all loyalty dissappears corespondingly.
...and no NSF, I too, also love flying but am finding the whole job less joyfull, with all these "extras"/complications, either company or Industry induced.
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Most of the replies to this topic could have come straight from my heart, it's sad to realise a young boys dream has turned into a captains nightmare. Well, may be this is a bit too much but it comes close! I have seen company's, bit by bit nibble off all the goodies of this job. "You are not supposed to have fun,. . . it's to EXPENSIVE"! I also remember the nice time in Bangor (late 80's). Lobster till you die for $7,50 at Captain Nicks. Great hosties ( I was single then) Good allowance. Skiing at Sugar Loaf. A bathtub full of drinks and ice in room #132 at the Holiday Inn. A good time untill you couldn't handle it anymore. Those days are gone, over, done. Maybe I'm getting old, maybe it is the beancounters. Although,. . . I think it's the latter I am arrogant enough to think.
Greetings, and to great times,
GP76.
Greetings, and to great times,
GP76.
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Interesting thread.
I think a lot of this depends on when you started flying. Many of us who only started in the last few years know no different. We have all heard the stories of the good old days, but that appears to apply in all walks of life, and with all generations. My father in law often tells of horrendous conditions when he was my age, but then 10 mins later he'll go on about how things were ''better in the old days..and how the govt. has ruined this country''
Working for a regional operator we dont get the same perks. (hell we dont even get crew food or breakfast in hotels!)
I've been flying for 15 yrs, with airlines for 5yrs with 3 in the LHS. Times have changed, and I imagine more changes on the horizon, but, I still love flying and look forward to going to work.
I think a lot of this depends on when you started flying. Many of us who only started in the last few years know no different. We have all heard the stories of the good old days, but that appears to apply in all walks of life, and with all generations. My father in law often tells of horrendous conditions when he was my age, but then 10 mins later he'll go on about how things were ''better in the old days..and how the govt. has ruined this country''
Working for a regional operator we dont get the same perks. (hell we dont even get crew food or breakfast in hotels!)
I've been flying for 15 yrs, with airlines for 5yrs with 3 in the LHS. Times have changed, and I imagine more changes on the horizon, but, I still love flying and look forward to going to work.
Sad to say it but I think that, to a greater extent, some of the pilot fraternity have only got themselves to blame for many of these changes.
There are some pilots who if the management said "Fly aeroplanes upside-down today" would meekly obey their order! The "Martini" set still exist, you know, "anytime, any place..."
If all flight deck crew were part of an organisation (dare I even mention the word union!) which had some muscle and bargaining power then our lives would still have just a few perks.
It is obviously not feasible to return to the heady days of yesteryear but we have to get the message across to the bean-counters, the travelling public and the share-holders that pilots still have an enormous responsibility despite the fact that it's all "automatic" these days!
There are some pilots who if the management said "Fly aeroplanes upside-down today" would meekly obey their order! The "Martini" set still exist, you know, "anytime, any place..."
If all flight deck crew were part of an organisation (dare I even mention the word union!) which had some muscle and bargaining power then our lives would still have just a few perks.
It is obviously not feasible to return to the heady days of yesteryear but we have to get the message across to the bean-counters, the travelling public and the share-holders that pilots still have an enormous responsibility despite the fact that it's all "automatic" these days!
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Nice sentiments Fireflybob, but way off the mark, imho.
The changes in the industry are nothing to do with unions or pilot resolve;they are to do with changing market conditions and economics.
You have two choices, as a pilot nowadays; you accept the change with a positive attitude or they drag you 'kicking and screaming' into the new era.
You can stand alone and fight, if that's your wish, but you'll get trampled on by the ensuing mass. Don't wait too long for your union or 'enssembled mass of fellows' to back you up. Look over your shoulder and there will be nobody standing behind you.
Sad but true!
The changes in the industry are nothing to do with unions or pilot resolve;they are to do with changing market conditions and economics.
You have two choices, as a pilot nowadays; you accept the change with a positive attitude or they drag you 'kicking and screaming' into the new era.
You can stand alone and fight, if that's your wish, but you'll get trampled on by the ensuing mass. Don't wait too long for your union or 'enssembled mass of fellows' to back you up. Look over your shoulder and there will be nobody standing behind you.
Sad but true!
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corporate
Please, please please, do not tell any one but in corporate it has not changed.......I would suspect that if the B O Fa$ts that are moving over to NetJet, to extend their flying lives are to be beleived then there is life after death.......Met two such gentlmen last month and they were like pigs in sh$t......Wished they had retired !!!!! earlier. Too old for LHS but perfect for the bar stool.......great guys.......
So in conclusion please remember that it is always greener on the other side....
So in conclusion please remember that it is always greener on the other side....
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I do sympathise, I really do but as a wannabe i'm going for my CPL/IR in 6 months 100%. As a couple of people have said already, "the grass is always greener on the other side". These may sound like empty words when you're redundant and life is hard but the fact of the matter is that by changing the words "aviation" and "flying" in these posts the thread could quite easily apply to any other profession. It's easy not to see that if you've been flying for the last 10+ years. Just about every day on in the news someone is laying off workers or moving overseas - the chances are if you ring your banks main line you'll be put through to India! Give this thread to a bank teller and they will probably choke!
I would love to experienced the old days flying glamorous aircraft to seemingly exotic locations but unfortunately i'm too young and I can only listen to stories. Times have changed and nobody is allowed to enjoy themselves at work anymore.
I'm sure many of you will put me down as too inexperienced to comment or may dismiss me altogether but believe me, things may have deteriorated in aviation but from my side of the fence your jobs are still pretty awe inspiring. Granted the public do not see 95% of the work but from my current low paid, shift work, labourish job I would remove body parts to be where you are (I need my arms, legs and head to fly, so that just leaves... Oh no
).
Good luck to everyone, what ever choice you make but i've decided i'm going to try to make a living, no matter how small, from doing what i've always dreamed. There will be a job going at BP in six months, night shifts, 18k, quite physical, no prospects!
I'm not bitter, just trying to add a little perspective.
I would love to experienced the old days flying glamorous aircraft to seemingly exotic locations but unfortunately i'm too young and I can only listen to stories. Times have changed and nobody is allowed to enjoy themselves at work anymore.
I'm sure many of you will put me down as too inexperienced to comment or may dismiss me altogether but believe me, things may have deteriorated in aviation but from my side of the fence your jobs are still pretty awe inspiring. Granted the public do not see 95% of the work but from my current low paid, shift work, labourish job I would remove body parts to be where you are (I need my arms, legs and head to fly, so that just leaves... Oh no
).Good luck to everyone, what ever choice you make but i've decided i'm going to try to make a living, no matter how small, from doing what i've always dreamed. There will be a job going at BP in six months, night shifts, 18k, quite physical, no prospects!
I'm not bitter, just trying to add a little perspective.
Paxing All Over The World
Speaking from outside of your line of work (like the name says, I am mere pax) then what you are experiencing is the same as everyone else.
In the 23 years that I have been in commerce, I have seen all the changes to which you refer - simply apllied to other fields. In Telecommunications, we used to be a bit of a free roaming bunch. We would turn out for the job at any time of the day or night, get it on the road and were respected for what we did and paid a decent wage.
Now? It is controlled 24 hours a day by a string of managers who have no idea what they are managing. The bean counters make decisions that make our working lives complicated and do so without reference to us. The timescales for a project to be completed take less respect for the work actually involved and more for what the boss has already promised the board. When we tell him (it usually is a 'him') that it won't fit/work in the time available, we are told to lump it or leave it.
When travelling on biz we used to travel 1st on the train and Club on the plane. Now, us lowly folk in telecomms and IT are shoved back down the bus and only the fancy pants that meet the customer, may travel up the front.
People who are less experienced bluff their way into the biz and make enormous headway. I realise that this will not (I hope!) be the same on the flight deck but you will have seen lots of little boys with the word 'manager' in their title, when they can hardly manage their own bladder.
I could go on. You only have to talk to teachers and university lecturers, people in what is left of the UK regional theatre system, the National Health and even central governement.
So, what you see and experience is no less painful for knowing but ... it is the same as everyone else.
(Unless you work in corporate, it would seem Bumz?
)
In the 23 years that I have been in commerce, I have seen all the changes to which you refer - simply apllied to other fields. In Telecommunications, we used to be a bit of a free roaming bunch. We would turn out for the job at any time of the day or night, get it on the road and were respected for what we did and paid a decent wage.
Now? It is controlled 24 hours a day by a string of managers who have no idea what they are managing. The bean counters make decisions that make our working lives complicated and do so without reference to us. The timescales for a project to be completed take less respect for the work actually involved and more for what the boss has already promised the board. When we tell him (it usually is a 'him') that it won't fit/work in the time available, we are told to lump it or leave it.
When travelling on biz we used to travel 1st on the train and Club on the plane. Now, us lowly folk in telecomms and IT are shoved back down the bus and only the fancy pants that meet the customer, may travel up the front.
People who are less experienced bluff their way into the biz and make enormous headway. I realise that this will not (I hope!) be the same on the flight deck but you will have seen lots of little boys with the word 'manager' in their title, when they can hardly manage their own bladder.
I could go on. You only have to talk to teachers and university lecturers, people in what is left of the UK regional theatre system, the National Health and even central governement.
So, what you see and experience is no less painful for knowing but ... it is the same as everyone else.
(Unless you work in corporate, it would seem Bumz?
)
Ditto for ATC PAXboy. Indeed, the same rings through for so many occupations. With some noteable exceptions many businesses are managed by people who don't have the remotest idea over what they're managing. Job cuts are made under the pretext of market conditions and economics - and what they "save" goes into nice fat bonus payments for themselves in recognition of their great skills! We are being conned people. It's time for a WORKERS REVOLUTION brothers!
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I remember "The good old days"....
Vietnam, coal strikes, paranoia about nuclear attack, four million unemployed.....those were the days.
Then there's "the good old days" my dad had......dropping bombs on civilians, getting shot down in flames, fascist control of Europe, rationing.
Now my grandad....he had a great time on the Somme.....
Vietnam, coal strikes, paranoia about nuclear attack, four million unemployed.....those were the days.
Then there's "the good old days" my dad had......dropping bombs on civilians, getting shot down in flames, fascist control of Europe, rationing.
Now my grandad....he had a great time on the Somme.....
Well it just goes to show that the "40 Year Plan" that we were all programmed to believe and put our faith in is a broken model - it just does not work the way we were told!
i.e. Get a good education, train for a profession and then when you are about 25 years old you go to work for a "good" company for life and then retire at 65 years on this pot of gold called a pension!! And we now have the UK government talking about putting the retirement age up to 70!!
I am sure all of the contributors to this thread, including me, love flying aeroplanes and despite all the insecurities of the airline industry the best bit is once the wheels are off the ground.
However, we should not expect a "J.O.B" (Just Over Broke) on it's own to fulfill all our expectations. My advice is do NOT put all you eggs in one basket. By all means fly for a living but safeguard your financial future by doing other things.
Oh and by the way, the reference to money not making you happy - well, I have had it and not had it and I know which I prefer!! Money doesn't solve everything but at least you can arrive at your challenges in style.
i.e. Get a good education, train for a profession and then when you are about 25 years old you go to work for a "good" company for life and then retire at 65 years on this pot of gold called a pension!! And we now have the UK government talking about putting the retirement age up to 70!!
I am sure all of the contributors to this thread, including me, love flying aeroplanes and despite all the insecurities of the airline industry the best bit is once the wheels are off the ground.
However, we should not expect a "J.O.B" (Just Over Broke) on it's own to fulfill all our expectations. My advice is do NOT put all you eggs in one basket. By all means fly for a living but safeguard your financial future by doing other things.
Oh and by the way, the reference to money not making you happy - well, I have had it and not had it and I know which I prefer!! Money doesn't solve everything but at least you can arrive at your challenges in style.
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Capt BK, I go along with your thread, you are right.
I am sorry to see that so many of you feel bitter and kindda sad about the job. Of course you have lived the amazing years of commercial aviation and things that none of us would ever experience. But things change, they always change, they have always changed, and it is sad to see that some do take it so seriously.
I respect all of you who have been flying our dream machine for the last 25 years, those of you that have made us dream of becoming a pilot one day when we were looking at you coming down the alley with your flashy stripes and your hats. I always felt this incredibly strong feeling of admiration, dream and respect.
And I loved planes, from as far as I can remember, I love planes.
Today, I fly commercially, a job most of you 'old boys' would never do or have never gone for, somewhere in Africa, ****ty little singles and twins, overweight most of the time, crappy weather with no radio aid, and for a crap pay (compared to the 6 figures some of you, my Lords, have been clearing in the "Golden Age" of aviation - go discuss this to someone doing under $18K and working 8 hours a day, 7 days a week). But I love it. I always wanted to do it, I always wanted to fly those machines and what better than being paid for it. And I remember seeing you coming down the alley and I have a big smile on my face. From here I will probably go regional or maybe corporate, or even cargo, and I guess that in 20 years I'll be complaining too about the conditions, about the wages, about the changing times. And I'll remember this thread, but today I love it, I wouldn't do any other job, even for more money. Oh yeah, I'm one of these stupid romantics. Until I become one of those grumpy old men.
Yes, I guess there's a better career prospect at McDonald or Disney, and if I'm lucky I could save enough to fly on weekends. Well, I think it would be really good for a lot of us, if the unhappy ones decide to leave, retire, and go fishing the tarpon.
Let's not be too extreme though, I understand that it has changed in the wrong direction, and it is really not as great as it was, but for those who entered the career in the last years, it is still a very nice, fun, job, and we know we won't make the big pay you had, but we'll still do it as good as you did it and with the same passion.
I am sorry to see that so many of you feel bitter and kindda sad about the job. Of course you have lived the amazing years of commercial aviation and things that none of us would ever experience. But things change, they always change, they have always changed, and it is sad to see that some do take it so seriously.
I respect all of you who have been flying our dream machine for the last 25 years, those of you that have made us dream of becoming a pilot one day when we were looking at you coming down the alley with your flashy stripes and your hats. I always felt this incredibly strong feeling of admiration, dream and respect.
And I loved planes, from as far as I can remember, I love planes.
Today, I fly commercially, a job most of you 'old boys' would never do or have never gone for, somewhere in Africa, ****ty little singles and twins, overweight most of the time, crappy weather with no radio aid, and for a crap pay (compared to the 6 figures some of you, my Lords, have been clearing in the "Golden Age" of aviation - go discuss this to someone doing under $18K and working 8 hours a day, 7 days a week). But I love it. I always wanted to do it, I always wanted to fly those machines and what better than being paid for it. And I remember seeing you coming down the alley and I have a big smile on my face. From here I will probably go regional or maybe corporate, or even cargo, and I guess that in 20 years I'll be complaining too about the conditions, about the wages, about the changing times. And I'll remember this thread, but today I love it, I wouldn't do any other job, even for more money. Oh yeah, I'm one of these stupid romantics. Until I become one of those grumpy old men.
Yes, I guess there's a better career prospect at McDonald or Disney, and if I'm lucky I could save enough to fly on weekends. Well, I think it would be really good for a lot of us, if the unhappy ones decide to leave, retire, and go fishing the tarpon.
Let's not be too extreme though, I understand that it has changed in the wrong direction, and it is really not as great as it was, but for those who entered the career in the last years, it is still a very nice, fun, job, and we know we won't make the big pay you had, but we'll still do it as good as you did it and with the same passion.
Good for you Shenzi
I too was mad keen to fly anything in my youth, and to honest a bit beyond that too. Don't knock what you are doing now. The experience will serve you well in the future. Clapped out planes and African conditions will give you a good grounding in airmanship. As we get older and the conditions more cushy and the challenge fades we get bored and upset about the wrong things. In later years when something really pissed me off, I used to say to myself: just remember the s**t you put up with in **** airlines and I would thank my lucky stars. And looking back? I wouldn't change much if I had my time again.
Jambo
I too was mad keen to fly anything in my youth, and to honest a bit beyond that too. Don't knock what you are doing now. The experience will serve you well in the future. Clapped out planes and African conditions will give you a good grounding in airmanship. As we get older and the conditions more cushy and the challenge fades we get bored and upset about the wrong things. In later years when something really pissed me off, I used to say to myself: just remember the s**t you put up with in **** airlines and I would thank my lucky stars. And looking back? I wouldn't change much if I had my time again.
Jambo
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I can see where you lads are coming from- even with my limited experience. I started flying commercialy in late 2000 as a lowly flight instructor (still am). To me, the good old days are pre-9/11. Training has tanked ever since. I wish I had the oppertunity to have seen 'the good old days'. Flying still gets me excited but I wonder how much longer it will take before that fades with the current climate. Prospects are dim- but I'm hanging in there. My advice for the others with more experience is to do the same for as long as you can. I've had way worse jobs than this and have no desire to go back. You'll know when to throw in the towel the day you can't get out of bed and go to work. Until then, think of all the poor bastards like me that will never know half the pleasure in this job you had in the past- and be thankful for what you have had! I'm just glad I could get out of bed this morning- I'll see about tomorrow........Good luck to all.
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Farside:
Granted all is not as it was but shouldn't you occasionally ask yourself where would you be if it was not for aviation. It was Antoine de Saint Exupery who said : " Flying raises a man from mediocrity " and 1200 years before that Li Tai Pai, Tang Dynasty poet said :
" When one has good wine,
A graceful boat,
And a maiden's love,
Why envy the immortal Gods. "
Most people can't understand that the only thing that does not change is that everything changes. Think about that and be glad you are not of the masses.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
Granted all is not as it was but shouldn't you occasionally ask yourself where would you be if it was not for aviation. It was Antoine de Saint Exupery who said : " Flying raises a man from mediocrity " and 1200 years before that Li Tai Pai, Tang Dynasty poet said :
" When one has good wine,
A graceful boat,
And a maiden's love,
Why envy the immortal Gods. "
Most people can't understand that the only thing that does not change is that everything changes. Think about that and be glad you are not of the masses.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
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Yes I really like this topic and where does it lead us.
Where do we go from here?
I was taught in the Military that we operate within a set state of standards.
Once we exceed or break that standard then we establish a new standard.
If allowed to continue before too long we have no standards at all.
Is this what we ourselves have caused by letting the upper management change everything?
Then when we complain they say, You are lucky to have a job, 10 pilots would give their eye teeth to be where you are at.
Where do we go from here?
I was taught in the Military that we operate within a set state of standards.
Once we exceed or break that standard then we establish a new standard.
If allowed to continue before too long we have no standards at all.
Is this what we ourselves have caused by letting the upper management change everything?
Then when we complain they say, You are lucky to have a job, 10 pilots would give their eye teeth to be where you are at.
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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I was lucky enough to have nearly 20 years of flying in the military before coming out into commercial aviation. The aircraft I flew were either built or designed before I was born and, to my great good fortune, I flew with a wide variety of old and bold aviators - most of whom have sadly now retired.
My goodness did I learn a lot about flying! I still try and pass on some of the many gems I picked up from these fine people (sadly I have probably forgotten more than half of it and I probably don't pass it on half as well).
I remember some excellent times seeing the sun come up, watching the northern lights, flashing across a hillside at first light at low level. Going down town overseas mob-handed.
Now I fly for a small/medium commercial operation and I am that little bit older but there is still nothing that quite matches getting your backside off the ground on a good day and really operating the machine to its and your full capabilities.
Remember, these are tomorrows good old days - and when it all comes together, flying is still the Sport of Kings!
My goodness did I learn a lot about flying! I still try and pass on some of the many gems I picked up from these fine people (sadly I have probably forgotten more than half of it and I probably don't pass it on half as well).
I remember some excellent times seeing the sun come up, watching the northern lights, flashing across a hillside at first light at low level. Going down town overseas mob-handed.
Now I fly for a small/medium commercial operation and I am that little bit older but there is still nothing that quite matches getting your backside off the ground on a good day and really operating the machine to its and your full capabilities.
Remember, these are tomorrows good old days - and when it all comes together, flying is still the Sport of Kings!
Last edited by keepin it in trim; 12th Jun 2003 at 08:15.
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Yes I can relate.
Even the O dark thirty alerts then flying low level at 500 feet AGL
then going to 1000 feet an doing the drop, repeating just once for practice, then going to the club for a beer.
Everything was prepared for you, weather Etc.
Boy were we ever spoiled.
Now its departure times changed three times in one day.
After a 14 hour day then its a 6 hour bus ride from Manston to Manchester.
Only to find that your crew base has changed to a different Continent. An you need to move with only 23 Kilos of baggaged allowed. You have been away for 5 weeks already!
Then the out of pocket expences you have been trying to re-coup for months is not allowed due to the station not having enough money to reinburse you, only to find you have to spend much more to get to your next base, taxi bus etc.
Its only getting worse, new standards that we allow.
Even the O dark thirty alerts then flying low level at 500 feet AGL
then going to 1000 feet an doing the drop, repeating just once for practice, then going to the club for a beer.
Everything was prepared for you, weather Etc.
Boy were we ever spoiled.
Now its departure times changed three times in one day.
After a 14 hour day then its a 6 hour bus ride from Manston to Manchester.
Only to find that your crew base has changed to a different Continent. An you need to move with only 23 Kilos of baggaged allowed. You have been away for 5 weeks already!
Then the out of pocket expences you have been trying to re-coup for months is not allowed due to the station not having enough money to reinburse you, only to find you have to spend much more to get to your next base, taxi bus etc.
Its only getting worse, new standards that we allow.
We're not so much talking about "When I were a lad" here, we're discussing how things have gone downhill in about the last 4 years or so.
Yellow-jacket mentality, security frisking by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper, increased working periods, fewer breaks unless the bean counters are forced to schedule them, being locked in the flight deck, not being permitted to wander around and chat to the passengers.....all these have contributed to making an airline job pretty unappealing. I'm leaving the military with over 5000 hours on the VC10, 4000+ in command and 2500+ as a training captain. I have an ATPL - but there's no way I'd want to put up with the bus drivers' life of an airline pilot.
Good luck to those who still want to be airline pilots.....
Yellow-jacket mentality, security frisking by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper, increased working periods, fewer breaks unless the bean counters are forced to schedule them, being locked in the flight deck, not being permitted to wander around and chat to the passengers.....all these have contributed to making an airline job pretty unappealing. I'm leaving the military with over 5000 hours on the VC10, 4000+ in command and 2500+ as a training captain. I have an ATPL - but there's no way I'd want to put up with the bus drivers' life of an airline pilot.
Good luck to those who still want to be airline pilots.....
