Where are the good old days ?
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BEagle:
With the greatest respect I must point out that you appear to have missed the point and I feel this is because you have been spoiled.To get an understanding of what we are discussing why don't you duck across to the USA or come down to New Zealand or Australia and try your hand at crop spraying. Dust the sides of some mountains and spray a few fields of wheat and thus learn something about survival flying. It would help you appreciate the world of the airline pilot. Regards,
Prince of Dzun
With the greatest respect I must point out that you appear to have missed the point and I feel this is because you have been spoiled.To get an understanding of what we are discussing why don't you duck across to the USA or come down to New Zealand or Australia and try your hand at crop spraying. Dust the sides of some mountains and spray a few fields of wheat and thus learn something about survival flying. It would help you appreciate the world of the airline pilot. Regards,
Prince of Dzun
Would love to! Real flying like that sounds a lot more fun than bus driving!
A well-respected avaition organisation has recently recognised that "The kudos, rewards and conditions in the airline industry are no longer sufficient to attract the best quality individuals to the profession".
A well-respected avaition organisation has recently recognised that "The kudos, rewards and conditions in the airline industry are no longer sufficient to attract the best quality individuals to the profession".
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I can certainly identify with this. Anytime I watch "Catch Me if You Can," I cannot help but marvel and think that maybe I was born 30 years too late.
Here I am, at 30 years old having flown for the last 15. I went at it full tilt sparing no energy, enthusiasm or cash to get into this career line (including getting an aviation related Bachelor's degree from a prestigious university) and now . . . I promise myself that I will do all I can to disuade my daughter from being a pilot. But heck, then I only see her a couple of weeks every 3 months and my wife and I aren't even separated or divorced?
Yeah, there are great memories. Seen great sunrises and sunsets. Landing and being surrounded by banana trees, landing on desert mesas, seeing gorgeous glaciers from below mountain peak level, and others. I have travelled to many places.
But there are so many negatives. I've never managed to hold any aviation job for more than 2 years-- the industry is too unstable so the first thing I do when I start a new job is update my resume and send more of them out. I have rarely been able to make ends meet. I have met some of the bizarest personalities. There are those unwilling to advance you, despite competency and qualifications because they feel that you have not yet "paid your dues" enough. I also remember being invited for dinner by one boss-- expecting to be congratulated for all the hard work I had done for the company only to be the next victim of his paranoid witch hunt and told that I would be terminated (never mind that it was the day before my daughter had to go in for an operation). I have seen pension funds raided to keep a money loosing companies afloat. I have seen our suggestions been thrown by the wayside by management with the condescending attitude of "you don't see the big picture" while the Company loses mega bucks and then comes to the employees demanding "we must all pitch in by making sacrifices" (a.k.a. wage cuts).
Now I find myself in what could be a dream job, but in one novel I read someone explained to the protagonist that "there is no paradise on earth, something must always be imperfect otherwise nobody would want to go to heaven."
I am making good money now (something I have never been accustomed too, hence our single compact 12-year old car). I am also flying very rarely and being treated and fed fairly decently. But here too, things are in decline, the stability and mid to long term prospect wears a big question mark. There has been a constant strain on my family life, I have never been able to know whether I could maintain a "normal" standard of living and I wonder if I will ever have enough money to pay my daughter's college tuition or to retire comfortably (without having to move in with my daughter and her family some day).
Another colleague, a couple years older and also an FO, is seriously thinking about leaving aviation. I sometimes wonder whether I would have had the talent to become a lawyer or some other professional. It overjoys us, at least, when I see our 3 year old putting a bandage on "Teddy" or telling one of her dolls to "take all your medicine and you will feel better."
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Am I A Dreamer?
Hi All,
I have been in the aviation industry for a few years now, got a few hours, an ATP, and a left seat on a regional airplane. I have always been interested in knowing to the best I can my airplane, the aircraft systems, the performance, etc., so I try to get the best of my flying time, and, yes, looking for that little satisfaction, maybe, when at the end of the day I can say : "I did my best, and I will keep trying"
Now here is the thing: I do not find a lot of enthousiasts in the airline business, more of pilots who feel it's just "another job".
In the company I am now, I came up with suggestions to save 25,000 USD per year per airplane, without any additional investment. The representative of the pilots (a pilot himself) just replies:"I don'tcare about that kind of paper, I just put the throttles forward, and then look out the window for the landscape).
I don't know if you get the picture, but WHERE IS THE PASSION? Where is the enthousiasm, the drive of making a better, safer, day in flying?
I started aviation in flying gliders, like some of you. There was a real sense of willingness, and we were not even paid for it.
Maybe some will think "get a life", hey, I have a life, live in a beautiful place, enjoy my time off with people I love.
But I chose aviation because it is some kindamagic thing, and I wonder if there is any airline or pilots who realises what a difference it makes to have individuals that are motivated beyond the money, or the prestige, or the power.
English is not my primary language, so hope there is no mis-statements, but I am sure most will get the general idea.
Any replies welcome
I have been in the aviation industry for a few years now, got a few hours, an ATP, and a left seat on a regional airplane. I have always been interested in knowing to the best I can my airplane, the aircraft systems, the performance, etc., so I try to get the best of my flying time, and, yes, looking for that little satisfaction, maybe, when at the end of the day I can say : "I did my best, and I will keep trying"
Now here is the thing: I do not find a lot of enthousiasts in the airline business, more of pilots who feel it's just "another job".
In the company I am now, I came up with suggestions to save 25,000 USD per year per airplane, without any additional investment. The representative of the pilots (a pilot himself) just replies:"I don'tcare about that kind of paper, I just put the throttles forward, and then look out the window for the landscape).
I don't know if you get the picture, but WHERE IS THE PASSION? Where is the enthousiasm, the drive of making a better, safer, day in flying?
I started aviation in flying gliders, like some of you. There was a real sense of willingness, and we were not even paid for it.
Maybe some will think "get a life", hey, I have a life, live in a beautiful place, enjoy my time off with people I love.
But I chose aviation because it is some kindamagic thing, and I wonder if there is any airline or pilots who realises what a difference it makes to have individuals that are motivated beyond the money, or the prestige, or the power.
English is not my primary language, so hope there is no mis-statements, but I am sure most will get the general idea.
Any replies welcome
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... what a strong response...worldwide
This shows it's not isolated in just some regional areas, as certain business morals take effect...
It has tapped a vein alright, and its a strong one Jim.
This shows it's not isolated in just some regional areas, as certain business morals take effect...
It has tapped a vein alright, and its a strong one Jim.
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Our #6 son wanted to fly. I encouraged him. Extremely intelligent, perfect shape, he enrolled in the AFROTC.
Upon graduating with honors, he applied for flight training. Shot down. "Wrong race and gender, kid, we'll put you on a list."
He served his time, studied accounting, and was accepted by Wharton in PHL. He just graduated with honors with his MBA. He stepped right into a job with a good future, 30 days paid vacation, and $115,000 P/A. How many 30 year old pilots can say this?
Times here are tough, and a lot of the graduates are still looking. Three years ago, the graduates were swamped by recruiters. Not so this year, but the best job went to a friend who is guaranteed 250G's plus commissions on Wall Street.
You really have to like your job, or it's not worth it today.
Upon graduating with honors, he applied for flight training. Shot down. "Wrong race and gender, kid, we'll put you on a list."
He served his time, studied accounting, and was accepted by Wharton in PHL. He just graduated with honors with his MBA. He stepped right into a job with a good future, 30 days paid vacation, and $115,000 P/A. How many 30 year old pilots can say this?
Times here are tough, and a lot of the graduates are still looking. Three years ago, the graduates were swamped by recruiters. Not so this year, but the best job went to a friend who is guaranteed 250G's plus commissions on Wall Street.
You really have to like your job, or it's not worth it today.
Moderator
Sad to say it but I think that, to a greater extent, some of the pilot fraternity have only got themselves to blame for many of these changes.
There are some pilots who if the management said "Fly aeroplanes upside-down today" would meekly obey their order! The "Martini" set still exist, you know, "anytime, any place..."
If all flight deck crew were part of an organisation (dare I even mention the word union!) which had some muscle and bargaining power then our lives would still have just a few perks.
It is obviously not feasible to return to the heady days of yesteryear but we have to get the message across to the bean-counters, the travelling public and the share-holders that pilots still have an enormous responsibility despite the fact that it's all "automatic" these days!
There are some pilots who if the management said "Fly aeroplanes upside-down today" would meekly obey their order! The "Martini" set still exist, you know, "anytime, any place..."
If all flight deck crew were part of an organisation (dare I even mention the word union!) which had some muscle and bargaining power then our lives would still have just a few perks.
It is obviously not feasible to return to the heady days of yesteryear but we have to get the message across to the bean-counters, the travelling public and the share-holders that pilots still have an enormous responsibility despite the fact that it's all "automatic" these days!
The first issue that WE rolled over on since I've been in the industry was flight crew "security" screening. Where exactly is the logic of subjecting flight crew to passenger screening. Especially when the REASON that we had to be subject to screening was due to the actions of a GROUND OPS (PSA 1771) employee, who, ironically, are STILL not subject to passenger or any other type of screening.
If you are going to choose just 2 employee groups to be screened as passengers, why choose the only 2 employee groups (pilots and flight attendants) that don't need a weapon to "take over" the aircraft. It gives us a zero net gain in actual aircraft security, yet a 100% net gain in flight crew AND passenger inconvenience (since we jump to the front of the line).
Ditto for drug/alcohol testing... A couple of train drivers take the Grateful Dead's advice and drive the train, high on cocaine, so WE get mandatory, random drug testing...........at the end of our trip on OUR time, when we would otherwise be going home. Excuse me, but, if this is actually a problem, then wouldn't it make more sense to test us before, or during our trip?
These are ony 2 serious issues in the last 15 years that WE could have had some say in, but for whatever reason, chose not to.
Prior to 9/11, as a B-737 Capt. I was personally responsible for over $12 billion of liability (total loss of a full airplane, not counting anything that is hit on the ground), which has gone up since 9/11.
In a nutshell, either I am a trusted employee, or I'm not. If I am not a trusted employee, then I should not be in command of a 130,000 lb cruise missile. If I am a trusted employee, then I should not be standing in my socks every day, silently absorbing the condescending comments from HS dropouts. All the passenger screening in the world is not going to change the fact that I will have complete control of the airplane just minutes after my small tools and toiltries are pilferred.
I can't help wondering what Ernest K Gann, Dave Behncke, Ed Musick or any of the others who paved the road that our profession ride on would say to the tsA employee that forced them to remove their shoes or belt............
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ALL:
For those of you who have Antoine de Saint Exupery's 'Wind Sand and Stars ' on your bookshelf may I suggest you take it down and re-read pages 11,12 and 13. They contain a graphic description of St. Ex's feelings towards the non flying workers who travelled on the airport bus with him one bleak Parisian morning. He compares his life as a pilot to theirs and he speaks of how the " clay that formed them has dried and hardened ". He reflects on the fact that within two hours of stepping off that bus he will be confronting " dark dragons" high above the earth. He leaves it for the reader to ponder the dreary life of those men of clay who ride the bus everyday. Written in 1938 but still applicable to today and especially relevant to this discussion.
Prince of Dzun
For those of you who have Antoine de Saint Exupery's 'Wind Sand and Stars ' on your bookshelf may I suggest you take it down and re-read pages 11,12 and 13. They contain a graphic description of St. Ex's feelings towards the non flying workers who travelled on the airport bus with him one bleak Parisian morning. He compares his life as a pilot to theirs and he speaks of how the " clay that formed them has dried and hardened ". He reflects on the fact that within two hours of stepping off that bus he will be confronting " dark dragons" high above the earth. He leaves it for the reader to ponder the dreary life of those men of clay who ride the bus everyday. Written in 1938 but still applicable to today and especially relevant to this discussion.
Prince of Dzun
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And if our unions would come to their senses and drop the absurdity that we call seniority lists, then our employers would actually have to come up with incentives to retain our services and alexb757 would have a decent job today.
Yeah, yeah I know. I just won´t let it go.
Yeah, yeah I know. I just won´t let it go.
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Used to drink with a guy who reckoned that things would never be same until airlines had HP42s or flying boats again. He remembered the days when the captain stayed in a separate hotel to be entertained by colonial dignitaries. His first officer often walked respectfully behind him carrying his briefcase. The purser, doubled as 'Ship's clerk' and did all the paperwork.
Now I'm coming near retirement and the 'good old days' were the freight runs to the far east and back. Hauled by four propellers it used to take us ten days for one trip, 8 hotels.
What will be 'the good old days' the present generation will recall?
Now I'm coming near retirement and the 'good old days' were the freight runs to the far east and back. Hauled by four propellers it used to take us ten days for one trip, 8 hotels.
What will be 'the good old days' the present generation will recall?
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In the 1970's TWA had pairings that would allow you to fly only 4 or 5 trips a quarter, depending on the bow wave from the previous quarter. Included were around the world pairings, Polar flights, etc..
Long trips, many hotels, but good trips. They went senior.
Long trips, many hotels, but good trips. They went senior.
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Prinz - Thanks for mentioning Wind, Sand and Stars. The man is a real philosopher.
http://www.doyletics.com/arj/wsasrvw.htm
I must get that book.
Bigmouth - Shut it. How long do you think you'd last without a union seniority list? The older you got the more apprehensive you'd become about the future. That's no carreer, that's a nightmare.
http://www.doyletics.com/arj/wsasrvw.htm
I must get that book.
Bigmouth - Shut it. How long do you think you'd last without a union seniority list? The older you got the more apprehensive you'd become about the future. That's no carreer, that's a nightmare.
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I don't care about the money - I've done other well paid jobs during my REDUNDANT years, but for me flying is what I LOVE TO DO.
Yes, security is a right pain in the ARSE - especially when some 19 year old A-level failure starts questioning me when I go through security for the tenth time in a week - closed flightdeck doors are a pain in the arse because it screws the working relationship with CC, and the list goes on. BUT, when I'm sitting there at FL 390 and seeing another fantastic sunrise over some obscure mountain-range that no-one has ever heard of I know that I'm where I really want to be. 16 years since I soloed, thousands of hours in single/ multi pilot aeroplanes and I still EFFING love it.
For all of you doomsdayers out there put that in your pipe and gag on it. To all of the wannabes - stick with it, it's still the best paid HOBBY
in the world..
Yes, security is a right pain in the ARSE - especially when some 19 year old A-level failure starts questioning me when I go through security for the tenth time in a week - closed flightdeck doors are a pain in the arse because it screws the working relationship with CC, and the list goes on. BUT, when I'm sitting there at FL 390 and seeing another fantastic sunrise over some obscure mountain-range that no-one has ever heard of I know that I'm where I really want to be. 16 years since I soloed, thousands of hours in single/ multi pilot aeroplanes and I still EFFING love it.
For all of you doomsdayers out there put that in your pipe and gag on it. To all of the wannabes - stick with it, it's still the best paid HOBBY
in the world..
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White Knight -
To whose rescue are you riding, airline management?
If things go on the way they are, I will get a better paid job outside flying and still ENJOY flying as a true HOBBY.
Most of us who fly professionally enjoy it; I suspect that's why we have put up with some shoddy management far longer than other professionals such as barristers and doctors. However, current trends suggest that our status will be reduced to that of bus drivers with similar pay and conditions.
So I don't regard it as a hobby, otherwise airline managements would be out charging plane spotters for the privilege of doing it. Perhaps you should reconsider your attitude, you'll get fleeced otherwise.
And now is not the time to put a gag in it, quite the opposite. Given the option, would you rather fly for nothing or for a decent salary?
Thought so.
To whose rescue are you riding, airline management?
If things go on the way they are, I will get a better paid job outside flying and still ENJOY flying as a true HOBBY.
Most of us who fly professionally enjoy it; I suspect that's why we have put up with some shoddy management far longer than other professionals such as barristers and doctors. However, current trends suggest that our status will be reduced to that of bus drivers with similar pay and conditions.
So I don't regard it as a hobby, otherwise airline managements would be out charging plane spotters for the privilege of doing it. Perhaps you should reconsider your attitude, you'll get fleeced otherwise.
And now is not the time to put a gag in it, quite the opposite. Given the option, would you rather fly for nothing or for a decent salary?
Thought so.
I'm sure that the "golden age" of airline flying ended a dozen or so years ago. I was fortunate to go into private/corporate flying and have not regreted it for one second. No seniority lists, no office politics, an aircraft thats "clean" both technically and hygienically, no 6 sector days....bliss.
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I.M. Esperto:
Thanks for putting up the website that reviewed Antoine de Saint Exupery's " Wind Sand and Stars ". It is one of the best reviews I have read and truly captures the spirit of his book.
Many have enthralled and entertained with aviation writings but it is only St. Ex who makes us think.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
Thanks for putting up the website that reviewed Antoine de Saint Exupery's " Wind Sand and Stars ". It is one of the best reviews I have read and truly captures the spirit of his book.
Many have enthralled and entertained with aviation writings but it is only St. Ex who makes us think.
Regards,
Prince of Dzun
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Guess I'm pretty lucky then........
Currently working in Africa and have been for all my aviation career. Where I'm from my complexion and gender preclude me from any worthwhile airline job so I've been operating in the bush. Flown the venerable DC3, mighty Twotter, 748s, F27s, and most light singles and twins in some pretty rough conditions. Been shot at, jailed, bombed, taken hostage and had some pretty close shaves with the wildlife. Fetched my boss and some colleagues in body bags two hours after dropping them off in a remote location. Flown some dodgy types and watched the nose gear through a hole in the floor or had a cup of tea and a stew made on a gas stove in the back by a friendly engineer. Had a great time and met some good people, most of whom I regard as friends.
Left a well paying IT job to fly. Couldn't crap in my boss' ashtray the day I left as the bastard was out to lunch. Battled along for months with no pay from some dodgy operators where I ended up paying for the boss' BMW, ostensibly to keep the company afloat (Yeah, I'm fick). In the end I now have a good/reasonable job flying big noisy smelly beasts with bad attitudes for not much money but enjoying every minute.
In all I reckon it was a good move and my only regret is that I took so much time to get off my backside and start flying. Wish I'd tried to crap in my ex boss' ashtray much earlier.........
Left a well paying IT job to fly. Couldn't crap in my boss' ashtray the day I left as the bastard was out to lunch. Battled along for months with no pay from some dodgy operators where I ended up paying for the boss' BMW, ostensibly to keep the company afloat (Yeah, I'm fick). In the end I now have a good/reasonable job flying big noisy smelly beasts with bad attitudes for not much money but enjoying every minute.
In all I reckon it was a good move and my only regret is that I took so much time to get off my backside and start flying. Wish I'd tried to crap in my ex boss' ashtray much earlier.........
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NEO With views like those of White Knight is it any wonder this job is going the way it is!! He (White Knight) is a fairly new F/O with Emirates who waxes lyrical about his paid 'Hobby' at every opportunity. When I join Emirates as a DEC I will soon sort him out!! He will probably change his tune when that event occurs if it ever does!