Discrimination
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Discrimination
I read Attitude. This made me reflect on my 9 yearlong expat career a bit. Been working on 3 continents since I left home and I always felt it outright. The Gods just did not like the fact that I do not come from a country with a major contribution to aviation (USA - the Wrights, UK - instrument flying, RSA - bush flying, Australia - flying cowboys, docs etc). Russia does not count, as there are no expat jobs available there.
I always had to be on the average 3 times better just to be equal with guys who speak English as a First Language. And still did not land the job.
I have to keep 2 logbooks. One in my language and a second one, in English... ICAO has more than 1 official language. At an interview one God tried to read my logbook upside down... I believe this was not ignorance but contempt as numbers are much more in percentage in any logbook than words...
Probably I am too subjective, but it is from sheer experience. And unlike many guys I cannot go back home to a job (any flying job for that matter - they are nonexistent anymore).
I would like to have some feedback about any discrimination in the industry based on race, origin, politics etc.
I always had to be on the average 3 times better just to be equal with guys who speak English as a First Language. And still did not land the job.
I have to keep 2 logbooks. One in my language and a second one, in English... ICAO has more than 1 official language. At an interview one God tried to read my logbook upside down... I believe this was not ignorance but contempt as numbers are much more in percentage in any logbook than words...
Probably I am too subjective, but it is from sheer experience. And unlike many guys I cannot go back home to a job (any flying job for that matter - they are nonexistent anymore).
I would like to have some feedback about any discrimination in the industry based on race, origin, politics etc.
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Eventhough a JAA license gives you the possibility to work anywhere in the JAA, some countries (where english is not spoken) stipulate that you must speak/read/write the local lingo to be considered. make of that what you will.. fair or market protectionism or just chiefpilot xenophobia..who knows?..
JAA is very Orwellian, some countries are more equal than others
JAA is very Orwellian, some countries are more equal than others
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It is universal. A stranger in a strange land.
I think most countries/ companies would favor Nationals over expatriates and they probably should. I'm not sure you can call it discrimination, it is probably protectionism.
I think most countries/ companies would favor Nationals over expatriates and they probably should. I'm not sure you can call it discrimination, it is probably protectionism.
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I feel discrimination, these days, is more likely to benefit the ethnic minority or female applicant over a better qualified white male.
Forgive the stereotypes.
Furthermore, without using contentious labels like discrimination or protectionism, it is more likely that the management are looking for stability in their employees.
This will result in local applicants having a better chance than some-one who may have a similar background to yours.
As you brought the subject up and appear to be in self-examination mode, who are you to judge that you are three times better than the other applicants?
Maybe its just attitude.
Forgive the stereotypes.
Furthermore, without using contentious labels like discrimination or protectionism, it is more likely that the management are looking for stability in their employees.
This will result in local applicants having a better chance than some-one who may have a similar background to yours.
As you brought the subject up and appear to be in self-examination mode, who are you to judge that you are three times better than the other applicants?
Maybe its just attitude.
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IHL is right on the button. Discrimination is part of human nature.
As a long term expat, I have learned to live with discriminatory practices that aren't tolerated in UK; I hardly notice them now, they aren't really important. In many places it is taken for granted that foreigners may not own real estate. There's compulsory HIV testing for foreigners - with instant deportation if the test is positive. There's racial stereotyping - all westerners are drunkards, western women are sluts and so on. In India I was grabbed by the shirt and pulled backwards and forwards during a heated argument between airport security and airline officials. They didn't like me going through to the airline office even though I was crew, in uniform and wearing a security badge. In India, white guys don't operate domestic, so I wasn't supposed to go airside at the domestic terminal. That's life. If you leave the comfort of home you have to be able to tolerate discrimination. There's no point in complaining, its just a part of human nature to distrust those who are different from ourselves in some way.
You can't change it, so you learn to live with it.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
As a long term expat, I have learned to live with discriminatory practices that aren't tolerated in UK; I hardly notice them now, they aren't really important. In many places it is taken for granted that foreigners may not own real estate. There's compulsory HIV testing for foreigners - with instant deportation if the test is positive. There's racial stereotyping - all westerners are drunkards, western women are sluts and so on. In India I was grabbed by the shirt and pulled backwards and forwards during a heated argument between airport security and airline officials. They didn't like me going through to the airline office even though I was crew, in uniform and wearing a security badge. In India, white guys don't operate domestic, so I wasn't supposed to go airside at the domestic terminal. That's life. If you leave the comfort of home you have to be able to tolerate discrimination. There's no point in complaining, its just a part of human nature to distrust those who are different from ourselves in some way.
You can't change it, so you learn to live with it.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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When working in the UK IT business, I was always pleasantly surprised by the lack of racist remarks behind their backs towards the ethnic minority pilots in the company. A decent person was regarded as just that irrespective of colour religion or whatever.
I think that this attitude is in part due to the avoidance of "positive discrimination" in the UK. You know that a person got the job because he or she went through the same hoops as yourself and didn't get it to fill some quota.
I think that this attitude is in part due to the avoidance of "positive discrimination" in the UK. You know that a person got the job because he or she went through the same hoops as yourself and didn't get it to fill some quota.
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Thx 4 ur posts guys.
I believe the discussion veered off a bit. Sure - Nationals before Expats. All the logic is there.
I cannot agree more wit BlkS.
When I started this thread I wanted to have comments of people being discriminated against by the Native English Speakers who have a stranglehold on most airline expat jobs outside EU and USA and any other comments.
I know about "The Theatre". If u dont learn to play d right way youll never succeed at an expat job. As I mentioned above I believe that Ive learned my part, Im on my 3rd expat job in 9 years.
But it is so frustrating to know that you have to play by rules set along certain historical, cultural and economic stereotypes...
Hope Im not braking d rules PP Pop.
Ex:
On an assesment sim for B767 with Eva an American instructor wit mil bakgr walks in and his first line to d 2 candidates (one from Tukey one from Eastern Europe) is "Someone's stinking here"....
I believe the discussion veered off a bit. Sure - Nationals before Expats. All the logic is there.
I cannot agree more wit BlkS.
When I started this thread I wanted to have comments of people being discriminated against by the Native English Speakers who have a stranglehold on most airline expat jobs outside EU and USA and any other comments.
I know about "The Theatre". If u dont learn to play d right way youll never succeed at an expat job. As I mentioned above I believe that Ive learned my part, Im on my 3rd expat job in 9 years.
But it is so frustrating to know that you have to play by rules set along certain historical, cultural and economic stereotypes...
Hope Im not braking d rules PP Pop.
Ex:
On an assesment sim for B767 with Eva an American instructor wit mil bakgr walks in and his first line to d 2 candidates (one from Tukey one from Eastern Europe) is "Someone's stinking here"....
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Two things.
1. I don't think this is an appropriate thread for pprune
2. If you want to see discrimination, come and spend a few days in Saudi!!!
1. I don't think this is an appropriate thread for pprune
2. If you want to see discrimination, come and spend a few days in Saudi!!!
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swish young man - text talk don't work here. I can't understand what the hell you're trying to say......Surely you can't be into 3 jobs in 9 years because anyone of that generation will type proper english and not telephone talk !!!!!!!! You must still be a teenager
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I made it quite clear at the beginning of this thread that I would watch to see if racism or politics came in to the debate. It was fine for a time now we are starting to get techy. As in purr's post.
Just let us take a little look at this word discrimination - the title of this thread. Has anyone ever NOT come up against it in some form or another? I very much doubt it. It is now almost a fact of everyday life, and it probably will be for evermore as different cultures intermingle more and more.
The inevitable consequence is that it is difficult to accept. Fair enough, but it will not alter the fact that discrimination is with us, and it is here to stay. Problem is, the more it happens the more people get their backs up. Again, it is inevitable.
As far as the airline industry is concerned. We see the problem of nationals being chosen above others while the "others" feel left out. While nationals feel that their jobs are theirs alone. That happens in the UK too. As some on this thread have said. There is some very bad examples of discrimination.
I can see no reason why the thread should not continue, but please keep your angst and your opinions under control. Advice or help for those who experience a problem is what is needed.
PPP
Just let us take a little look at this word discrimination - the title of this thread. Has anyone ever NOT come up against it in some form or another? I very much doubt it. It is now almost a fact of everyday life, and it probably will be for evermore as different cultures intermingle more and more.
The inevitable consequence is that it is difficult to accept. Fair enough, but it will not alter the fact that discrimination is with us, and it is here to stay. Problem is, the more it happens the more people get their backs up. Again, it is inevitable.
As far as the airline industry is concerned. We see the problem of nationals being chosen above others while the "others" feel left out. While nationals feel that their jobs are theirs alone. That happens in the UK too. As some on this thread have said. There is some very bad examples of discrimination.
I can see no reason why the thread should not continue, but please keep your angst and your opinions under control. Advice or help for those who experience a problem is what is needed.
PPP
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Discrimination???
Having been pilloried in the past by the self - righteous 'politically correct' brigade I feel my comments in the past are still relevant. I and all of my peers (I sincerely hope) have no animosity, dislike, racial hatred or any other prejudices/bigotry against anyone of a different ethnic background in our profession, but I do certainly feel a great deal of frustration when I can't get a job in my own country because a lot of the posts are occupied by pilots from overseas. I am sure that any form of protectionism could be misconstrued as discriminatory when you are on the outside but surely charity must begin at home. There is no excuse now or ever to judge on skin colour or ethnic background but we have to look after our own first, before consigning them to the dole in favour of a probable short term visitor.
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White Knight
Your remark is not even worth my time...
Sorry, but I believe anybody, who's intelligent enough to post on this web-site, should be able to read my "text talk". Unfortunately I might not be intelligent enough to keep reading inputs into the Tech Log (back at the company I fly for) by Brits, Ozzies, Kiwis, Zims, etc with appalling spelling and grammar mistakes…
I might be different but I’ve been at least to an English Grammar School!
Sorry, but I believe anybody, who's intelligent enough to post on this web-site, should be able to read my "text talk". Unfortunately I might not be intelligent enough to keep reading inputs into the Tech Log (back at the company I fly for) by Brits, Ozzies, Kiwis, Zims, etc with appalling spelling and grammar mistakes…
I might be different but I’ve been at least to an English Grammar School!
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Swish
I went to an english private school, and I have trouble trying to understand my daughters text talk. They ARE teenagers.
Do us a favour and grow up......................
I went to an english private school, and I have trouble trying to understand my daughters text talk. They ARE teenagers.
Do us a favour and grow up......................
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I might be different but I’ve been at least to an English Grammar School!
Unfortunately I might not be intelligent enough to keep reading inputs into the Tech Log (back at the company I fly for) by Brits, Ozzies, Kiwis, Zims, etc with appalling spelling and grammar mistakes…
PP
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I think we have discovered the reasons behind Swish's "discrimination". More likely a reaction to a certain attitude being displayed!!!
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COOL DOWN
Guys, we r not in a grammar contest.
Nor, I believe, trying to outwit d other person.
I feel at ease writing like dis.
I know a lot of fellow countrymen from my generation (just about 40sh) who r in different trades and places around d world. Surgeons, computer wizards, artists. They have achieved a lot thanks to a welcome, corresponding to their capabilities.
Unfortunately I, in my trade, am the only one dat have experienced so much discrimination when looking for a job, on the job and by a certain group of people on d job. And earned whatever position with so much hardship! But I don’t blame KLM if dey r conducting interviews in Dutch. I believe it is each airline’s own business to adopt whatever policy. And I believe any Caucasian can get a fair knowledge of a European language in 6 months if he’s dedicated to doing dat interview…
I was trying to say that I wonder why Native English Speakers r in a different league from everybody else in a lot of companies with predominantly expat flight deck crew. My experience is from d Middle East and the Pacific Rim. I know guys from Mexico, Quebec, Germany, Switzerland and France who have more or less the same experience like me. There was a company that used to pay Americans almost double than anyone else until they learned the hard way that Gods also make mistakes (had to write off an almost brand new B744).
Don’t b offended. If you don’t like dis thread just disregard it and let someone else who wants to share his thoughts, do it. Don’t fill it with useless junk.
Cheers!
Nor, I believe, trying to outwit d other person.
I feel at ease writing like dis.
I know a lot of fellow countrymen from my generation (just about 40sh) who r in different trades and places around d world. Surgeons, computer wizards, artists. They have achieved a lot thanks to a welcome, corresponding to their capabilities.
Unfortunately I, in my trade, am the only one dat have experienced so much discrimination when looking for a job, on the job and by a certain group of people on d job. And earned whatever position with so much hardship! But I don’t blame KLM if dey r conducting interviews in Dutch. I believe it is each airline’s own business to adopt whatever policy. And I believe any Caucasian can get a fair knowledge of a European language in 6 months if he’s dedicated to doing dat interview…
I was trying to say that I wonder why Native English Speakers r in a different league from everybody else in a lot of companies with predominantly expat flight deck crew. My experience is from d Middle East and the Pacific Rim. I know guys from Mexico, Quebec, Germany, Switzerland and France who have more or less the same experience like me. There was a company that used to pay Americans almost double than anyone else until they learned the hard way that Gods also make mistakes (had to write off an almost brand new B744).
Don’t b offended. If you don’t like dis thread just disregard it and let someone else who wants to share his thoughts, do it. Don’t fill it with useless junk.
Cheers!