View Poll Results: should british companies be looking to employ more british pilots
YES
64
40.51%
NO
39
24.68%
DON\\\'T CARE
55
34.81%
Voters: 158. This poll is closed
Foreign Pilots, etc.,
Union Goon
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Im just curious how many complainers are actually members of Balpa?
I have heard a lot of guys complain about foreign pilots but then when asked if they are in the union (who else will do something about it) they just start muttering
I thank each and every non member for my three years flying a G reg jet around Europe from Manchester and Stanstead. Usually the non members were the biggest complainers. Interestingly enough they were doing the least about it.
Wanna keep british flying jobs for british citizens? First step is to strengthen your union and speak with one voice.
Cheers
Wino (voted chief recruiter for Balpa at that ASH Bash)
I have heard a lot of guys complain about foreign pilots but then when asked if they are in the union (who else will do something about it) they just start muttering
I thank each and every non member for my three years flying a G reg jet around Europe from Manchester and Stanstead. Usually the non members were the biggest complainers. Interestingly enough they were doing the least about it.
Wanna keep british flying jobs for british citizens? First step is to strengthen your union and speak with one voice.
Cheers
Wino (voted chief recruiter for Balpa at that ASH Bash)
e28 driver
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Actually wino that's how this all started, Pipistrelle asked one of the candidates in the BALPA General Secretary election what he planned to do about all these 'misemployed' foreign pilots if he was elected and I asked him if he would represent me equally as a 'foreign' member living and working legally in Britain. The answer was that 'membership is open to all flying on U.K. licenses or involved in British commercial flying'- nationality is not an issue...
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My goodness what a can of worms I appear to have opened, let me reply in a non political way; - JW411 are you tone deaf?? TDKmk2 you continue to fog the issue with a quasi-political slant, firstly you you raise the spectre of xenophobia - what is the immigration policy in your own country (or ex-country)?? secondly,Your continual references to the comment I raised seems to be supported by the straw poll I posted, it was not my intention to make an emotive issue over our union and its' ability to safeguard the job security of the indigenous population of pilots. Your repeated references to membership of the bnp are at best misguided, certainly in my case. The issue of marriage is a particularly poor example to discuss as it is common knowledge that it has/is being used & abused as a back door into this country.
Once again I state that I think a mixture of new blood into any organisation is healthy, I believe that our overseas brethern should have a free place here but I also believe that our unemployed guys here have first call to work in their own country. Possibly the more politically correct amongst those who disagree with me would also like to see the denizens of the sangatte camp given free rein to enter the country.
Once again I state that I think a mixture of new blood into any organisation is healthy, I believe that our overseas brethern should have a free place here but I also believe that our unemployed guys here have first call to work in their own country. Possibly the more politically correct amongst those who disagree with me would also like to see the denizens of the sangatte camp given free rein to enter the country.
Factual note: Switzerland joined the UN a couple of months ago.
Second factual note: It is absolutely, totally legally impossible not to accept EU citizens as workers. It is also illegal (for reasons of UK law, not EU regts) to favour any group over another, so long as the person in question have a work permit and is better qualified than the other candidates. It should be obvious that choosing people by their professional ability ensures getting the best people; any other criterion is inefficient, quite apart from being morally wrong.
Second factual note: It is absolutely, totally legally impossible not to accept EU citizens as workers. It is also illegal (for reasons of UK law, not EU regts) to favour any group over another, so long as the person in question have a work permit and is better qualified than the other candidates. It should be obvious that choosing people by their professional ability ensures getting the best people; any other criterion is inefficient, quite apart from being morally wrong.
Props are for boats!
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Globalisation is the word of the moment . G8 , CHOGM and all that, I am refering to ofcourse.
But Globalisation , reaching aviation, is a far cry. ICAO is a toothless Tiger.
Take me for example. I have an Australian ATPL, USATP, and New Zealand ATP, I also have a British Passport. Now for me to fly in Europe requires $25000 USD and six months free time to convert my licence, the fact that my other licences are "ICAO" means nothing to the JAR.
I applaud however the JAR formation, the fact that it excludes the rest of the worlds qualifications and not vice versa, is puzling!!
Anyway I am traveling to the U.K to get an CAA appraisel of my quals will cost me 75 pounds, I HOPE ITS WORTH IT!
But Globalisation , reaching aviation, is a far cry. ICAO is a toothless Tiger.
Take me for example. I have an Australian ATPL, USATP, and New Zealand ATP, I also have a British Passport. Now for me to fly in Europe requires $25000 USD and six months free time to convert my licence, the fact that my other licences are "ICAO" means nothing to the JAR.
I applaud however the JAR formation, the fact that it excludes the rest of the worlds qualifications and not vice versa, is puzling!!
Anyway I am traveling to the U.K to get an CAA appraisel of my quals will cost me 75 pounds, I HOPE ITS WORTH IT!
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Unlike you power lever, who's a bit slow off the mark. Steamchicken is the voice of reason here tho and Pipistrelle immigration IS a political issue if you hadn't noticed. If you didn't want to raise an emotive issue then why the emotive comments in the first place? You've made it clear that Flagging out isn't the only area in which you feel that people without British passports are doing work that unemployed British people should be doing. You were the one that suggested (in the BALPA GS thread) that the statutes are letting to many 'foreigners' in and therefore I suggested that a political party such as the BNP might be a good starting point to work toward changing them.
And the immigration policy of my ex country is completely irrelevant, although I will say that generally speaking the people are amounst the most bigotted and xenophobic of any people anywhere - but that's what you get from an Island mentality. If you want to see an indigenous population that's been comprehensively shafted it's all down there for the world to see. I'm ashamed of what the country I was born in did and in some ways continues to do. Think I've said enough.
And the immigration policy of my ex country is completely irrelevant, although I will say that generally speaking the people are amounst the most bigotted and xenophobic of any people anywhere - but that's what you get from an Island mentality. If you want to see an indigenous population that's been comprehensively shafted it's all down there for the world to see. I'm ashamed of what the country I was born in did and in some ways continues to do. Think I've said enough.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Pipistrelle,
My witterings take the general direction that my company employs 5 UK pilots. I was just wondering if we should have given scandinavian pilots (quite a lot of them unemployed - and apparently more to come
) the first right to work here - because then you would be 5 UK pilots up that would be looking for jobs - in the UK, of course.
I would be very interested to see the following numbers:
1) UK pilots working for non-UK companies
2) Nun-UK pilots working for UK companies
This would give us a quick indicator on who stood to lose the most if your suggestions were used in real life.
As the gentelman that my wife does not think I am, I will start:
5 UK pilots in non-UK business!
Brgds,
Empty
PS. Using the WTF acronym will not - contrary to what most people expect - disguise your inability to understand metaphors
My witterings take the general direction that my company employs 5 UK pilots. I was just wondering if we should have given scandinavian pilots (quite a lot of them unemployed - and apparently more to come
) the first right to work here - because then you would be 5 UK pilots up that would be looking for jobs - in the UK, of course.I would be very interested to see the following numbers:
1) UK pilots working for non-UK companies
2) Nun-UK pilots working for UK companies
This would give us a quick indicator on who stood to lose the most if your suggestions were used in real life.
As the gentelman that my wife does not think I am, I will start:
5 UK pilots in non-UK business!
Brgds,
Empty
PS. Using the WTF acronym will not - contrary to what most people expect - disguise your inability to understand metaphors
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The issue is not UK pilots working abroad, nor foreign pilots employed in the UK.
The issue is of non-EU pilots working in the UK when UK pilots are barred from working in the respective countries.
The issue is also about whether, since the UK has many EU citizens working as pilots, the rest of the EU raises artificial barriers to UK pilots in contravention of EU law.
It is, further, whether the UK actively encourages (by means of tax breaks, relaxing of roster rules etc.) airlines to recruit abroad when there are significant numbers of UK pilots looking for work.
The issue is whether the UK government is prepared to put its money where its (fairly considerable) mouth is.
The issue is of non-EU pilots working in the UK when UK pilots are barred from working in the respective countries.
The issue is also about whether, since the UK has many EU citizens working as pilots, the rest of the EU raises artificial barriers to UK pilots in contravention of EU law.
It is, further, whether the UK actively encourages (by means of tax breaks, relaxing of roster rules etc.) airlines to recruit abroad when there are significant numbers of UK pilots looking for work.
The issue is whether the UK government is prepared to put its money where its (fairly considerable) mouth is.
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I read it all and I am amazed by certain comments that some people put here !!
I would like to enlighten a few points :
1. Someone mentioned the fact that many airlines in Britain are owned by foreign countries. I can start a list for you :
BRITANNIA owned by a German Tour Operator,
KLM UK owned by KLM,
Easyjet created by a Greek citizen...
So should Easyjet recruit only Greek Pilots then ????
Or Britannia only German pilots ???????
2. Some UK airline have bases abroad and fly internal routes in other countries (ex : Easyjet in GVA). Should those airlines recruit local people in priority ?
3. About the comment concerning Passengers who supposingly don't like PA with people "with accents" (There are so many accents in the UK anyway). What do you think of British airlines operating internal flights in France, and the "poor" passengers who have to listen to "horrible" PA in english ? (Ex : Buzz, Easyjet...)
4. A lot of airline in the UK operates for Foreign airlines. And therefore are offered business by (dirty ) foreign country (Ex : British European for Air France).
5. If more Brits would bother with speaking other langages, they would probably get more jobs with the like of AF, LH or IB... But unfortunatelly, very few are fluent enough to even consider applying in any of the mentioned countries. Check for example the Air France site, and it is clearly said that to apply, you must be EU Citizen AND speak fluently french
Check http://www.airfrance.com/double6/FR/...?OpenDocument#
(for those speaking french of course).
6. Why airlines are recruiting foreigners ? Because we are in common market in EU and Jobs have to be available to whoever qualify for the Job. There are many Brits working abroad in Europe in every job sectors and it is the same in the airline industry...
And just to wind up some of the people involved in this thread :
I am a (horrible) foreigner from another EU country, I have a UK ATPL and fly for a BRITISH airline. I was SPONSORED by this airline after going through selections against mainly BRITISH people. I have never flown in my country of origin...
Just a little add-on, one of the first action of A. Hitler when he got in power was to secure jobs for Germans only (pure ones)... just a thought...
I would like to enlighten a few points :
1. Someone mentioned the fact that many airlines in Britain are owned by foreign countries. I can start a list for you :
BRITANNIA owned by a German Tour Operator,
KLM UK owned by KLM,
Easyjet created by a Greek citizen...
So should Easyjet recruit only Greek Pilots then ????
Or Britannia only German pilots ???????
2. Some UK airline have bases abroad and fly internal routes in other countries (ex : Easyjet in GVA). Should those airlines recruit local people in priority ?
3. About the comment concerning Passengers who supposingly don't like PA with people "with accents" (There are so many accents in the UK anyway). What do you think of British airlines operating internal flights in France, and the "poor" passengers who have to listen to "horrible" PA in english ? (Ex : Buzz, Easyjet...)
4. A lot of airline in the UK operates for Foreign airlines. And therefore are offered business by (dirty
) foreign country (Ex : British European for Air France).5. If more Brits would bother with speaking other langages, they would probably get more jobs with the like of AF, LH or IB... But unfortunatelly, very few are fluent enough to even consider applying in any of the mentioned countries. Check for example the Air France site, and it is clearly said that to apply, you must be EU Citizen AND speak fluently french
Check http://www.airfrance.com/double6/FR/...?OpenDocument#
(for those speaking french of course).
6. Why airlines are recruiting foreigners ? Because we are in common market in EU and Jobs have to be available to whoever qualify for the Job. There are many Brits working abroad in Europe in every job sectors and it is the same in the airline industry...
And just to wind up some of the people involved in this thread :
I am a (horrible) foreigner from another EU country, I have a UK ATPL and fly for a BRITISH airline. I was SPONSORED by this airline after going through selections against mainly BRITISH people. I have never flown in my country of origin...
Just a little add-on, one of the first action of A. Hitler when he got in power was to secure jobs for Germans only (pure ones)... just a thought...
Last edited by Dudley; 20th May 2002 at 11:58.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
I feel that I have to step in to this discussion as there a few people posting on here who are either extremely naive or so poorly educated to be bordering on extreme xenophobic. To suggest that you can tell who is a 'foreign' pilot just because of his or her accent on the airwaves is just plain pathetic.
There are many pilots of 'foreign' birth who are British or EU citizens by various rights and there are even UK born pilots who speak with a foreign accent because of where they were brought up. Did you know that wherever you were living and whatever accent you were listening to when you were in your mid to late teens is the accent you tend to keep for the rest of your life?
The title and some of the discussion being raised in this topic show poorly thought out argument. To me it smacks of ultra right wing politics and is just a short step away from demanding to know what ones religious or ethnic background is before accepting that someone deserves a job as a pilot. I find it very worrying that there are people who can still make this argument in this day and age and embarrasing that they should be pilots with a professional license.
On the one hand I can understand the frustration of a newly licenced pilot with a frozen ATPL trying to secure a job but to launch into this kind of debate with poorly researched data and use terminology such as
"...passengers are not always happy to hear a foreigner making a PA especially if the pilot almost needs the services of a translator..." or even worse "...myself and the skipper find ourselves playing a game of find the brits on the R/T flying for British airlines... Most days it is quite shocking how many are from around the world!..." is just plain xenophobia. If you are going to debate the issue of being British with a CAA ATPL but unable to get a job for a British airline becuase they have WET LEASED an aircraft from outside the EU then fine, but realise that it is because of a largely ignorant and poorly informed section of the CAA and the civil service that is at fault and assisted by airlines that care far more for their shareholders than their pilots.
Can we cut the 'facade' of indignant outrage at 'Johnny foreigner' has taken my rightful job and stick to the real issue of flagging out. It is scary knowing there are pilots out there who actually play 'spot the foreigner flying for a Brit airline'. I would be ashamed to admit to such extreme attitudes and I think you should be too. Here's a hint: Don't admit to this attitude if you are applying for a job with an airline because if you have it may be the reason why you haven't secured that dream job in the first place!
There are many pilots of 'foreign' birth who are British or EU citizens by various rights and there are even UK born pilots who speak with a foreign accent because of where they were brought up. Did you know that wherever you were living and whatever accent you were listening to when you were in your mid to late teens is the accent you tend to keep for the rest of your life?
The title and some of the discussion being raised in this topic show poorly thought out argument. To me it smacks of ultra right wing politics and is just a short step away from demanding to know what ones religious or ethnic background is before accepting that someone deserves a job as a pilot. I find it very worrying that there are people who can still make this argument in this day and age and embarrasing that they should be pilots with a professional license.
On the one hand I can understand the frustration of a newly licenced pilot with a frozen ATPL trying to secure a job but to launch into this kind of debate with poorly researched data and use terminology such as
"...passengers are not always happy to hear a foreigner making a PA especially if the pilot almost needs the services of a translator..." or even worse "...myself and the skipper find ourselves playing a game of find the brits on the R/T flying for British airlines... Most days it is quite shocking how many are from around the world!..." is just plain xenophobia. If you are going to debate the issue of being British with a CAA ATPL but unable to get a job for a British airline becuase they have WET LEASED an aircraft from outside the EU then fine, but realise that it is because of a largely ignorant and poorly informed section of the CAA and the civil service that is at fault and assisted by airlines that care far more for their shareholders than their pilots.
Can we cut the 'facade' of indignant outrage at 'Johnny foreigner' has taken my rightful job and stick to the real issue of flagging out. It is scary knowing there are pilots out there who actually play 'spot the foreigner flying for a Brit airline'. I would be ashamed to admit to such extreme attitudes and I think you should be too. Here's a hint: Don't admit to this attitude if you are applying for a job with an airline because if you have it may be the reason why you haven't secured that dream job in the first place!
Capt PPRuNe:
Well said Danny; I could not agree with you more. I'm afraid that a few of the posters on this thread could best be described as inexperienced sciolists. It makes me shudder to think that their CVs might just be in the company in-tray!
Well said Danny; I could not agree with you more. I'm afraid that a few of the posters on this thread could best be described as inexperienced sciolists. It makes me shudder to think that their CVs might just be in the company in-tray!
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Captain Stable, I stand corrected as far as that part of the debate goes :o - however found that some of the remarks made in the debate took the "other" direction.
Danny - said it all!
Brgds,
Empty
Danny - said it all!
Brgds,
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I'm an Aussie with UK ATPL working in the UK for a British company. I can do this as I have a permanent resident visa issued on the grounds of marriage, not my chosen profession. I've been married 10 years and have 2 British/Australian kids, have been a member of BALPA since I obtained my licence here and pay my taxes. Thank you to the sensible people out there for your support on this 'thread' and to the others, well the less said about you the better.
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I do agree that this thread has gone too far down a rather unpleasant route, however the use of the X-word is just OTT, nowhere did I see any reference to a "morbid dislike of foreigners" the only extreme dislikes I saw expressed were those which denigrate anyone who expressed any concerns about the open door to our job market. The thread when posted was never intended to cause insult or offence, I apologise if that was not the case but it is a pretty sad sign of the times when an open question cannot be raised without the politically correct brigade tainting it with their own form of closed mindedness.
Once again my original point asking if british companies should look more to the home pilot pool still stands..
Once again my original point asking if british companies should look more to the home pilot pool still stands..
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Pipistrelle, what exactly is your definition of the 'home pilot pool' and be VERY careful when you answer that. This is not just about political correctness, or even offending my sensitivities as a 'foreigner'. So come on, put your money where your mouth is...
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Thanks Capt. pprune, I am one of those you have just cited in your example, so Power Lever, I am just a little curious as to what game you play in the TMA when your skipper is not British...