Foreign Pilots, etc.,

[pipistrelle]

Dear TDKmk2, I think you are missing my point completely,as John F. and I have said the main objection I have is 'flagging out' however I have spoken to several (unemployed) colleagues and they do firmly believe that they should have priority over foreigners. In my own experience it is not easy to get a job in europe as they apply the dictum that a they will ony look outside their own borders if there is not a suitable candidate within. Another point I have heard mentioned - from a few people, is that passengers are not always happy to hear a foreigner making a PA especially if the pilot almost needs the services of a translator. This thread was started as a question to John F. to find out what Balpa was going to do about securing my career and that of many of my colleagues, as I said altruism won't pay the mortgage and charity must begin at home or maybe we should all be clamouring to go into the euro/open border/ pan european federation. Don't take it personally ,it is the system which needs to be looked at.
what do other people think about this issue, should british companies be looking more within their own borders for pilots to fly british a/c? YES - NO - DON'T CARE

[Al E. Vator]

Perhaps not a popular reply but sometimes, just sometimes people don't get the jobs for a reason. They may not bee too good!

[JW411]

pipistrelle:

"...that they should have priority over foreigners"

This is an extremely dangerous attitude to take. I would suggest that there are far more British pilots flying for overseas airlines than vice versa (SQ, CX and EK just for example).

I have personally flown for airlines in the USA, the Far East, the Pacific and am currently flying for a European airline. I think British pilots have traditionally gone wherever the work is.

We have about 15 different nationalities in my present company and we ALL get on very well with each other.

I do however agree that the practice of flagging-in should be stopped.

[Meatbomber]

[q]I think British pilots have traditionally gone wherever the work is.[/q]

well i guess pilots from other countries are doing that too no ?

[maxy101]

Seems to me that there are two issues here. Should European pilots have equal opportunities to work in the UK? Of course, because we can work in their countries. "<I know that there is very little chance of getting a job with the likes of AF, LH, IB, etc, but that is not the point>. However, the likes of wet leasing jobs out to non EU pilots just because its cheaper or easier is just not on. Studi, How would you feel if LH employed a non EU citizen instead of you?

[jedy]

Another Brit complaining about foreign pilots. If only all Brits working overseas come to UK to fly I don´t think there will be any jobs for you my friend. Anyway do you know how many foreign airlines with bases in the UK are at the moment, I think they should be kicked out to, jeahh! and then will see where is that going to leave you.
I can only sujest you learn another language and get a job somewhere else although that may be a pretty difficult task for you, so better get a job in Mc Donalds because with your attitude don´t think you´ll go far in this industry and live all the people who worked hard and spend all our money to fund your CAA fly aeroplanes.
Maybe you are just not cut out for this job my friend.

P.S. Speaking two languages is a good thing and very handly when you go overseas (certainly my company thinks so) and my PAs are just fantastic and if you don´t like them just up.....

Good luck with your job hunting and remember not hard feelings my friend.

[pipistrelle]

I accept all the various reasons/opinions expressed on this subject especially al e vator's very relevant point about not accepting someone if they are not good enough just because they are a national of whatever country. Studi I wish you luck, your comment on european integration is also pertinent but how many of the companies 'flagging out' are employing europeans?JW411 I'm sure that there is some connection with SQ & CX on a colonial basis and their ethos of hiring foreign pilots, when did they open their first flight training school? There already exists a situation in this country, of employing locals over 'outsiders' namely the channel islands - rights of residency etc.,
I know that other professions (e.g. medicine/nursing) actively seek qualified staff overseas but that is mainly because there are not enough personnel here to fill the shortfall
Please do not misconstrue comments as racist /nationalist in any way, that is not my intention, it is just that I know many people desperately looking for a chance to be employed in their own country. Flagging out might be a short term solution to some of the seasonal operators problems but not to our unemployed colleagues.

[TDK mk2]

Pipistrelle, I'm aware of the main issue but am more concerned about this chip you seem to have on your shoulder regarding people with foreign accents. You seem to suggest that they are somehow less worthy of a job than a British born person.

Three examples in my own company:

1. An American who is married to a British Citizen

2. A Frenchman who did a CAP509 here and has never worked as a pilot in France and indeed doesn't even have a french licence

3. Myself, an Antipodean who has been paying taxes into HM exchequer for the best part of 10 years which is most of my adult life and who spent the best part of £30,000 on flying training in THIS country before securing myself a hard earned job. HM Home Office afford me indefinate leave to work and remain here on the basis of ancestery and I will eventually hold a British passport.

Are you seriously going to tell any one of us that we are any less worthy of our jobs now that there are British pilots out of work than we were when times were good???

The principle of marriage should provide for the couple to live and work freely in either of their citizens countries, or would you disaggree with that?

Like it or not Britain is part of the European Community and increasingly global economy. The EU provides not only the benefits of free trade but also free movement and work rights of it's member states citizens - that's the law.

To take up JW411s point, historically the U.K. licence has been recognised everywhere and British pilots have and still provide their services to operations around the world and particularly in former colonies.

My point is that you can't just assume that just because someone speaks with a foriegn accent that they have less rights than a 'local' person. There's a word for attitudes like that and it starts with X. Britain is supposed to be a tolerant and decent society and if you believe that immigration policy has admitted too many like me and my 'foreign' colleagues then maybe you should go and join up with one of those extreme right wing minority parties and swap ideas with like minded people because I think you'll find that most decent and fairminded folk wouldn't agree once they'd heard the facts as opposed to your anti 'foreign' soundbites...

[pipistrelle]

Dear Jedy,
Oh dear I seem to have struck a raw nerve. I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us with the number of foreign airlines that are in the UK, is it relevant to the topic??
I do speak two languages in addition to english, I do have a job and I have been in aviation for over twenty five years - Mcdonalds - is that the end result of your national pastime?? and finally, if your ' Just fantastic' PA's are any thing like your written text then I'm sure they are very entertaining

[JW411]

studi:

I note that as a Swiss national you are hoping for a career with Lufthansa. I wish you well in your endeavours.

I wonder if your prospects might be better if Switzerland was to join the European Community or, for that matter, the United Nations?

[power lever]

Would most of you please pull your head out from under the sand !!!

I am a brit working for a british company in Britian, do you have any idea how many aussies, kiwis, south africians etc are working in my company and others???????

When I am at work, flying through the London TMA myself and the skipper find ourselves playing a game of find the brits on the R/T flying for British airlines... Most days it is quite shocking how many are from around the world!!!!!!

Most of you do-gooders won't like this reply but feel free to have a go as I really don't care, because I know most of my freinds and co-workers in this industry feel the same>>>>>>>>

[TDK mk2]

Nice one power lever, glad you and your Captain have the humility to rise above it and find the humourous side - maybe one day we can have a good old knees up old chap and celebrate the British empire. I'll talk with a spoon in my mouth and you can take the p!ss out of my antipodean vernecular! Nothing like a bit of national pride is there...?

[Dreamweaver]

Well said Power Lever. You are not politically correct, but you are correct. We also have fun on the radio...nuff said.

I'm afraid we live in a very tolerant society. No beef with the experienced type rated lads; just think its a bit off when lots of entry level jobs are taken by foreigners (another dirty word) when 100's of chaps are watching 'supermaket sweep' at home. The 'they probably are not good enough' line is somewhat flawed.


DW

[TDK mk2]

Bad luck DW, I took my chances and parted with my hardearned, sweated my IRT, then trod water for 18 months waiting for my chance to play with the big boys. Red passport or no I've paid my dues over here and don't take kindly to folk suggesting that someone else deserves my job more than me just because I was born on the wrong side of the equator.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if HM Home Office says that 'foreigners' like me can work here then we have the same employment rights as you 'local types' - that's the law. If you don't like it then go join the BNP...

[Empty Cruise]

OK, then...

I'll see your protectionism and raise you by a little xenofobia...

Card? Not? OK - let's trade pilots!

I've got 5 british pilots. Now show me some scandihooligans!

Sorry, better luck next time. Wanna play again?

Brgds,
Empty

[Dreamweaver]

Little reactionary arn't we TDK mk2, 'Thats the law - if you don't like it, join the BNP.' Good to know the psychometrics are working as well as ever.

Just expressing an opinion old bean , its a free country - THATS the law, if you don't like it you can .... ..... post a reply

[JW411]

Is this not truly pathetic? Now we have children lose in the London TMA counting foreign accents instead of listening to the important things that are going on around them!

Grow up for goodness sake.

[power lever]

JW411

Children in the london tma!!!!
No, I am good at my job, I can multi task you know.

Wind your neck in you pratt.:o

[Fidel]

Foreign Pilots

Jobs are scarce for everyone, employers can not be racist, any opportunity is open for everybody who has the correct qualifications, so pull your necks in and accept the multinational status of the airline industry.
The locking of flightdeck doors must be getting to some of the knob heads out there, breath easy.

[TDK mk2]

Fair enough Dreamweaver! I'm sure you're a sweet guy really and would know when to keep your opinions to yourself. However there are a few out there with a chip on their shoulder who aren't quite as diplomatic, and fall neatly into the catagory covered in the 'captains from hell' thread. By the way power lever, how's the job hunting coming along? Good thing you're so good at your job with those dodgy skippers making up their own SOPs at your company...