COULD you land a passenger jet (if you ONLY hold a PPL)???
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Given my knowledge base. Aircraft/avionics tech of about 20 yrs exp, flight simmer, and 4 years of flight deck observer experience. I would be completely lost on a sailboat, especially anything of any significant size. I did have some childhood lessons in about a 12 footer. The terminology, the anticipation of actions needed for safe operation would probably be my largest fear/failure.
A large jet aircraft has all the same systems, flight control's etc. They react differently to an extent but automation levels the playing Field. Understanding the theory of how the cockpit is set up by the MFGR of the aircraft you are flying helps (show me the button to push to achieve the result I want). There are several cockpits I could make my way around blindfolded. My company just about expects it of us during annual recurrent testing. My answer is no, the average flight simmer would not have much of a chance, at all.
A large jet aircraft has all the same systems, flight control's etc. They react differently to an extent but automation levels the playing Field. Understanding the theory of how the cockpit is set up by the MFGR of the aircraft you are flying helps (show me the button to push to achieve the result I want). There are several cockpits I could make my way around blindfolded. My company just about expects it of us during annual recurrent testing. My answer is no, the average flight simmer would not have much of a chance, at all.
About 5 years ago I had an hour in the 737 sim up in Yorkshire and as far as I recall managed reasonably OK. I certainly landed it on the runway (no doubt in zero wind conditions) without breaking anything although maintaining the correct speed and glide slope (albeit with a constant commentary as to what I should be doing, had me in a serious sweat.
The one thing that struck me was that it was fairly sluggish in roll but very sensitive in pitch, which prompted me to ask of the guy operating it if that was characteristic of the real 737. He told me he had only ever been a 125 pilot and so had no idea.
I don't know whether the thing had been made easier to handle to please the punters and give us a warm feeling (breathing on finger nails and rubbing them on lapels).
I guess I still don't know if I could land the real thing and assume I just flew a big benign version of MSFS (something I haven't touched in donkeys years).
I know that despite 40 years of various flying machines and 10 years as a PPL I'd find it pretty darned difficult to find the right height to flare a 747 or 380 and be anywhere near the right point on the runway.
Is there another accessible airliner simulator out there that somebody will let me play with for a fee ?
The one thing that struck me was that it was fairly sluggish in roll but very sensitive in pitch, which prompted me to ask of the guy operating it if that was characteristic of the real 737. He told me he had only ever been a 125 pilot and so had no idea.
I don't know whether the thing had been made easier to handle to please the punters and give us a warm feeling (breathing on finger nails and rubbing them on lapels).
I guess I still don't know if I could land the real thing and assume I just flew a big benign version of MSFS (something I haven't touched in donkeys years).
I know that despite 40 years of various flying machines and 10 years as a PPL I'd find it pretty darned difficult to find the right height to flare a 747 or 380 and be anywhere near the right point on the runway.
Is there another accessible airliner simulator out there that somebody will let me play with for a fee ?
Sriajuda, being a professional jet pilot and an amateur sailor, I would much rather land in a 30 knot crosswind than try and berth my yacht in a 10 knot crosswind! Yachts are far harder!
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In the sixties I too dreamed of what I'd do when the pilot's died at the controls.
I could see myself flying a Viscount or DC-6 in. I'd been in the jump seat plenty of times, but didn't have a clue of what was going on.
Remember how YOU felt when you went into the great big 172 or Warrior from the 152 or Tomahawk? Big?... a bit scary?
I got a go in a Friendship when I had 100 hours. The pilot was a mate of my father and the old man was the boss.
I was very wary of how big that F27 was and how I'd have to be gentle on the controlls with ALL those passengers down the back. I tried leveling out from the climb and got 400 feet high before I had her trimmed and oozing back down to cruise level. (For the those who get appalled at the captain allowing such a large discrepancy ... we were out in the middle of Australia well above ten thousand feet where only a rare airliner flew. and we were the only ones out there at that time.)
Five years later with 900 hours on the DC-3, I sat in the jump seat of a 727 and was totally lost as they landed. I said WOW! as we slowed down and the pilots said, "What?"
"So fast and so high when we touched down."
"Hell we were thinking it was so SLOW!"
Years later the change from DC-9 to 737 ... another somewhat initially tense time converting from a very similar performer to another.
Guys you have NO idea. It is VERY different when you are all by yourself and it's real... no reset button... ya die if you bugger it up.
It's a bit like making a speech. Smooth in front of the mirror, but blathering and stumbling when you are out there in front of a crowd.
I could see myself flying a Viscount or DC-6 in. I'd been in the jump seat plenty of times, but didn't have a clue of what was going on.
Remember how YOU felt when you went into the great big 172 or Warrior from the 152 or Tomahawk? Big?... a bit scary?
I got a go in a Friendship when I had 100 hours. The pilot was a mate of my father and the old man was the boss.
I was very wary of how big that F27 was and how I'd have to be gentle on the controlls with ALL those passengers down the back. I tried leveling out from the climb and got 400 feet high before I had her trimmed and oozing back down to cruise level. (For the those who get appalled at the captain allowing such a large discrepancy ... we were out in the middle of Australia well above ten thousand feet where only a rare airliner flew. and we were the only ones out there at that time.)
Five years later with 900 hours on the DC-3, I sat in the jump seat of a 727 and was totally lost as they landed. I said WOW! as we slowed down and the pilots said, "What?"
"So fast and so high when we touched down."
"Hell we were thinking it was so SLOW!"
Years later the change from DC-9 to 737 ... another somewhat initially tense time converting from a very similar performer to another.
Guys you have NO idea. It is VERY different when you are all by yourself and it's real... no reset button... ya die if you bugger it up.
It's a bit like making a speech. Smooth in front of the mirror, but blathering and stumbling when you are out there in front of a crowd.
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Just to add to the debate I once had a job in a B737 sim introducing non-flyers to the joys of flying. Now the sim was not certified but the software controlling it was intended for instruction and, most importantly, it replicated the inertia of the real aircraft, something which MSFS and others of similar ilk do not do. It was used by several B737 endorsed pilots who commented on how close the simulator replicated the actual aircraft.
As a commercial pilot (not having flown anything larger than a C402) it took me a few hours in the sim to become used to the inertia, especially in turns and levelling off at a specified altitude. What was fascinating was how the clients coped. It was immediately apparent that those who fared worse were PPL holders. They could not get used to inertia (the weight was set around 62 tonnes) and over controlled setting up some great Dutch Rolls and this was despite a briefing where it was explained what would happen. I found the best were women with absolutely no flying experience, they not only listened but didn't have any attitude about the process. Those who had previous MSFS experience understood the FMS and how to interpret the panel immediately but again would struggle once the autopilot was off.
The owners of the business were kind enough to let me have a key to the business and I could use the sim on my own. As the thing was hooked into the internet we were able to load it with real-time weather and access the appropriate instrument charts for just about anywhere in the world on sidescreens that acted as an EFB. It was enormous fun. Now I just wish someone would let me fly the real thing.
As a commercial pilot (not having flown anything larger than a C402) it took me a few hours in the sim to become used to the inertia, especially in turns and levelling off at a specified altitude. What was fascinating was how the clients coped. It was immediately apparent that those who fared worse were PPL holders. They could not get used to inertia (the weight was set around 62 tonnes) and over controlled setting up some great Dutch Rolls and this was despite a briefing where it was explained what would happen. I found the best were women with absolutely no flying experience, they not only listened but didn't have any attitude about the process. Those who had previous MSFS experience understood the FMS and how to interpret the panel immediately but again would struggle once the autopilot was off.
The owners of the business were kind enough to let me have a key to the business and I could use the sim on my own. As the thing was hooked into the internet we were able to load it with real-time weather and access the appropriate instrument charts for just about anywhere in the world on sidescreens that acted as an EFB. It was enormous fun. Now I just wish someone would let me fly the real thing.
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Complete novice here but I for one have found this discussion useful.
As much as people wish to call this discussion a waste of time it is something that I (and I'm sure many others) have pondered, and even guiltily fantasised about while watching "Air-crash Investigation". Before reading this, having got my gliding wings, I would have fancied my chances but after reading I am now convinced otherwise.
So thank you.
But out of curiosity, what should a PPL/MSFS pilot do should they find themselves in such a situation? Take the 1:10000 chance of sticking a landing, or what, take her out to sea and berry her into the ocean somewhere out of harms way?
And I mean that as a genuine question.
Would hightailing it be the utilitarian thing to do?
As much as people wish to call this discussion a waste of time it is something that I (and I'm sure many others) have pondered, and even guiltily fantasised about while watching "Air-crash Investigation". Before reading this, having got my gliding wings, I would have fancied my chances but after reading I am now convinced otherwise.
So thank you.
But out of curiosity, what should a PPL/MSFS pilot do should they find themselves in such a situation? Take the 1:10000 chance of sticking a landing, or what, take her out to sea and berry her into the ocean somewhere out of harms way?
And I mean that as a genuine question.
Would hightailing it be the utilitarian thing to do?
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Slarty, if you know how to operate a radio which you should do with a PPL, then get on the radio and call for help. Most transport cat. aircraft can do an autoland and it doesn't have to be at an airport certified for such.
To my understanding 2 such approaches were conducted in Australia long before there was any airport certified for them. There is now, Melbourne, with another 2 to follow, Perth and Sydney.
The biggest problem for a PPL holder is getting the beast set up for a landing which really means starting from the cruise altitude. The FMS will tell you when it is time to start down but if you don't set the Mode Control Panel to a lower altitude then the aircraft will cruise on happily until it runs out of fuel (think Helios). Then the STAR and runway needs to be programmed into the FMS (and the inevitable discontinuity removed from the LEGS page) then it needs to be slowed up and flaps and gear extended. Then you need to know how to set the autopilot for autoland.
None of it is difficult when you know how and it is possible to talk someone through the steps and what they have to do once the beastie is on the ground. However, throw in weather problems (say a crosswind and/or miserable vision etc) and it just keeps getting more difficult.
At the end of the day though, any pilot in such a situation should be prepared to give it a go rather than face the inevitable crash by not doing anything.
To my understanding 2 such approaches were conducted in Australia long before there was any airport certified for them. There is now, Melbourne, with another 2 to follow, Perth and Sydney.
The biggest problem for a PPL holder is getting the beast set up for a landing which really means starting from the cruise altitude. The FMS will tell you when it is time to start down but if you don't set the Mode Control Panel to a lower altitude then the aircraft will cruise on happily until it runs out of fuel (think Helios). Then the STAR and runway needs to be programmed into the FMS (and the inevitable discontinuity removed from the LEGS page) then it needs to be slowed up and flaps and gear extended. Then you need to know how to set the autopilot for autoland.
None of it is difficult when you know how and it is possible to talk someone through the steps and what they have to do once the beastie is on the ground. However, throw in weather problems (say a crosswind and/or miserable vision etc) and it just keeps getting more difficult.
At the end of the day though, any pilot in such a situation should be prepared to give it a go rather than face the inevitable crash by not doing anything.
Dave Gittins,
Flew a B737 sim at Dublin as the skills test part of an interview. I was current B757/767 and was being assessed by an agent for a B757 appointment in Switzerland. I found it very sensitive all round cf the B757.
In a later appointment, flying the B747, some of our new guys remarked on its inertia (They WERE ex Harrier
)
I don't know if it's been said before but it would be interesting to carry out a research project to see what the results would be of throwing a range of people into a sim and advising them from outside by 'radio'. One problem would be that, if the sim motion is on, you can damage the sim but, if it is not on, that detracts from the realism.
it was fairly sluggish in roll but very sensitive in pitch
In a later appointment, flying the B747, some of our new guys remarked on its inertia (They WERE ex Harrier
)I don't know if it's been said before but it would be interesting to carry out a research project to see what the results would be of throwing a range of people into a sim and advising them from outside by 'radio'. One problem would be that, if the sim motion is on, you can damage the sim but, if it is not on, that detracts from the realism.
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It is quite simple really, the only chance you have is with the autopilot and autothrottle engaged, listen to what your told and hope for goodness sake you don't press the wrong switch.
I fly a 737 classic, it has 500 switches in there, any takers!
If I were a passenger on a flight faced with this situation, I would hope that someone on the ground would be able to help me tune the nav boxes, set the aircraft up etc for a autos land. The simple thought of manual flying is not open to question, you would be too overloaded to deal with everything.
I fly a 737 classic, it has 500 switches in there, any takers!
If I were a passenger on a flight faced with this situation, I would hope that someone on the ground would be able to help me tune the nav boxes, set the aircraft up etc for a autos land. The simple thought of manual flying is not open to question, you would be too overloaded to deal with everything.
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A couple of years ago I went to the Virtual Aviation sim at Gatwick with the local flying club. All of us were PPL, I fly mainly Cessna 152 and the odd PA28, about 100 hours in total. I don't 'fly' any type of pc computer game sims, so this was my first experience in a full size, full motion sim. We flew the Airbus 320, and I was able to take off from Gatwick, fly a circuit and land (it was bumpy and the passengers would have expected a refund, but we would have walked off!!). The instructor flew the first circuit and we watched, and when it was my turn (I was last so was able to watch the other 3 have their go), he was simply giving instructions, so I was hands on - I could not have done it without the verbal instructions, but if it happened for real, and I had radio contact with someone giving instructions, then I would like to think there was something of a fighting chance! And in daylight, clear sky conditions! If I had no flying experience, then I think it would definitely end in tears...
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I've got free time and some ££ If someone could point me in the right direction (sim) I'd give it a go, i.e. radio instruction or the like, on my own in the cockpit.
I sincerely will give it a try, preferably in the London/S.East area, and all are welcome (if possible) to attend. I have no knowledge of flying, only knowing, thrust gives lift.
I await feedback. I'll really have a go at this. As OP question.
Daz
I sincerely will give it a try, preferably in the London/S.East area, and all are welcome (if possible) to attend. I have no knowledge of flying, only knowing, thrust gives lift.
I await feedback. I'll really have a go at this. As OP question.
Daz
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A simulator is a nice safe world, where you can stop at any time....
In the real world, you would be worried, scared close to panic and more importantly very very stressed.
As I said I would go for the automatics, why do PPL and ms sim pilots think they know better than ATPL crew?
The senario would be something like this, Both pilots are incapacitated, if your lucky you will be in the climb, not the cruise. So you get one of them out of the flight deck, sit down, do you know how to set the seat set up?
So you strap in and in and look at the instruments, are you climbing, are you straight and level what's your speed? flaps, are they up, is the gear down...
Okay deep breath, time to talk to someone, where's the ptt switch? Press the wrong one you end up with a siren, how do you engage the autopilot, if your holding the yoke why won't it engage?
Assuming you make it this far, remember you are on your own at this moment...
You get hold of ATC, which country are you in, do they understand what you are gabbing on about?
Lets say you decide to return to your departure airfield, how do you turn around. what switches do you press and when? what if you get it wrong.....
Lets take it you can get the height and speed off, even to the point of Flaps and Gear Down, 1500 feet agl with a autopilot engaged. Is this the point you disconnect?
A 737 feels a hell of a lot different than a 172, its controls are heaver for a start.
You see your high on the glide, you push the nose down, now your 1 dot low speed too much, do you take power off? if so how much, 2 or 3%, which gauge to look at? now your speed is low, how do you get it back.
If you don't disconnect,engage the 2nd autopilot as long as the raidos are tuned and you have pressed the VOR/LOC and APP (737 Classic) you have a chance.
Anything else is Russian Roulette, you are not only risking your life, but potentially the lives of hundreds of others as well. Nothing kills faster than cockiness.
In the real world, you would be worried, scared close to panic and more importantly very very stressed.
As I said I would go for the automatics, why do PPL and ms sim pilots think they know better than ATPL crew?
The senario would be something like this, Both pilots are incapacitated, if your lucky you will be in the climb, not the cruise. So you get one of them out of the flight deck, sit down, do you know how to set the seat set up?
So you strap in and in and look at the instruments, are you climbing, are you straight and level what's your speed? flaps, are they up, is the gear down...
Okay deep breath, time to talk to someone, where's the ptt switch? Press the wrong one you end up with a siren, how do you engage the autopilot, if your holding the yoke why won't it engage?
Assuming you make it this far, remember you are on your own at this moment...
You get hold of ATC, which country are you in, do they understand what you are gabbing on about?
Lets say you decide to return to your departure airfield, how do you turn around. what switches do you press and when? what if you get it wrong.....
Lets take it you can get the height and speed off, even to the point of Flaps and Gear Down, 1500 feet agl with a autopilot engaged. Is this the point you disconnect?
A 737 feels a hell of a lot different than a 172, its controls are heaver for a start.
You see your high on the glide, you push the nose down, now your 1 dot low speed too much, do you take power off? if so how much, 2 or 3%, which gauge to look at? now your speed is low, how do you get it back.
If you don't disconnect,engage the 2nd autopilot as long as the raidos are tuned and you have pressed the VOR/LOC and APP (737 Classic) you have a chance.
Anything else is Russian Roulette, you are not only risking your life, but potentially the lives of hundreds of others as well. Nothing kills faster than cockiness.
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And whatFord Cortina says guys, is it in a nut shell.
So you'vedone oodles of approaches in flt sim, but you clicked images with a mouse.
Thelevers have different throws and feel, does the auto pilot have CWS and autoposition? How fast and far do you move the thrust levers for power change youwant, remembering the eight seconds lag to go from idle to max power?... mate,that has been the longest eight seconds in a number of pilot’s lives… onedegree of nose up or down can produce more rate of climb or descent than you'veexperienced yet, unless really throwing your aeroplane around. One degree istiny… concentrate on another pilot’s pitch changing in a lightie some time andsee just how much the nose travels and normally you don’t even notice it. Evenbetter, sit down the back seat of a long aeroplane that you can see out of thewindscreen and watch the ground dance around. People feel sick sometimes doingthat.
Jets aresluggish sometimes, slippery as hell most of the time and complicated, with somany switches and instruments looking the same.
No onehas mentioned pressurisation... a minor thing, but you'd probably get sued byall the punters down the back who fell out of the wreck with bleeding ears. Intoday's climate you'd find some lawyer who'd jump at the chance.
I wonderhow many little mistakes people do in these sims, are immediately corrected bythe operator to save the punter’s feelings and make him want to come back..
My matesand, too dreamed and we were looking at saving a DC3, 4 or 6, but then I slowlyclimbed the ladder for many years, one step at a time to fly 737s. We’re notjust saying “We’re good and you’re not one of us.”
I reckonwith time to get a captain from a terminal to ATC, time for him to slowly get youselecting all the right frequencies on the right radios, knowing how to operateall the systems like flaps and gear, auto pilot and the right aerodrome withthe ILS you need, (back as slow as you can go, is still four miles a minute) youwould pull it off, but as someone else said when it stops, then what? Will themob down the back stay strapped in their seats or will some hero lead thelemmings and bugger up all your good work?
In anauto land, you have TWO experienced pilots knowing exactly what each does, and WHEN(no locating or fumbling) and it happens quickly and constantly all the waydown.
I had ago at an auto land in an empty, basic 737 (not equipped for auto land) to seehow far it would get, for the benefit of my and the captain I was training’sknowledge … just in case. She went OK tothree hundred feet, then wanted to do her own thing and suddenly got heavyhanded. We would have ploughed in if I didn’t kill the auto pilot and landmanually. I was flying four to six legs a day at the time, so I was comfortablein the cockpit.
"Thrust produces lift???" Dazdaz1 ... well sort of. What you have said is maybe more for helicopters not aeroplanes... still, you probably would be a good candidate because you wouldn't have any pre-conceived ideas about your flying ability and would do as you were instructed without any questioning.
So you'vedone oodles of approaches in flt sim, but you clicked images with a mouse.
Thelevers have different throws and feel, does the auto pilot have CWS and autoposition? How fast and far do you move the thrust levers for power change youwant, remembering the eight seconds lag to go from idle to max power?... mate,that has been the longest eight seconds in a number of pilot’s lives… onedegree of nose up or down can produce more rate of climb or descent than you'veexperienced yet, unless really throwing your aeroplane around. One degree istiny… concentrate on another pilot’s pitch changing in a lightie some time andsee just how much the nose travels and normally you don’t even notice it. Evenbetter, sit down the back seat of a long aeroplane that you can see out of thewindscreen and watch the ground dance around. People feel sick sometimes doingthat.
Jets aresluggish sometimes, slippery as hell most of the time and complicated, with somany switches and instruments looking the same.
No onehas mentioned pressurisation... a minor thing, but you'd probably get sued byall the punters down the back who fell out of the wreck with bleeding ears. Intoday's climate you'd find some lawyer who'd jump at the chance.
I wonderhow many little mistakes people do in these sims, are immediately corrected bythe operator to save the punter’s feelings and make him want to come back..
My matesand, too dreamed and we were looking at saving a DC3, 4 or 6, but then I slowlyclimbed the ladder for many years, one step at a time to fly 737s. We’re notjust saying “We’re good and you’re not one of us.”
I reckonwith time to get a captain from a terminal to ATC, time for him to slowly get youselecting all the right frequencies on the right radios, knowing how to operateall the systems like flaps and gear, auto pilot and the right aerodrome withthe ILS you need, (back as slow as you can go, is still four miles a minute) youwould pull it off, but as someone else said when it stops, then what? Will themob down the back stay strapped in their seats or will some hero lead thelemmings and bugger up all your good work?
In anauto land, you have TWO experienced pilots knowing exactly what each does, and WHEN(no locating or fumbling) and it happens quickly and constantly all the waydown.
I had ago at an auto land in an empty, basic 737 (not equipped for auto land) to seehow far it would get, for the benefit of my and the captain I was training’sknowledge … just in case. She went OK tothree hundred feet, then wanted to do her own thing and suddenly got heavyhanded. We would have ploughed in if I didn’t kill the auto pilot and landmanually. I was flying four to six legs a day at the time, so I was comfortablein the cockpit.
"Thrust produces lift???" Dazdaz1 ... well sort of. What you have said is maybe more for helicopters not aeroplanes... still, you probably would be a good candidate because you wouldn't have any pre-conceived ideas about your flying ability and would do as you were instructed without any questioning.
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Interesting,
How would you guys rate a MSFS jockey's (with 0 real world hours) chances if they were to find them selves in the same situation in the front seat of a glider? Personally I'd rate there chances pretty good but would be interested to hear what the experts think.
How would you guys rate a MSFS jockey's (with 0 real world hours) chances if they were to find them selves in the same situation in the front seat of a glider? Personally I'd rate there chances pretty good but would be interested to hear what the experts think.
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How would you guys rate a MSFS jockey's (with 0 real world hours) chances if they were to find them selves in the same situation in the front seat of a glider? Personally I'd rate there chances pretty good but would be interested to hear what the experts think.
I had radio contact with someone giving instructions, then I would like to think there was something of a fighting chance!
I've only seen the aforementioned Mythbusters episode once but, and I may be wrong, I got the impression the instructor, sat outside the sim, had a full set of the Flight Deck displays available to him and was using these to help out Adam/Jamie on their second, "assisted" run. Anybody with access to the episode know if that was indeed the case?
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I think that the situation would overload the majority of PPL's. I remember going from Warrior to Seneca and even with the benefit of prior knowledge and an instructor, I was all over the place initially.
I suspect that the scenario most likely to succeed would be for the PPL to use the radio, (they would probably be able to do that) and to be given and aircraft to follow who is instructing them and telling them what to do. Using the auto pilot in anything other than straight and level will overload. Set the power and follow the aircraft ahead who call the flaps etc. I still think that the chances of success are mimimal. There are just so many traps that a PPL can jump in to. If the power curve doesn't get you...flaring at your 'normal' 10 feet probably will.
I suspect that the scenario most likely to succeed would be for the PPL to use the radio, (they would probably be able to do that) and to be given and aircraft to follow who is instructing them and telling them what to do. Using the auto pilot in anything other than straight and level will overload. Set the power and follow the aircraft ahead who call the flaps etc. I still think that the chances of success are mimimal. There are just so many traps that a PPL can jump in to. If the power curve doesn't get you...flaring at your 'normal' 10 feet probably will.
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Another thought... Do you think the people in control (CAA) /emergency services/airline company/insurers of this scenario would allow an attempted landing at a major or regional airport in the UK due to the possibility of crashing on built up areas of population?
I still await advice on where I may conduct sim landing, using a professional simulator as used by airline companies. I anticipate paying a good fee for the attempt, although this might well be offset by a television production company who have expressed interest.
Daz
I still await advice on where I may conduct sim landing, using a professional simulator as used by airline companies. I anticipate paying a good fee for the attempt, although this might well be offset by a television production company who have expressed interest.
Daz