BE-76 aka duchess not recognised by Indian DGCA anymore
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: sfo
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree, it may backfire as well if we go to press at this point. Since DGCA can claim that its on their website under a CAR to consider conversion only on registered a/c.
The arguments in our favor are:
1) No public notice that duchess has been de-recognized, they know its one of the most popular multi engine a/c. I don't buy the argument that I should check daily to see if its registered or not even during my training. It may be registered when I started training but no longer valid
2) Technical specific exam is still going on.
3) No public notice about the june 1st deadline. I am not sure how true it is.
My question to all is, are they atleast considering the multi commercial on duchess? Any chance they are saying that since CPL is on duchess hence CPL itself is not valid...If they are not then bigger issue.
The arguments in our favor are:
1) No public notice that duchess has been de-recognized, they know its one of the most popular multi engine a/c. I don't buy the argument that I should check daily to see if its registered or not even during my training. It may be registered when I started training but no longer valid
2) Technical specific exam is still going on.
3) No public notice about the june 1st deadline. I am not sure how true it is.
My question to all is, are they atleast considering the multi commercial on duchess? Any chance they are saying that since CPL is on duchess hence CPL itself is not valid...If they are not then bigger issue.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Inside DGCA office
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This straight from the DGCA's mouth!
I spoke to Flight Operations Inspector Capt Katpalia, Director MT Bokade and DTL Director Ashutosh Vashisht.
They say that the BE76 issue is under review and the verdict is expected to be out soon. Bharat Bhushan will have the final say on the matter.
In the mean time, DGCA is introducing new rules regarding ME training. They will NOT be issuing NOC for training on ME from abroad before clearing the technical papers for the aircraft type in India. Not sure whenn this rule will come into force, but as things stand now they are issuing NOC.
So the real dilemma is whether one should wait in the hope of a favourable outcome on BE76 review, or request NOC and get endorsed on another aircraft before they make changes to the rule.
I spoke to Flight Operations Inspector Capt Katpalia, Director MT Bokade and DTL Director Ashutosh Vashisht.
They say that the BE76 issue is under review and the verdict is expected to be out soon. Bharat Bhushan will have the final say on the matter.
In the mean time, DGCA is introducing new rules regarding ME training. They will NOT be issuing NOC for training on ME from abroad before clearing the technical papers for the aircraft type in India. Not sure whenn this rule will come into force, but as things stand now they are issuing NOC.
So the real dilemma is whether one should wait in the hope of a favourable outcome on BE76 review, or request NOC and get endorsed on another aircraft before they make changes to the rule.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: India
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
avicon - If what you said is true, I hope the decision is made in our favour and the BE76 will be recognised by the DGCA.
This issue can only be resolved with the help of those who have completed their training and wish to get an endorsement/renewal by writing to the DTL or DGCA rather than talking to them over the phone. The random verbal statements made by the officials about the BE76 over the phone or in person are unworthy and eventually they would go against us. We must put pressure on them, or they would take us for granted. Issuing public notices on their website is the right thing to do. If the DGCA takes a decision against us, that would be another foul play by them and a classic case of ignorance having issued hundreds of BE76 endorsements on the Indian CPL over the last 3 years since February 2008. We must let them know that the BE76 is here to stay, rather than giving up and paying more for an endorsement on another aircraft.
It doesn't seem like anyone is interested in doing that. It is sad if that is the case. Correct me if I'm wrong.
This issue can only be resolved with the help of those who have completed their training and wish to get an endorsement/renewal by writing to the DTL or DGCA rather than talking to them over the phone. The random verbal statements made by the officials about the BE76 over the phone or in person are unworthy and eventually they would go against us. We must put pressure on them, or they would take us for granted. Issuing public notices on their website is the right thing to do. If the DGCA takes a decision against us, that would be another foul play by them and a classic case of ignorance having issued hundreds of BE76 endorsements on the Indian CPL over the last 3 years since February 2008. We must let them know that the BE76 is here to stay, rather than giving up and paying more for an endorsement on another aircraft.
It doesn't seem like anyone is interested in doing that. It is sad if that is the case. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Inside DGCA office
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sorry but I do not have the energy, time or resource to fight the DGCA. But I can provide full moral support to those wishing to take on the joke that DGCA has now become.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Inside DGCA office
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The simple strategy that DGCA employs is the constant shifting of goal posts. This makes it very difficult for anyone to comply with their ever changing requirements.
The Indian DGCA is the Galapagos of the Aviation world. Evolving quite distinctly and seperately from the rest of the world even as standardisation of aviation procedures/rules/regulations under ICAO seem to the order of the day(well at least for the rest of the world).
The Indian DGCA is the Galapagos of the Aviation world. Evolving quite distinctly and seperately from the rest of the world even as standardisation of aviation procedures/rules/regulations under ICAO seem to the order of the day(well at least for the rest of the world).
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: india
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ avicon....
I'm about to fly abroad for my currency .... what shud i do ?get a NOC from DGCA to fly in dutchess to finish of my recency or simply get a rating in seneca by flying some extra hours .....
Will getting rated in a seneca is enough for DGCA or those honourable
are expecting anything else from us ....
Last but not least let the forum do its thing i.e, find some solutions by providing help to the future ..... everytime ppl thought of revoltin against the DGCA, (I've already done it to worthless RT examiners who were literally incapable of understanding plain english and speak the same.) and most of the time its the same ppl who started it are the ones to end it too. Welcome to worthless indian democracy
Will getting rated in a seneca is enough for DGCA or those honourable
are expecting anything else from us ....Last but not least let the forum do its thing i.e, find some solutions by providing help to the future ..... everytime ppl thought of revoltin against the DGCA, (I've already done it to worthless RT examiners who were literally incapable of understanding plain english and speak the same.) and most of the time its the same ppl who started it are the ones to end it too. Welcome to worthless indian democracy
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: india
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ smurf
i thought about what u said reg the ppl who got endorsed with it ... trust me DGCA cannot cancel the endorsements ..... what if some of them used the priveleges of their indian license and flew sometime in the air ... Is DGCA gonna press the rewind button in the real world..... u cannot endorse and cancel hundredds of licenses just like that because it indirectly means that DGCA has committed major mistake ..... if DGCA is gonna cancel the endos (trust me i dare them to do it and if they do it) it will be much easier for them to hang themselves .... but this time we wont be ones talking , it will be poor souls who got their endorsements or licenses cancelled ......
its like survival of the fittest ...... its always some student or corporate vs DGCA...
its like survival of the fittest ...... its always some student or corporate vs DGCA...
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: India
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
avicon and flaps13 -
I submitted my NZ CPL for conversion at the DGCA office today. I also spoke to Mr.Vasishtha (who I reckon is the Dy.Director of Flight Training and Licencing) about the BE76 issue. He asked me if I submitted my licence. I told him I did it today. Then he says - "Alright, lets see how it goes. Hopefully everything is fine, you may get it issued". Atleast better than some of the other responses where the DGCA official says an absolute NO to the Duchess. It looks like at the moment they are accepting it. So whosoever is almost close to submitting their documents, I suggest you do them right away before the rules are changed next month.
I submitted my NZ CPL for conversion at the DGCA office today. I also spoke to Mr.Vasishtha (who I reckon is the Dy.Director of Flight Training and Licencing) about the BE76 issue. He asked me if I submitted my licence. I told him I did it today. Then he says - "Alright, lets see how it goes. Hopefully everything is fine, you may get it issued". Atleast better than some of the other responses where the DGCA official says an absolute NO to the Duchess. It looks like at the moment they are accepting it. So whosoever is almost close to submitting their documents, I suggest you do them right away before the rules are changed next month.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Inside DGCA office
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They are NOT issuing NOC for Duchess anymore. Period. If you have it endorsed on your licence, you have the option of endorsing another ME aircraft registered in India with a valid CoA and then doing your IR training/ renewal etc on that aircraft type.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Inside DGCA office
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If Mr Vashisht said that to you, then what are we to make of the inconsistencies within DGCA? Whom do we trust. Whose words carry more weight. This is disgusting.
I have just had my application for NOC on BE76 rejected and returned to me by MT Bokade, Director FID section.
I have just had my application for NOC on BE76 rejected and returned to me by MT Bokade, Director FID section.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cochin VOCI , India
Age: 35
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@avicon
Did you apply the NOC for initial training on duchess or going for recency ?
Also did he give the reason for rejection ?
Did you apply the NOC for initial training on duchess or going for recency ?
Also did he give the reason for rejection ?
Last edited by cyrilroy21; 29th Jun 2011 at 13:20.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In a pressurized cabin..
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hiii
this sounds really terrible...I JUST DID MY MULTI IN DUCHESS!!!!!
guys m goin back for currency to USA,is there anyway to get a multi CPL,? i can do another 10 hours in seneca or do i need to do my checkride again in some other aircraft which is approved my DGCA??????
guys m goin back for currency to USA,is there anyway to get a multi CPL,? i can do another 10 hours in seneca or do i need to do my checkride again in some other aircraft which is approved my DGCA??????
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cochin VOCI , India
Age: 35
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@flyhigh07
You dont need to do another FAA checkride on an aircraft registered in India
All you need to do is
1. Fly 10 hours of dual with an FAA instructor / examiner on an a/c registered in India with valid CoA ( PA 34-220 Highly recommended )
This time cannot be logged as PIC according to DGCA
2. Do the DAY CHECK , NIGHT CHECK , IR check on the a/c with an instructor/examiner ( should be logged as PIC )
Make sure that the checks are signed in your logbook by the instructor / examiner who did the checks
You dont need to do another FAA checkride on an aircraft registered in India
All you need to do is
1. Fly 10 hours of dual with an FAA instructor / examiner on an a/c registered in India with valid CoA ( PA 34-220 Highly recommended )
This time cannot be logged as PIC according to DGCA
2. Do the DAY CHECK , NIGHT CHECK , IR check on the a/c with an instructor/examiner ( should be logged as PIC )
Make sure that the checks are signed in your logbook by the instructor / examiner who did the checks
Join Date: May 2011
Location: India
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@cyrilroy21
I am doing my recency right now in usa.. And I have Multi CPL of FAA(BE-76).
My instructor told me I can log PIC from the very first hour of Seneca because I have a Rating of multi engine and its same engine type. We dont have to give any checkride. We just need to fly 10 hours.
I am thinking if I have to fly 10 hours, y not I ll do my Day, night and ir check and 250 and 120 nm x-country in seneca. By this I ll get my multi cpl from dgca and get single endorsement.
Correct me if I am wrong..
I am doing my recency right now in usa.. And I have Multi CPL of FAA(BE-76).
My instructor told me I can log PIC from the very first hour of Seneca because I have a Rating of multi engine and its same engine type. We dont have to give any checkride. We just need to fly 10 hours.
I am thinking if I have to fly 10 hours, y not I ll do my Day, night and ir check and 250 and 120 nm x-country in seneca. By this I ll get my multi cpl from dgca and get single endorsement.
Correct me if I am wrong..
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cochin VOCI , India
Age: 35
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Gagandeep
I am in the same position as you are
Hold FAA CPL with ME-IR checkride on BE-76
I know that you are allowed to log it as PIC from the first flight on a piper seneca as per FAA rules
However the one thing I am not sure of is whether the DGCA will accept it as PIC
The reason I am telling this is because according to the flowchart it says for multi endorsement you need atleast 10 hours of "training" which I assume to be dual flights . The DGCA wont let you log DUAL and PIC on the same flight
I am quite blank about this situation too
If they do let us log it as PIC then that would save us a ton of money when it comes to recency
I have a friend in Delhi and will ask him to talk to Mr. Vashisht about this issue
I am in the same position as you are
Hold FAA CPL with ME-IR checkride on BE-76
I know that you are allowed to log it as PIC from the first flight on a piper seneca as per FAA rules
However the one thing I am not sure of is whether the DGCA will accept it as PIC
The reason I am telling this is because according to the flowchart it says for multi endorsement you need atleast 10 hours of "training" which I assume to be dual flights . The DGCA wont let you log DUAL and PIC on the same flight
I am quite blank about this situation too
If they do let us log it as PIC then that would save us a ton of money when it comes to recency
I have a friend in Delhi and will ask him to talk to Mr. Vashisht about this issue
Join Date: May 2011
Location: India
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@cyrilroy21
You cannot log only PIC in multi flight because.. We can not fly alone in multi aircrafts in USA due to some insurance and all. We always flew with instructor and log PIC with dual in Jeppessen Logbook and PI/US in Indian one.
About training we already done with our training in multi thats the reason we are holding CPL-ME from USA.
In India, pilots just flew 10 hours in multi add on including day night and ir check. So how is it possible to show them 3 PIC hours and 10 hours of training in just 10 hours.
And training part in Seneca, I talked to Vashista before coming to USA. He told me FAA rules are different, u can do your Checks in 3 hours or in 5-7 hours in seneca depending upon when they allow you to log PIC.
And we dont require any checkout and all. We are not going to fly multi alone and we just need PIC hours from multi flight..
You cannot log only PIC in multi flight because.. We can not fly alone in multi aircrafts in USA due to some insurance and all. We always flew with instructor and log PIC with dual in Jeppessen Logbook and PI/US in Indian one.
About training we already done with our training in multi thats the reason we are holding CPL-ME from USA.
In India, pilots just flew 10 hours in multi add on including day night and ir check. So how is it possible to show them 3 PIC hours and 10 hours of training in just 10 hours.
And training part in Seneca, I talked to Vashista before coming to USA. He told me FAA rules are different, u can do your Checks in 3 hours or in 5-7 hours in seneca depending upon when they allow you to log PIC.
And we dont require any checkout and all. We are not going to fly multi alone and we just need PIC hours from multi flight..
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cochin VOCI , India
Age: 35
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm....
You have a valid point regarding the insurance minimums .
There was flying club at KDAB ( Daytona Beach ) that allowed you to fly their duchess solo provided you passed their checkout in the a/c
They charged 195$/hr wet rate to rent it solo ( used to be 185$/hr )
I have another question .
Like you said earlier since you are already a multi commercial licensed pilot ,
When you rent a seneca you will be logging it as pure PIC right ?
If you can carry an instructor on board (say for insurance purposes) i dont think
you will be logging dual since he is not giving any instruction .
Am I right ?
You have a valid point regarding the insurance minimums .
There was flying club at KDAB ( Daytona Beach ) that allowed you to fly their duchess solo provided you passed their checkout in the a/c
They charged 195$/hr wet rate to rent it solo ( used to be 185$/hr )
I have another question .
Like you said earlier since you are already a multi commercial licensed pilot ,
When you rent a seneca you will be logging it as pure PIC right ?
If you can carry an instructor on board (say for insurance purposes) i dont think
you will be logging dual since he is not giving any instruction .
Am I right ?
Join Date: May 2011
Location: India
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sir, there is difference in solo and PIC.
We cannot log solo in multi because of twin engine, heavy aircraft and u are not so precise to fly solo in just 10 hours of your training. It requires more training.
The pilot getting checkouts in multi for flying solo having PPL, IR in multi which I have seen in my school. Can't say about others.
We just need PIC for our requirements. Checks also been done under supervision of Instructors.
We can log PIC in Seneca with dual in Jeppessen logbook and PI/US in indian logbook.
We cannot log solo in multi because of twin engine, heavy aircraft and u are not so precise to fly solo in just 10 hours of your training. It requires more training.
The pilot getting checkouts in multi for flying solo having PPL, IR in multi which I have seen in my school. Can't say about others.
We just need PIC for our requirements. Checks also been done under supervision of Instructors.
We can log PIC in Seneca with dual in Jeppessen logbook and PI/US in indian logbook.