Why only few pilots join Vietnam now?
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: On the dark side of the moon
Age: 70
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TOP UP
all 4 were second officers, admitted when they were cornered, one left after his first flight after arguing with the vice president of the airline, (not a wise thing to do) the second ones contract was cancelled last moth, 2 more are still hanging on and trying hard and might be able to make it.
there is no reason to bring the 89 story up again and insult others.
there is no reason to bring the 89 story up again and insult others.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mach .84,
Fair call & edited as a result. Apologies. Blindly mentioning issues passed on to me by a 3rd party isn't right. I'm not of that part of that world, but been around long enough to know enough about it through numerous contracts and beers around the world.
BUT, that doesn't make a cowards denigrating words about those colleagues he flies with any better. Scum in my eyes.
I'm not a part of aviation in Vietnam but despise all pilots backstabbing each other. This guy "PROBUSMC" is less than spineless......
But sorry Mach .84, you're wrong. Have you EVER face to face asked one of these guys the truth? BUT!! Never let the TRUTH get in the way of pilot egos! Or are you relying on incestuous rumor to support an idea? The FOUR from AI? I was told one was ex ANZ (on L.W.P.) and from Jet Airways? Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to have already blown A LOT of credibility out of this B.S.
As for the ways and means of them being dismissed, I have no idea but will never rely on PPRuNe for an ounce of truth!
When it comes to a person's professional integrity be armed with FACTS. DO NOT use this cheap forum as a means to denigrate your colleagues.
By the looks of it VAC is not expat friendly when this is the quality of expat charactor at the airline.
Pilots: worse than housewives b!tching to put each other down by backstabbing and gossip.
And integrity: something your father may have mentioned once but lost in the race to the bottom.
Fair call & edited as a result. Apologies. Blindly mentioning issues passed on to me by a 3rd party isn't right. I'm not of that part of that world, but been around long enough to know enough about it through numerous contracts and beers around the world.
BUT, that doesn't make a cowards denigrating words about those colleagues he flies with any better. Scum in my eyes.
I'm not a part of aviation in Vietnam but despise all pilots backstabbing each other. This guy "PROBUSMC" is less than spineless......
But sorry Mach .84, you're wrong. Have you EVER face to face asked one of these guys the truth? BUT!! Never let the TRUTH get in the way of pilot egos! Or are you relying on incestuous rumor to support an idea? The FOUR from AI? I was told one was ex ANZ (on L.W.P.) and from Jet Airways? Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to have already blown A LOT of credibility out of this B.S.
As for the ways and means of them being dismissed, I have no idea but will never rely on PPRuNe for an ounce of truth!
When it comes to a person's professional integrity be armed with FACTS. DO NOT use this cheap forum as a means to denigrate your colleagues.
By the looks of it VAC is not expat friendly when this is the quality of expat charactor at the airline.
Pilots: worse than housewives b!tching to put each other down by backstabbing and gossip.
And integrity: something your father may have mentioned once but lost in the race to the bottom.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saigon
Age: 61
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Toptup;
Neat thing about these forums. They come with a search function. Searching on "Toptup" yields threads that you have posted on. Lots of positive posts. A lot like the previous couple as well.
In one Air India post you claimed to work at AI. That would mean that you have first hand knowledge, so why would you email an AI Captain to find out the truth?
Or maybe you are one of the remaining FO's from AI? And maybe you have a vested interest in hiding the truth?
Comments? I am sure there will be!
Speed and Angels on the left
Neat thing about these forums. They come with a search function. Searching on "Toptup" yields threads that you have posted on. Lots of positive posts. A lot like the previous couple as well.
In one Air India post you claimed to work at AI. That would mean that you have first hand knowledge, so why would you email an AI Captain to find out the truth?
Or maybe you are one of the remaining FO's from AI? And maybe you have a vested interest in hiding the truth?
Comments? I am sure there will be!
Speed and Angels on the left
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're right - a final comment as this thread has been over run too much....
By your "research" principles a volcano in Iceland started the world only a few weeks ago. After all, heaven help anything of depth get in the way of a misguided agenda to prove the world is flat. Also by your logic, I am presently working in HK, I am also working in the Middle East, while having a part time job in Australia AND still work in India despite so much of my time being in the US. As I have posted on these forums very recently as well!
To save you the effort, I resigned from AI (off an RAL contract) long ago. I was a TRE on the 777 and resigned due the systemic corruption and standards they tried to force me to bow down to. (You didn't bother to dig that far did you? Flat earth theory....) Hell, even if you read my posts above you would have noted that I "once met most of them [the AI expat FO's]". I knew of the 9W pilot due working with him there for a brief time. Stop me when the logic kicks in.....
So, because I no longer work there I contacted a colleague who does to gain some perspective on your comments. Unlike you I sort clarification before posting. (You must be one difficult guy to teach in a ground school!)
But don't worry, I'm typing this slowly for you.
Also, as stated, I do not work in that part of the world, ie not for VAC. (I don't seem to be able to spread myself that thin owing to the other jobs you may believe I must have by your definition, as above). So, an FO at VAC... Hmmmm? Regain 25-30 years of my life (nice), back on an FO's salary and get to fly with the likes of you? My integrity can't be sold for a fountain of youth and the price to pay for it (ie working with you).
You'll find I have posted many similar frustrating comments about cheap cowards spreading lies and ignorance via this forum. You want your ego untested and hope for your nasty & conceited opinions to go unfounded at the expense of others. That is my eyes is the mark of a slanderous coward.
And it is because of guys like you that I believe pilots seeking a contract at VAC may wish to consider the (expat) company they could be involved with. I only hope you are the exception.
So, I'll state it again for those of your calibre: This forum is NOT a place to slander your fellow colleagues.
Good luck with that conscience of yours.
Apologies to the person who started this thread for diverging but to allow spineless cowards to put down their colleagues based on idle gossip is wrong. I'll leave it there.
By your "research" principles a volcano in Iceland started the world only a few weeks ago. After all, heaven help anything of depth get in the way of a misguided agenda to prove the world is flat. Also by your logic, I am presently working in HK, I am also working in the Middle East, while having a part time job in Australia AND still work in India despite so much of my time being in the US. As I have posted on these forums very recently as well!
To save you the effort, I resigned from AI (off an RAL contract) long ago. I was a TRE on the 777 and resigned due the systemic corruption and standards they tried to force me to bow down to. (You didn't bother to dig that far did you? Flat earth theory....) Hell, even if you read my posts above you would have noted that I "once met most of them [the AI expat FO's]". I knew of the 9W pilot due working with him there for a brief time. Stop me when the logic kicks in.....
So, because I no longer work there I contacted a colleague who does to gain some perspective on your comments. Unlike you I sort clarification before posting. (You must be one difficult guy to teach in a ground school!
)But don't worry, I'm typing this slowly for you.
Also, as stated, I do not work in that part of the world, ie not for VAC. (I don't seem to be able to spread myself that thin owing to the other jobs you may believe I must have by your definition, as above). So, an FO at VAC... Hmmmm? Regain 25-30 years of my life (nice), back on an FO's salary and get to fly with the likes of you? My integrity can't be sold for a fountain of youth and the price to pay for it (ie working with you).
You'll find I have posted many similar frustrating comments about cheap cowards spreading lies and ignorance via this forum. You want your ego untested and hope for your nasty & conceited opinions to go unfounded at the expense of others. That is my eyes is the mark of a slanderous coward.
And it is because of guys like you that I believe pilots seeking a contract at VAC may wish to consider the (expat) company they could be involved with. I only hope you are the exception.
So, I'll state it again for those of your calibre: This forum is NOT a place to slander your fellow colleagues.
Good luck with that conscience of yours.
Apologies to the person who started this thread for diverging but to allow spineless cowards to put down their colleagues based on idle gossip is wrong. I'll leave it there.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Topup,
I think your comment is a little bit over the” top”. Why are you so upset about this case? Pobeusmc answered quite sensible to a comment of Prozak, full stop. And as you might be aware this is a rumor network, and yes, there is a rumor going around about this case and Probeusmc is not that wrong. And yes, neither I nor you know all the details. But who cares, not any names are mentioned. If the pilots involved have something to say and could cast some light in the case so much the better.
I think your comment is a little bit over the” top”. Why are you so upset about this case? Pobeusmc answered quite sensible to a comment of Prozak, full stop. And as you might be aware this is a rumor network, and yes, there is a rumor going around about this case and Probeusmc is not that wrong. And yes, neither I nor you know all the details. But who cares, not any names are mentioned. If the pilots involved have something to say and could cast some light in the case so much the better.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saigon
Age: 61
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To quote the great Chinese airline pilot confucious - "Never argue with a fool, people might not be able to tell the difference."
To put this thread back on topic, why only a few pilots join Vietnam now?
My opinion? And it is just that.
They are hiring a lot, but they also have a fairly high turnover. The FO pay is excellent in my opinion, and they do upgrade, but with some fairly painful financial conditions.
The upgrade process seems to have a fairly high failure rate as well. How high? 25-35% I think while I was there. That is both to upgrade to Captain, and upgrade to a larger aircraft. The Vietnamese are hard@#$%sses during training, and I mean initial line training for newbies, PC's, and upgrading. They are also hard on their local pilots.
Captain pay is a bit low, and with the 10% cut for one year is one of the lowest paying Captain gigs in Asia. I wouldn't have considered VAC 2 years ago had their pay been 10% less.
The upside to VAC? I was treated very well, far better than my past airline (13 years in USA). I really didn't really complain much about the job. I enjoyed it most days. After a little while, if you are an average Joe, show up, do your job, VAC seems to take care of you. I have met a few pilots that left, and came back because they like it better at VAC. Who knows, maybe I will go back.
The downside to the airline? The training can be tough on westerners brought up in "kindler and gentler" training ROE. Yeah, you are going to get multiple unrelated failures in your simulators (maybe in the airplane too - LOL) and the instructor might raise his voice. It seems that out of 10 new pilots, 1 or 2 always have trouble in training, or just hate it, and leave quickly. Living in Vietnam can also be very challenging for some (including me). Some hate it and leave. Some love it and stay for 12 years.
Their is a lot of turnover, especially within the first year.
Why did I leave (a month ago)? Rishworth. How do I feel about them? It is quicker to just tell you to go up a couple of posts and read what Toptup wrote about me!!!!! That is how I feel about Rishworth.
To put this thread back on topic, why only a few pilots join Vietnam now?
My opinion? And it is just that.
They are hiring a lot, but they also have a fairly high turnover. The FO pay is excellent in my opinion, and they do upgrade, but with some fairly painful financial conditions.
The upgrade process seems to have a fairly high failure rate as well. How high? 25-35% I think while I was there. That is both to upgrade to Captain, and upgrade to a larger aircraft. The Vietnamese are hard@#$%sses during training, and I mean initial line training for newbies, PC's, and upgrading. They are also hard on their local pilots.
Captain pay is a bit low, and with the 10% cut for one year is one of the lowest paying Captain gigs in Asia. I wouldn't have considered VAC 2 years ago had their pay been 10% less.
The upside to VAC? I was treated very well, far better than my past airline (13 years in USA). I really didn't really complain much about the job. I enjoyed it most days. After a little while, if you are an average Joe, show up, do your job, VAC seems to take care of you. I have met a few pilots that left, and came back because they like it better at VAC. Who knows, maybe I will go back.
The downside to the airline? The training can be tough on westerners brought up in "kindler and gentler" training ROE. Yeah, you are going to get multiple unrelated failures in your simulators (maybe in the airplane too - LOL) and the instructor might raise his voice. It seems that out of 10 new pilots, 1 or 2 always have trouble in training, or just hate it, and leave quickly. Living in Vietnam can also be very challenging for some (including me). Some hate it and leave. Some love it and stay for 12 years.
Their is a lot of turnover, especially within the first year.
Why did I leave (a month ago)? Rishworth. How do I feel about them? It is quicker to just tell you to go up a couple of posts and read what Toptup wrote about me!!!!! That is how I feel about Rishworth.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A319
grace.lee
Another problem is that VN don't recognise the A319 as being a A320 series aircraft! This is nuts! Europe's Giant low-cost operator flys A319s with many experienced FOS wanting to join VN Airlines. It's a A320 series aircraft but VN want only A320 hrs... They are unique in this attitude throughout the world
Another problem is that VN don't recognise the A319 as being a A320 series aircraft! This is nuts! Europe's Giant low-cost operator flys A319s with many experienced FOS wanting to join VN Airlines. It's a A320 series aircraft but VN want only A320 hrs... They are unique in this attitude throughout the world
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recently, it turned out that another drawback concerning ATR and Airbus is, that there is no limit of the flight hours in the contract. The block hours are significantly increasing since a couple of months and 100 hours block per month on the Airbus and 80 hours on the ATR are not seldom. On top of this the amount of overnights is going up. Most of the legs are short and last for 30 min to less than two hours. In the raining season which starts now this is not any more fun in the sun...
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Asia
Age: 54
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Code:
In the raining season which starts now this is not any more fun in the sun...
WX is much better and if you do well you ll get 12$ a hrs
(sorry couldn't resist)
respect for CFI CFII MEI overthere
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Brickyard
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The downside to the airline? The training can be tough on westerners brought up in "kindler and gentler" training ROE. Yeah, you are going to get multiple unrelated failures in your simulators (maybe in the airplane too - LOL) and the instructor might raise his voice. It seems that out of 10 new pilots, 1 or 2 always have trouble in training, or just hate it, and leave quickly.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: KGRB, but on the road about 1/2 the time.
Age: 61
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi!
I would apply in a SECOND if they dropped the type-rating requirement.
My brother travelled there a lot, and said that Vietnam was by far his favorite place to relocate to in Asia.
cliff
LFW
I would apply in a SECOND if they dropped the type-rating requirement.
My brother travelled there a lot, and said that Vietnam was by far his favorite place to relocate to in Asia.
cliff
LFW
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saigon
Age: 61
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rainy season? Actually almost a carbon copy of Miami, at least on the ground. Starts dumping rain HARD every afternoon, anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours. Usually starts at 2-230 in the afternoon, as opposed to amost exactly 330, at least in FT Lauderdale. Rainy season doesn't mean it rains all day. it does rain every afternoon for a bit.
Flying? Yeah you are dodging T=storms every afternoon and evening. You get used to it.
Difficult training and its' effectiveness? Can't answer that one. The proficiency of the local FO's was all over the map. The expat FO's on the 320 pretty much said the local Capt's were mostly pretty good to fly with. I guess I would suggest that makes their "difficult training" somewhat successful.
It ain't Delta or BA for standardization or standards, but there are a lot worse places to fly. I liked flying here far better than my last job.
Flying? Yeah you are dodging T=storms every afternoon and evening. You get used to it.
Difficult training and its' effectiveness? Can't answer that one. The proficiency of the local FO's was all over the map. The expat FO's on the 320 pretty much said the local Capt's were mostly pretty good to fly with. I guess I would suggest that makes their "difficult training" somewhat successful.
It ain't Delta or BA for standardization or standards, but there are a lot worse places to fly. I liked flying here far better than my last job.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Asia
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No interview is needed.
Now it's only "one" simulator session, about 4 hours for 2 pilots. The porfile can be different for different fleets, but all in all, it's just like a regular PC/PT session in any airlines. So you can expect RTO,V1 cut,non-precision/visual approach,go around,EVAC, and maybe some holding instruction via FMC...etc. No "tricky" things in simulator.
This is correct until Apr/2010, at least
Now it's only "one" simulator session, about 4 hours for 2 pilots. The porfile can be different for different fleets, but all in all, it's just like a regular PC/PT session in any airlines. So you can expect RTO,V1 cut,non-precision/visual approach,go around,EVAC, and maybe some holding instruction via FMC...etc. No "tricky" things in simulator.
This is correct until Apr/2010, at least
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can tell you straight from the horses mouth if you like. Screening for captains is a APU u/s push back and then single engine work. just single engine work for F/O. Then the TRE can select from a list including dual hyd, dual IR, dual ADR. SOPs are not so important as you will be with a partner from another part of the world. Get together with them and have a chat about how you will play it.
Definition of single engine work: V1 cut, single engine GA, NPA AP on, ILS raw data no AP, single engine landing. 20 kt x wind. Weather at minima.
The last Captain to fail that i know of flew in from Europe on the morning of the sim and met the other captain 1 hour before they got in the sim. Why why why?
Probeusmc. I know him. everything he says is straight up.
Top Tup. Who on earth are you. You have got to be an Australian. you're not in vac so gob shut please as you have insulted a friend of mine who i respect for his decisions. He was and still is a very experienced Captain with a great reputation. We have a big problem with guys falsifying hours etc. It's a small world though and the truth will catch up with them. If these guys were only s/o then they will be found out and if i had my way be shipped off to jail. ex AI ex jet ex anz ex nasa ex whatever..who cares the result should be the same. If they're no good they should be flicked off. Anyone who thinks line training here is 100% pass rate should think again. If you are substandard you won't pass.
It's a rumour network but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out who some people are.
Definition of single engine work: V1 cut, single engine GA, NPA AP on, ILS raw data no AP, single engine landing. 20 kt x wind. Weather at minima.
The last Captain to fail that i know of flew in from Europe on the morning of the sim and met the other captain 1 hour before they got in the sim. Why why why?
Probeusmc. I know him. everything he says is straight up.
Top Tup. Who on earth are you. You have got to be an Australian. you're not in vac so gob shut please as you have insulted a friend of mine who i respect for his decisions. He was and still is a very experienced Captain with a great reputation. We have a big problem with guys falsifying hours etc. It's a small world though and the truth will catch up with them. If these guys were only s/o then they will be found out and if i had my way be shipped off to jail. ex AI ex jet ex anz ex nasa ex whatever..who cares the result should be the same. If they're no good they should be flicked off. Anyone who thinks line training here is 100% pass rate should think again. If you are substandard you won't pass.
It's a rumour network but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out who some people are.
Last edited by ia1166; 11th May 2010 at 14:38.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York and beyond
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probeusmc is a liar.
The Ex-Jet Airways pilot is a First Officer with Air New Zealand.
The other 3 pilots were with Air India for up to 2 years. They had Command Ratings on the B777 trained by Air New Zealand. They were employed by Air India through Rishworth as First Officers. It took 8 months to be checked to line at AI due to a lack of organisation in their training department. This was latter improved. Once checked to line they mainly flew ULH DEL-NYC, BOM-NYC.
This was interspersed with LON, PAR, & FRA. It's true that initially they rarely got to take off or land. But this improved as they gained respect from the Indian Captains and a shortage of FO's became critical. Near the end most of these pilots were operating 2 crew to LON and FRA.
The rumours and stories that have gone around VNA are unbelievable.
The fact that most of them are spread by expats is despicable.
That anyone would believe such dishonorable and dishonest characters beggars belief. But then again I guess that's why they are there....
Shame on You Probeusmc. I never thought that you would stoop to such low levels as to repeat scurrilous rumours. I guess the CODE is only amongst fellow Marines......
A large majority of the Vietnamese Captains are extremely competent and professional. Particularly a number of TRE's. Unfortunately this is spoiled by characters such as our Kiwi friend ran into and the B777 Chief Pilot who are abusive and dangerous in a cockpit. It might also help if they understood some english so that small misunderstandings didn't escalate into outright yelling and abuse in the cockpit.....
But at least the Vietnamese stab you from the front.....
The Ex-Jet Airways pilot is a First Officer with Air New Zealand.
The other 3 pilots were with Air India for up to 2 years. They had Command Ratings on the B777 trained by Air New Zealand. They were employed by Air India through Rishworth as First Officers. It took 8 months to be checked to line at AI due to a lack of organisation in their training department. This was latter improved. Once checked to line they mainly flew ULH DEL-NYC, BOM-NYC.
This was interspersed with LON, PAR, & FRA. It's true that initially they rarely got to take off or land. But this improved as they gained respect from the Indian Captains and a shortage of FO's became critical. Near the end most of these pilots were operating 2 crew to LON and FRA.
The rumours and stories that have gone around VNA are unbelievable.
The fact that most of them are spread by expats is despicable.
That anyone would believe such dishonorable and dishonest characters beggars belief. But then again I guess that's why they are there....
Shame on You Probeusmc. I never thought that you would stoop to such low levels as to repeat scurrilous rumours. I guess the CODE is only amongst fellow Marines......
A large majority of the Vietnamese Captains are extremely competent and professional. Particularly a number of TRE's. Unfortunately this is spoiled by characters such as our Kiwi friend ran into and the B777 Chief Pilot who are abusive and dangerous in a cockpit. It might also help if they understood some english so that small misunderstandings didn't escalate into outright yelling and abuse in the cockpit.....
But at least the Vietnamese stab you from the front.....