job for fresh CPL holder
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Arcane,
If you and many others who posted earlier, think that in India one does not have to kiss ar$e or bribe to get things done, you got to be kidding yourselves !
I mean , come on ! gimme a break gentlemen !
I know Line Captains and TREs happily flying A320s and B737s who had to shell out a big a$$ amount of dough for various things from the very beginning of their careers.
One of these captains had to shell out some 3 lakhs cash to get his DGCA and WPC work done and about 15 lakhs to get into Air India. and keep in mind this was in addition to using some political contacts and also in the early 90s. Right now, all of you would be shocked to know how much one has to pay for clearing DGCA papers, RT and to "overlook" minor stuff in Class 1 medicals !!!
But let me tell you very clearly before you all start shooting off again. This captain (now an A320 P1), is one smart chap. He knows his **** when it comes to aviation. He loves his flying, and all this stuff related to aerodynamics, navigation, weather etc.
His flying capabilities are way above average, he holds an FAA CFI, II and Multi Instructor Ratings and has some 1500 hours "dual given" time to his credit.
He loves to teach, which is why he got his FAA instructor ratings.
and yet, despite all his qualifications he had to kiss ar$e big time and shell out $$$$$. Thank heavens none of the DGCA babus and clerks that I know of so far are gay !!!
Now, coming to the point.
If this same Captain would have adamently chosen to remain pure and honest and never ever give in to corruption and paying bribes etc, what do you think he would be doing now ?
Still wa#king off like every other wannabe off the street for several months (or years) hoping for some miracle.
now he is happily married with 2 kids, well settled with a good bank balance and would have absolutely no problems even if he is grounded anytime.
Totally agreed with VIMANMAN,
most of those who scolded and admonished "tailwinds" are all wannabes who are yet to clear their exams and convert their licence and Im sure atleast 70% of people in this forum have resorted to paying under the table to get their Indian CPL or first job.
If you and many others who posted earlier, think that in India one does not have to kiss ar$e or bribe to get things done, you got to be kidding yourselves !
I mean , come on ! gimme a break gentlemen !
I know Line Captains and TREs happily flying A320s and B737s who had to shell out a big a$$ amount of dough for various things from the very beginning of their careers.
One of these captains had to shell out some 3 lakhs cash to get his DGCA and WPC work done and about 15 lakhs to get into Air India. and keep in mind this was in addition to using some political contacts and also in the early 90s. Right now, all of you would be shocked to know how much one has to pay for clearing DGCA papers, RT and to "overlook" minor stuff in Class 1 medicals !!!
But let me tell you very clearly before you all start shooting off again. This captain (now an A320 P1), is one smart chap. He knows his **** when it comes to aviation. He loves his flying, and all this stuff related to aerodynamics, navigation, weather etc.
His flying capabilities are way above average, he holds an FAA CFI, II and Multi Instructor Ratings and has some 1500 hours "dual given" time to his credit.
He loves to teach, which is why he got his FAA instructor ratings.
and yet, despite all his qualifications he had to kiss ar$e big time and shell out $$$$$. Thank heavens none of the DGCA babus and clerks that I know of so far are gay !!!
Now, coming to the point.
If this same Captain would have adamently chosen to remain pure and honest and never ever give in to corruption and paying bribes etc, what do you think he would be doing now ?
Still wa#king off like every other wannabe off the street for several months (or years) hoping for some miracle.
now he is happily married with 2 kids, well settled with a good bank balance and would have absolutely no problems even if he is grounded anytime.
Totally agreed with VIMANMAN,
most of those who scolded and admonished "tailwinds" are all wannabes who are yet to clear their exams and convert their licence and Im sure atleast 70% of people in this forum have resorted to paying under the table to get their Indian CPL or first job.
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Red questions that were asked by Arcane
Bold Vimanmans Answers
Quote:
I think I see this whole issue far differently than most respondents....
No "professional pilot" wants to brown nose, bribe, or kiss arse to get the job done, but In india...one HAS to....
What exactly is 'getting the job done' ? Bribing officials to expedite the issue of a license ? Bribing the right person in an airline to secure your first job ? I'm just curious because you come here, openly admit to have committed a crime and then have the gall to ask what the big deal is !
Getting the job done means just that, If you see Agent 123s post....he explains about an successful airline pilot in india who got the job done....when you are duly qualified (meaning having the hours and having passed the exams and whatever else is required as per DGCA norms) and still are not issued a Lic, because you dont grease the right palms....and then greasing the right palms......that means getting the job done....
And Arcane, if you havent done that yet.....you will, else your chances of having a long and successful career in india are slim to none....
Quote:
As a "professional pilot", does it make u less professional if you pay a bribe, brown nose or kiss arse.
[B]It kind of does...
If paying a bribe makes a pilot less "professional".....then I bet 80% of the pilots flying in India are not professional
[/B]
Quote:
One question
Is it worse to ask about robbing a bank....or to actually rob the bank.
That's a kind of silly analogy. Both you and the topic starter have admitted that you've bribed someone , ergo - the 'bank' has already been 'robbed'.
yes you are right....the bank has already been robbed....but my ? was.....is it worse to just query about robbing the bank.....or to actually rob the bank.
With all due respect Arcane, It seems you have not had to deal with the DGCA or Air Carriers in India very much.
I obviously do not know for sure.....just making an observation or inference based on the content of your post
Bold Vimanmans Answers
Quote:
I think I see this whole issue far differently than most respondents....
No "professional pilot" wants to brown nose, bribe, or kiss arse to get the job done, but In india...one HAS to....
What exactly is 'getting the job done' ? Bribing officials to expedite the issue of a license ? Bribing the right person in an airline to secure your first job ? I'm just curious because you come here, openly admit to have committed a crime and then have the gall to ask what the big deal is !
Getting the job done means just that, If you see Agent 123s post....he explains about an successful airline pilot in india who got the job done....when you are duly qualified (meaning having the hours and having passed the exams and whatever else is required as per DGCA norms) and still are not issued a Lic, because you dont grease the right palms....and then greasing the right palms......that means getting the job done....
And Arcane, if you havent done that yet.....you will, else your chances of having a long and successful career in india are slim to none....
Quote:
As a "professional pilot", does it make u less professional if you pay a bribe, brown nose or kiss arse.
[B]It kind of does...
If paying a bribe makes a pilot less "professional".....then I bet 80% of the pilots flying in India are not professional
[/B]
Quote:
One question
Is it worse to ask about robbing a bank....or to actually rob the bank.
That's a kind of silly analogy. Both you and the topic starter have admitted that you've bribed someone , ergo - the 'bank' has already been 'robbed'.
yes you are right....the bank has already been robbed....but my ? was.....is it worse to just query about robbing the bank.....or to actually rob the bank.
With all due respect Arcane, It seems you have not had to deal with the DGCA or Air Carriers in India very much.
I obviously do not know for sure.....just making an observation or inference based on the content of your post
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Brace For Impact...brace Brace Brace
I mean this whole industry is all about bribing and a$$ kissing.
Airlines bribe DGCA for various things (FATA for expats/Indians, expediting licences, to bend various rules like FDTL etc)
Airlines pay bribes to ministers/political parties for their benefit.
Airlines pay bribes to Newspapers to print sh!tty articles about their "massive expansion plans" and for other fake marketing purposes
Airlines bribe DGCA for various things (FATA for expats/Indians, expediting licences, to bend various rules like FDTL etc)
Airlines pay bribes to ministers/political parties for their benefit.
Airlines pay bribes to Newspapers to print sh!tty articles about their "massive expansion plans" and for other fake marketing purposes
bribe will not help because no jobs exists.
and all this started when government started making money in aviation .
2003 and onwards.
before it was
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Ok guys me myself I also think that a prestige of a pilot should be really high and a pilot should neither pay nor receive bribe. I really, really hate anykind of corruption and never tried to get inovlved in it, even I have delayed one of my aviation related project back home for 5 years so far becuase of this corruption. But I have always wanted to be a pilot and recently I came to change my dream to reality and I travelled a long distance unaware of anything (other apsects legal, school tuition, contracts, etc all settled) to a country which is called Philippines to get my pilot training. And here a pilot who has 10s of thousands of hours of flight was acting like ... me as a student pilot tried stop him and persuade him to grant some honor to his profession by saying this profession is not only about money it's about inspiration ..., it was really annoying me, but he kept on saying that being a pilot is all about money. And finally I was urged to pay him some cheese just to issue my student pilot license. Now what would you do in this kind of situation? I'm sure you can not tell me give up everything, you know the consequences yourself being in a foreing country, paid upfront shcool tuition, etc. But of course me myself I still grant honour to this profession and want to stay clear and will never intentionally pay to get my job done.l
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Tailwind35
Quote: I know how this industry works, so anyone in this forum please tell me who I should hump, or whos arse to kiss etc and how much to pay to get job with details. can negotiate but not more than 22-25 Lacs.
I have been flying for 26 years and must I say I seen the likes of you.
You think you know everything, just 250 hrs and you seem to know-all about the aviation industry. BTW, did you really fly or bought your licence? (Now, you are offended, but you didn't think you offended so many peope by your earlier comments.)
Oh, about the arse kissing part - my advice to you young boy, go kiss your arse goodbye.
Capt Lee
Quote: I know how this industry works, so anyone in this forum please tell me who I should hump, or whos arse to kiss etc and how much to pay to get job with details. can negotiate but not more than 22-25 Lacs.
I have been flying for 26 years and must I say I seen the likes of you.
You think you know everything, just 250 hrs and you seem to know-all about the aviation industry. BTW, did you really fly or bought your licence? (Now, you are offended, but you didn't think you offended so many peope by your earlier comments.)
Oh, about the arse kissing part - my advice to you young boy, go kiss your arse goodbye.
Capt Lee
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i dont know wht this drama is all about, everyone here knows tht we have to bribe to get things going.... corruption and aviation are like sun and earth, no matter how much u rotate(run) u have to face the sunlight at the end............tht too time to time!!!
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vimanman,
in case u didnt notice -though u did try very hard to engage everyone- the moment
the likes of u entered the debate, most self-respecting individuals withdrew. if sex
is taboo in india, i dont see it being done in the open in your yankeeland too. very
much restricted to the privacy of closed doors. similarly if u want to kiss someones arse,
hump or bribe someone as u and others did , please dont do it in full public view as the
rest of us here really dont think its going to be a wonderful sight to watch or hear. and
by the way, this youngster - who thinks he has arrived with his quality 250 hrs and
fathers money - asked u for some advice. we really didnt see u or the others supporting his cause, give him that advice and tell him exactly where to go to service the only u know who. could be that u did that by sending him a personal message, which would be the only responsible thing u would have done so far.
in case u didnt notice -though u did try very hard to engage everyone- the moment
the likes of u entered the debate, most self-respecting individuals withdrew. if sex
is taboo in india, i dont see it being done in the open in your yankeeland too. very
much restricted to the privacy of closed doors. similarly if u want to kiss someones arse,
hump or bribe someone as u and others did , please dont do it in full public view as the
rest of us here really dont think its going to be a wonderful sight to watch or hear. and
by the way, this youngster - who thinks he has arrived with his quality 250 hrs and
fathers money - asked u for some advice. we really didnt see u or the others supporting his cause, give him that advice and tell him exactly where to go to service the only u know who. could be that u did that by sending him a personal message, which would be the only responsible thing u would have done so far.
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Red = Baboos Post
BOLD= VIMANMANS Reply
vimanman,
In case u didnt notice -though u did try very hard to engage everyone- the moment
the likes of u entered the debate, most self-respecting individuals withdrew. if sex
is taboo in india, i dont see it being done in the open in your yankeeland too. very
much restricted to the privacy of closed doors. similarly if u want to kiss someones arse,
hump or bribe someone as u and others did , please dont do it in full public view as the
rest of us here really dont think its going to be a wonderful sight to watch or hear. and
by the way, this youngster - who thinks he has arrived with his quality 250 hrs and
fathers money - asked u for some advice. we really didnt see u or the others supporting his cause, give him that advice and tell him exactly where to go to service the only u know who. could be that u did that by sending him a personal message, which would be the only responsible thing u would have done so far.
I was only trying to engage those who were interested in being engaged.....All those self respecting individuals who chose not to participate, I applaud their decison as well.....
and as far as Tailwind goes....I did not send him a personal message....(but its actually not a bad idea....haha).
You are right about the Sex thing....Here in yankeeland, we also do it behind closed doors as you do in India, we just dont hide when asked about it.....
All I was saying was that I didnt feel Tailwinds ? was as off track as a lot of you did.....i actually kinda thought it was a relatively fair ?, regarding what the state of affairs in india is, but I do agree that he could have asked it in a more civilized or less crude manner.
Once again....thanx to all you Non "self respecting" folks who participated in this debate....
BOLD= VIMANMANS Reply
vimanman,
In case u didnt notice -though u did try very hard to engage everyone- the moment
the likes of u entered the debate, most self-respecting individuals withdrew. if sex
is taboo in india, i dont see it being done in the open in your yankeeland too. very
much restricted to the privacy of closed doors. similarly if u want to kiss someones arse,
hump or bribe someone as u and others did , please dont do it in full public view as the
rest of us here really dont think its going to be a wonderful sight to watch or hear. and
by the way, this youngster - who thinks he has arrived with his quality 250 hrs and
fathers money - asked u for some advice. we really didnt see u or the others supporting his cause, give him that advice and tell him exactly where to go to service the only u know who. could be that u did that by sending him a personal message, which would be the only responsible thing u would have done so far.
I was only trying to engage those who were interested in being engaged.....All those self respecting individuals who chose not to participate, I applaud their decison as well.....
and as far as Tailwind goes....I did not send him a personal message....(but its actually not a bad idea....haha).
You are right about the Sex thing....Here in yankeeland, we also do it behind closed doors as you do in India, we just dont hide when asked about it.....
All I was saying was that I didnt feel Tailwinds ? was as off track as a lot of you did.....i actually kinda thought it was a relatively fair ?, regarding what the state of affairs in india is, but I do agree that he could have asked it in a more civilized or less crude manner.
Once again....thanx to all you Non "self respecting" folks who participated in this debate....
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My thoughts not that they might matter much!
Its been a pretty heated thread to say the least... 
Well I too am a ’still wet behind the ears’ CPL holder with somewhere close to tradewinds’ experience... I sure don’t have the kind of money he has (though it would be nice to have it) but I guess I am in the same situation as him...
He has been pretty well reprimanded by all concerned for saying his piece, which fundamentally was not totally off the mark but his fault I guess was that he didn’t sugarcoat it or dress it nicely as we all have become used to...
His statement whether made as a joke or seriously; have a shock value and have clearly struck a chord which no one can deny...
I confess I do not know the industry too well,I am a junior and learning. My knowledge is based partly on second hand info (what I have heard from my seniors, peers and others in the industry in responsible positions) and from my limited experience with the DGCA. I do not go by what I read in Indian papers coz they; as most of us know call a aerobridge hitting a stationary aircraft "a life threatening accident" and "near death experience for passengers"…
I have been following the events that have been taking place in Indian aviation for a longtime now and have made some observations of mine that i would like to share with others.
Please bear in mind that what I am stating here is from my personal experience and from what I have seen in the last couple of years....
Fact is that in India we definitely have a 'holier than thou attitude' but we are open to bending rules to accommodate those who have influence be it with money or otherwise.
I guess we guys are hardwired that way, if we are told something cannot be done we don’t accept it as gospel, but go about trying to find ways around the hurdle, some call it our strength some our weakness. But at the end of the day what remains is that we DO BEND RULES to suit us.
I know of people clearing their written exams without appearing for them, people getting endorsements without the requisite hours/training and people getting into airlines simply because their parents/relatives are in positions of influence. To say to the contrary would be incorrect. But to paint everyone with the same brush is also wrong.
Fact: Paying will get your license without hassles. I was told by agents that they can speed up my work at the DGCA when I applied for my license conversion and some of my friends did "avail of this facility"!!
I didn’t have the cash; as it is since job offers weren’t exactly raining from the heavens I was in no rush and went through the official procedure. It took me little more than a month but yes I was made to run from pillar to post to get documents that did not seem to make any sense (can someone please tell me why the DGCA wants me to get my 10th standard board authority to give a letter saying I am more than 18 years old when my marksheet says so?? also isnt my passport proof enough?? 
) and my pals who used the agents didnt have to do a lot of this running around.
Fact: You do need some inside "help" to land that first job (more so in India because unless you are Chuck Yeager reborn you too have just the same 250 hours on cessnas like everyone else), but please tell me where in the world does this not happen? Even if you are in the States if you knew the chief pilot personally doesnt it give you an edge, even if it is simply his telling you what to expect in the interviews? Would you not say that it is unfair to candidates who do not know him??? I guess this happens everywhere only the degree varies. No system is perfect and like it or lump it its upto you...
As Vimanman mentioned about the AI's recent selection things were done that was not completely transparent. I too was disappointed but let’s be practical if it were a private airline I guess this would have been accepted without any hitch since they reserve absolute right to take who they want.
However this being a govt owned and operated airline people specially those like me expected some modicum of merit to be considered. 18 year olds were selected when Engg graduates were there, people with prop experience were not called for interview while those with just 10 hours of multi time were taken despite the ad saying grads and turbo prop will get preference.
FACT: Paying will get you the first job. Whether you pay for your own TR or for an agent. Consider paramount’s case. No one is saying that they are wrong in asking trainees to pay for their type rating but is it morally correct for them to milk the fresher simply because he is in a fix? Would they have dared to this back in 2003 when it was hard to get anyone? worldover the norm is (and please correct me if i am wrong) that an airline takes your after assessing your learning curve and then rating you and keeping you with them on a bond.. Eventually isn’t he going to work for them? Is paramount really so desperate for cash that it needs to resort to these schemes? Aren’t merit and competency again taking a hit in this?
Everyone here is going on and on about how pilots especially senior captains should be professional and set an example for the fresher. But where are these same captains when it comes to helping and mentoring the fresher?? I do not hear anything about them telling the airline that it’s not morally correct to squeeze a trainee or going even a small distance to help him out..
In India we are expected to build experience but with GA as good as nil how is one supposed to do that?? For years when the boom happened people were taken to A320 right seats with barely the ink dry on their licenses... This led to everyone with money and "the passion" to fly to go for their licenses abroad.
Now this lot is coming back to a situation where there are no jobs and the one recruitment that took place in a very long time was also not transparently done.. I do not for a moment say that people who got in are not good, but the manner in which this was done did more damage to the reputation and morale of the rest than any benefits the airline will ever accrue...This has led to a lot of heartburn in youngsters like me...
I am not trying to assign blame anywhere, things are how they are and those who are now searching for jobs will have to wait a long while for openings (if they did not take the pain to research and learn about the cyclic nature of aviation it’s their fault) but one expects a level playing field and not to be handicapped simply coz we don’t have the money or know some big shot...
I do believe that Tradewind crossed a certain line with his language but do not think that anything he has said was incorrect. So I would like to ask everyone who is not a pilot in India/aspiring to be a pilot in India or has dealt with the situation down here first hand please lets not judge tradewind or some of us on the basis of his first post alone. He is simply saying how we freshers with no 'godfather' to get any airline or major scope to improve our skill and knowledge in out own country are feeling; albeit without being politically correct…
I am open to constructive criticism and other points of view and these are solely my views maybe others have had better or worse experiences in India and I would like to welcome them to share it with us… after all isn’t that the whole point of having this forum…to find someone with more info, experience and knowledge to guide us???
Cheers
I live by a code and the code is simple…. Don’t hit something unless you plan to hit it and even then be gentle for heaven's sake!
Well I too am a ’still wet behind the ears’ CPL holder with somewhere close to tradewinds’ experience... I sure don’t have the kind of money he has (though it would be nice to have it) but I guess I am in the same situation as him...
He has been pretty well reprimanded by all concerned for saying his piece, which fundamentally was not totally off the mark but his fault I guess was that he didn’t sugarcoat it or dress it nicely as we all have become used to...
His statement whether made as a joke or seriously; have a shock value and have clearly struck a chord which no one can deny...
I confess I do not know the industry too well,I am a junior and learning. My knowledge is based partly on second hand info (what I have heard from my seniors, peers and others in the industry in responsible positions) and from my limited experience with the DGCA. I do not go by what I read in Indian papers coz they; as most of us know call a aerobridge hitting a stationary aircraft "a life threatening accident" and "near death experience for passengers"…
I have been following the events that have been taking place in Indian aviation for a longtime now and have made some observations of mine that i would like to share with others.
Please bear in mind that what I am stating here is from my personal experience and from what I have seen in the last couple of years....
Fact is that in India we definitely have a 'holier than thou attitude' but we are open to bending rules to accommodate those who have influence be it with money or otherwise.
I guess we guys are hardwired that way, if we are told something cannot be done we don’t accept it as gospel, but go about trying to find ways around the hurdle, some call it our strength some our weakness. But at the end of the day what remains is that we DO BEND RULES to suit us.
I know of people clearing their written exams without appearing for them, people getting endorsements without the requisite hours/training and people getting into airlines simply because their parents/relatives are in positions of influence. To say to the contrary would be incorrect. But to paint everyone with the same brush is also wrong.
Fact: Paying will get your license without hassles. I was told by agents that they can speed up my work at the DGCA when I applied for my license conversion and some of my friends did "avail of this facility"!!
I didn’t have the cash; as it is since job offers weren’t exactly raining from the heavens I was in no rush and went through the official procedure. It took me little more than a month but yes I was made to run from pillar to post to get documents that did not seem to make any sense (can someone please tell me why the DGCA wants me to get my 10th standard board authority to give a letter saying I am more than 18 years old when my marksheet says so?? also isnt my passport proof enough?? ) and my pals who used the agents didnt have to do a lot of this running around.Fact: You do need some inside "help" to land that first job (more so in India because unless you are Chuck Yeager reborn you too have just the same 250 hours on cessnas like everyone else), but please tell me where in the world does this not happen? Even if you are in the States if you knew the chief pilot personally doesnt it give you an edge, even if it is simply his telling you what to expect in the interviews? Would you not say that it is unfair to candidates who do not know him??? I guess this happens everywhere only the degree varies. No system is perfect and like it or lump it its upto you...
As Vimanman mentioned about the AI's recent selection things were done that was not completely transparent. I too was disappointed but let’s be practical if it were a private airline I guess this would have been accepted without any hitch since they reserve absolute right to take who they want.
However this being a govt owned and operated airline people specially those like me expected some modicum of merit to be considered. 18 year olds were selected when Engg graduates were there, people with prop experience were not called for interview while those with just 10 hours of multi time were taken despite the ad saying grads and turbo prop will get preference.
FACT: Paying will get you the first job. Whether you pay for your own TR or for an agent. Consider paramount’s case. No one is saying that they are wrong in asking trainees to pay for their type rating but is it morally correct for them to milk the fresher simply because he is in a fix? Would they have dared to this back in 2003 when it was hard to get anyone? worldover the norm is (and please correct me if i am wrong) that an airline takes your after assessing your learning curve and then rating you and keeping you with them on a bond.. Eventually isn’t he going to work for them? Is paramount really so desperate for cash that it needs to resort to these schemes? Aren’t merit and competency again taking a hit in this?
Everyone here is going on and on about how pilots especially senior captains should be professional and set an example for the fresher. But where are these same captains when it comes to helping and mentoring the fresher?? I do not hear anything about them telling the airline that it’s not morally correct to squeeze a trainee or going even a small distance to help him out..
In India we are expected to build experience but with GA as good as nil how is one supposed to do that?? For years when the boom happened people were taken to A320 right seats with barely the ink dry on their licenses... This led to everyone with money and "the passion" to fly to go for their licenses abroad.
Now this lot is coming back to a situation where there are no jobs and the one recruitment that took place in a very long time was also not transparently done.. I do not for a moment say that people who got in are not good, but the manner in which this was done did more damage to the reputation and morale of the rest than any benefits the airline will ever accrue...This has led to a lot of heartburn in youngsters like me...
I am not trying to assign blame anywhere, things are how they are and those who are now searching for jobs will have to wait a long while for openings (if they did not take the pain to research and learn about the cyclic nature of aviation it’s their fault) but one expects a level playing field and not to be handicapped simply coz we don’t have the money or know some big shot...
I do believe that Tradewind crossed a certain line with his language but do not think that anything he has said was incorrect. So I would like to ask everyone who is not a pilot in India/aspiring to be a pilot in India or has dealt with the situation down here first hand please lets not judge tradewind or some of us on the basis of his first post alone. He is simply saying how we freshers with no 'godfather' to get any airline or major scope to improve our skill and knowledge in out own country are feeling; albeit without being politically correct…
I am open to constructive criticism and other points of view and these are solely my views maybe others have had better or worse experiences in India and I would like to welcome them to share it with us… after all isn’t that the whole point of having this forum…to find someone with more info, experience and knowledge to guide us???
Cheers
I live by a code and the code is simple…. Don’t hit something unless you plan to hit it and even then be gentle for heaven's sake!
