Beijing PanAm - disrespect and humiliation of instructors
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Machiavellical thinking
Internship! what a crock of S
it!
So you fly for free instead of getting paid! what a racket! instead of paying the American FI let's not pay anything to the foreigner. I tell you there is some Machiavelli's in this world! (I know they have them in the pentagon but not in the civilian side!)
it!So you fly for free instead of getting paid! what a racket! instead of paying the American FI let's not pay anything to the foreigner. I tell you there is some Machiavelli's in this world! (I know they have them in the pentagon but not in the civilian side!)
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Flight Schools in Malaysia
Originally Posted by russsherwood
What kind of sick, twisted, demented flight school does not accept resumes via email ?!? They required you to post your CV by mail! What a bunch of ! (i dont think i want to work for a flight school that even has less common sense then P.A.)
! (i dont think i want to work for a flight school that even has less common sense then P.A.)
- Attitudes of Malays [<- right click]
- Malays do not like expats [<- right click]
- Priority reserve to the Malays [<- right click]
- Job for Malays [<- right click]
- Company run by Malays [<- right click]
1. MFA; post #45, #46, #22, #14
2. Asia Pacific Flight Training; post #11
An experienced aviation expert's valuable view in flight training environment in Malaysia. Read post #4, #13, #15
Next, kindly make full use the forum search engine in future! It is so useful!
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Basketball tickets
Hey, Just realized why the students got free tickets to see Yao Ming, one of his major sponsors is Garmin.. So don't worry it's not like the school paid for the tickets.
Also can someone start a thread with a list of all the companies(with contact details)that employ FI's in Asia. I think that would be handy for people looking at heading to this part of the world or people already here looking for other possibility's.
Also can someone start a thread with a list of all the companies(with contact details)that employ FI's in Asia. I think that would be handy for people looking at heading to this part of the world or people already here looking for other possibility's.
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Market Outlook
Originally Posted by russsherwood
Wll, from the links to comments above there is no doubt that MFA is some sort of nesting place. It was obvious from their website.Does anyone know any decent flight schools recruiting in Thailand ?
nesting place. It was obvious from their website.Does anyone know any decent flight schools recruiting in Thailand ? Have you joined hi5.com? Lots of Thai pilots available! Plenty of Thai flying instructors! You should know what I meant.
So, try the Philippines! The Philippines people love cauasians! The funny trend is that Filipino flying instructors love to works elsewhere rather than their own country.
Before becoming an FI, I am sure you know must to go through sickening ATO pilot licence conversion but much less hassle in other countries.
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Always Moving: It's an "H" class visa, which means it is a paid internship
This was supposed to be a thread with a lot of bitching about the PanAm scam, instead it became a resource for expat FI's looking for a job.
I suggest we start a new thread.
However, the Chinese are right: "just give the westerners more empty promises, and they'll stop bitching!"
So, where have all the original posters gone? Has PanAm really improved so quickly or have they cut their internet connections?!?
This was supposed to be a thread with a lot of bitching about the PanAm scam, instead it became a resource for expat FI's looking for a job.
I suggest we start a new thread.
However, the Chinese are right: "just give the westerners more empty promises, and they'll stop bitching!"
So, where have all the original posters gone? Has PanAm really improved so quickly or have they cut their internet connections?!?
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Chinese licence
Hello!
If you sign a new contract, you might get the permanent chinese licence.
If you don't sign: you will not get it.
This is call harmony!
After waiting 13 months to receive a chinese licence (remember that you passed all the written tests and flight tests), you have to decide if you want to play their game. It is called blackmail
The only reason is that they don't want you to be free of choosing a new employer.
There are so many in China, you can't really decide which one
Have a nice day!
Flytoo
If you sign a new contract, you might get the permanent chinese licence.
If you don't sign: you will not get it.
This is call harmony!
After waiting 13 months to receive a chinese licence (remember that you passed all the written tests and flight tests), you have to decide if you want to play their game. It is called blackmail
The only reason is that they don't want you to be free of choosing a new employer.
There are so many in China, you can't really decide which one
Have a nice day!
Flytoo
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Where are they?
Hi Spacepod life
You are asking where are all the people who started this thread?
Well I think they are either :
now too disgusted with this company that they dont want to discuss about it anymore, or
they have been "bought" by this company's promise to raise their salary by 1000 usd per month if they renewed their contract or
they have moved on to greener pastures
has panam recruited any new instructor since july 2007?
for those of us who have worked there, the ad panam has put on climbto350.com is laughable
panam has recently been emailing people who have worked there
they want them back!
do they also want the runners back? my guess is yes
has any of the people who left panam come back?
has anyone really been convinced by yet more empty promises and lies?
You are asking where are all the people who started this thread?
Well I think they are either :
now too disgusted with this company that they dont want to discuss about it anymore, or
they have been "bought" by this company's promise to raise their salary by 1000 usd per month if they renewed their contract or
they have moved on to greener pastures
has panam recruited any new instructor since july 2007?
for those of us who have worked there, the ad panam has put on climbto350.com is laughable
panam has recently been emailing people who have worked there
they want them back!
do they also want the runners back? my guess is yes
has any of the people who left panam come back?
has anyone really been convinced by yet more empty promises and lies?
Last edited by johnnie pilot; 18th Sep 2007 at 04:19.
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How is the operation in WuHai (乌海) going? Military, ATC, and Weather, issues?
Additionally, what is the location like? The people, students, city, nightlife, off duty activities etc?
Additionally, what is the location like? The people, students, city, nightlife, off duty activities etc?
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Unfair?
MR WOOD!
So You think is unfair? so The company spends on you a few thousand dollards in converting your license (lets say around 8K USD) and then you see unfair for the company to share on the next contract the money that they would of have to spend (or save if they keep the pilot) on another pilot?
Perfect example than when 2 people look at the same situation they see it differently.
I think is GREAT the only good decesion made by PanAm.
What do you care wht other people get paid? if you are getting paid wht it was agree upon! (little baby craying whawhawha I want what the other little baby has whawhawha)
The holding of license, medical book, Forign expert and letter of dismisal upon leaving is not only bad manners, it is ilegal! but you did gave them your foreign expert didn't you?
And the standoff I will believe it when I see it happening ther is too many leaches in this world and more in Aviation if not why are we paying for TR when there is a need for pilots?
So You think is unfair? so The company spends on you a few thousand dollards in converting your license (lets say around 8K USD) and then you see unfair for the company to share on the next contract the money that they would of have to spend (or save if they keep the pilot) on another pilot?
Perfect example than when 2 people look at the same situation they see it differently.
I think is GREAT the only good decesion made by PanAm.
What do you care wht other people get paid? if you are getting paid wht it was agree upon! (little baby craying whawhawha I want what the other little baby has whawhawha)
The holding of license, medical book, Forign expert and letter of dismisal upon leaving is not only bad manners, it is ilegal! but you did gave them your foreign expert didn't you?
And the standoff I will believe it when I see it happening ther is too many leaches in this world and more in Aviation if not why are we paying for TR when there is a need for pilots?
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just a question
Hi Always Moving!
Could you explain:
the holding of license, medical book, Forign expert certificate and letter of dismisal upon leaving is illegal?
Why? tell us details about it, please!
Have happy landings
Flytoo
Could you explain:
the holding of license, medical book, Forign expert certificate and letter of dismisal upon leaving is illegal?
Why? tell us details about it, please!
Have happy landings
Flytoo
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WHY?
Because they are stealing something that is of your ownership.
Letter of dismissal. By law after leaving a company they have to give you a latter of dismissal (or so I have been explain)
The medical book (the brown one) because is yours and you will need it to do any more medicals in China. Same for the foreign expert certificate and it says so in the document and the license.....
Now the Chinese might have a different view on this (like, Hell! I paid for them they are mine....)
I recommend before you leave to ask for all of that back!
Letter of dismissal. By law after leaving a company they have to give you a latter of dismissal (or so I have been explain)
The medical book (the brown one) because is yours and you will need it to do any more medicals in China. Same for the foreign expert certificate and it says so in the document and the license.....
Now the Chinese might have a different view on this (like, Hell! I paid for them they are mine....)
I recommend before you leave to ask for all of that back!
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My Two Cents Worth
Always Moving is correct, and I will give you a little more detail as you requested.
A Pilot or Flight Instructor Certificate is issued by the governing authority, which in this case, is the CAAC. The ratings issued on that certificate is a "privilege", and not a "right." If you read the regulations carefully, you will see that the certificate "must" be in your personal possession, or readily accessable in the aircraft when utilizing the "privileges" of that certificate.
The CAAC, may, supercede, suspend, or revoke ANY certificate issued by them, but even this does not happen overnight. There is a process that must be followed.
No where, and I repeat "NO WHERE" on that pilot certificate does it say "Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy." PanAm does not have ANY right, whatsoever, to hold any certificate issued by the CAAC. It does not say "issued to BPIAA", or "issued by BPIAA."
Furthermore, a Temporary Certificate is ONLY valid for 120 days. Now, the CAAC can continue issuing Temporaries until Hell freezes over; nothing anyone can do about that, but you cannont legally "exercise the privileges of that certificate" if it is expired; read the regs!
The same applies to the medical certificates; they are issued to YOU; NOT Beijing PanAm.
After spending 8 years in the FAA, I'm pretty well versed in the regulations, but I won't even begin to touch this "Foreign Expert Certificate Issue." Regardless what SOME individuals feel I DID'NT DO with regard to this issue, be advised MY CERTIFICATE was surrendered, also.
I will echo what Always Moving has said; If PanAm is holding your certificate, it is illegal and should be reported to the proper authorities; in this case, the CAAC. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT, as a CAAC Certificate Holder, to forward a complaint to the CAAC; even if you're a foreigner.
I am currently dealing with them on some issues that occured in the past through a FAA Liason that has direct access to CAAC Headquarters, and the process is proceeding well. If PanAm holds ANYONE'S certificate, please PM me and I will give you the name and email of the Representative I'm dealing with, and he can get you in contact with the appropriate CAAC Inspector.
Good Luck to all of you.
Howard
A Pilot or Flight Instructor Certificate is issued by the governing authority, which in this case, is the CAAC. The ratings issued on that certificate is a "privilege", and not a "right." If you read the regulations carefully, you will see that the certificate "must" be in your personal possession, or readily accessable in the aircraft when utilizing the "privileges" of that certificate.
The CAAC, may, supercede, suspend, or revoke ANY certificate issued by them, but even this does not happen overnight. There is a process that must be followed.
No where, and I repeat "NO WHERE" on that pilot certificate does it say "Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy." PanAm does not have ANY right, whatsoever, to hold any certificate issued by the CAAC. It does not say "issued to BPIAA", or "issued by BPIAA."
Furthermore, a Temporary Certificate is ONLY valid for 120 days. Now, the CAAC can continue issuing Temporaries until Hell freezes over; nothing anyone can do about that, but you cannont legally "exercise the privileges of that certificate" if it is expired; read the regs!
The same applies to the medical certificates; they are issued to YOU; NOT Beijing PanAm.
After spending 8 years in the FAA, I'm pretty well versed in the regulations, but I won't even begin to touch this "Foreign Expert Certificate Issue." Regardless what SOME individuals feel I DID'NT DO with regard to this issue, be advised MY CERTIFICATE was surrendered, also.
I will echo what Always Moving has said; If PanAm is holding your certificate, it is illegal and should be reported to the proper authorities; in this case, the CAAC. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT, as a CAAC Certificate Holder, to forward a complaint to the CAAC; even if you're a foreigner.
I am currently dealing with them on some issues that occured in the past through a FAA Liason that has direct access to CAAC Headquarters, and the process is proceeding well. If PanAm holds ANYONE'S certificate, please PM me and I will give you the name and email of the Representative I'm dealing with, and he can get you in contact with the appropriate CAAC Inspector.
Good Luck to all of you.
Howard
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thank you!
Thank you for the info!
I agree totally with you two guys, Ex-Fed and Always moving!
Just wanted to see it written on pprune to inform everybody, working or not at BPIAA.
Have good flights, wherever you are at the present time!
Flytoo
I agree totally with you two guys, Ex-Fed and Always moving!
Just wanted to see it written on pprune to inform everybody, working or not at BPIAA.
Have good flights, wherever you are at the present time!
Flytoo
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Still trying to make sense
MR Wood. I am not in my second or third contract I left PanAm last year.
I agree that are pissing off people left and right and that they have no idea of what they are doing.
But the money thing really! what do you care what other people get paid!
And people leaving for better paid jobs? there are not that many and definitely not flying like you say "real planes" you will be happy if you can by a beer after paying your bills.
Sure Ayala pays better and sure JTFA has a better lifestyle but with the attitude you seem to have you will always wondering that somebody else is getting pay more. If you do not like my tone of voice is too bad, but I am not loosing any sleep over it.
And I do not want to turn this into a pissing contest.
By the way those validations ARE ILLEGAL (hmm$$$$$hmmm)
I agree that are pissing off people left and right and that they have no idea of what they are doing.
But the money thing really! what do you care what other people get paid!
And people leaving for better paid jobs? there are not that many and definitely not flying like you say "real planes" you will be happy if you can by a beer after paying your bills.
Sure Ayala pays better and sure JTFA has a better lifestyle but with the attitude you seem to have you will always wondering that somebody else is getting pay more. If you do not like my tone of voice is too bad, but I am not loosing any sleep over it.
And I do not want to turn this into a pissing contest.
By the way those validations ARE ILLEGAL (hmm$$$$$hmmm)
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UFFF
Yo MR. Wood.
Why do I care, hmm let's just said I am involved. "perhaps not"
Hey can somebody tell me who is this Mr. Wood and if it is worth even spend my time.
By the way I do not care how much people get paid, I take it in consideration for my next contract but I do not complain if my employer pays me what I agree by contract. You can complain, bitch and moan before you sign the next one but if they are paying you what they and you agree (and I suppose you have a contract that you sign!) I still do not understand it if you get paid what the 2 parties agree.
Your explanation is far for logical. I do not consider myself an idiot neither a genius I will say a fairly normal, but the more I deal with people the more of above normal I start to consider myself.
And by the way this is a anonymous forum (we have a lot of people who are friends and we know who is who) but if I have to put name and number I will have to charge! (I am willing to give advice for money seriously! if you pay the plane ticket I even go to Bauto and tell you in person.)
ALEX you are loving this aren't you!
Why do I care, hmm let's just said I am involved. "perhaps not"
Hey can somebody tell me who is this Mr. Wood and if it is worth even spend my time.
By the way I do not care how much people get paid, I take it in consideration for my next contract but I do not complain if my employer pays me what I agree by contract. You can complain, bitch and moan before you sign the next one but if they are paying you what they and you agree (and I suppose you have a contract that you sign!) I still do not understand it if you get paid what the 2 parties agree.
Your explanation is far for logical. I do not consider myself an idiot neither a genius I will say a fairly normal, but the more I deal with people the more of above normal I start to consider myself.
And by the way this is a anonymous forum (we have a lot of people who are friends and we know who is who) but if I have to put name and number I will have to charge! (I am willing to give advice for money seriously! if you pay the plane ticket I even go to Bauto and tell you in person.)
ALEX you are loving this aren't you!
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Wow Russ, seems like your starting to go a bit crazy...
Kinda like me! HAHAHAHAHA
When I left Pan Am in August, it was probably one of the best decisions I could have made. I really did enjoy visiting China... but for me, staying there for 10 months (while only flying for the last 3) was a waste of my life.
It is truely a shame that Pan Am has piss-poor management with crap-for-brains. There are several sub-management employees that really try hard but it seems the managers (and those with the title but no job responsibility-- IE, Bike Manager - Handan) just cause havok on themselves.. and the worst part is they don't see it happening. That generally tells you one of two things.. either they know something you don't (which generally will be a) unsafe; b) illegal; c) unethical; d) all of the above) and it's in the works behind the foreigners backs, or there is no backup and when 10% of the remaining instructors decide to put up with the BS and stay a 2nd contract leave.
China has such potential in becoming a great place to fly.. but there are several issues that need to be seriously fixed, and that lays beyond just Pan Am. The CAAC needs more of an overhaul than any prop-strike'd DA40 owned by Pan Am. Corruption needs to be eliminated, policy must be enforced, and procedures must be developed and maintained. That goes for every department, from training, to licensing, and so forth and etc to the end. But right now, as far as I have seen, China does not communicate with itself. Departments are head over heels, and never know who does what, who is who, or what anyone's job description really is. Most likely, the CAAC does not have an organizational chart, and if they did, it would probably be impossible to update on a regular basis because the person who maintained it would probably have to be promoted to "Organizational Chart Manager."
The other thing is the military has got to let go of the airspace. I can not think of too many other countries that is so afraid of itself. In my opinion, the United States Air Force is one of the most powerful Air Forces in the world.. however that doesn't restrict the US Airspace one bit. Sure there are MOA's, CFA's, Prohibited Areas, Warning Areas, etc... but they are properly mapped, coordinated between civilian agencies, and have suffecient communication when active/inactive with the FSS stations and ATC. Why can't China do the same? They already copied the FAA's FAR word for word (minus the conversions needed for US-measurement to metric). I mean come on, they use the Australian CASA ATP test for their own! They have nothing original; everything they have is a rip-off of another country, going to show you that China has much to learn before it's airspace is ever considered an Open Sky.
Since moving back into FAA controlled airspace, I have flown my Cherokee 6 within 3 miles of a KC135 at low altitudes and 2 miles from Asiana Airbus' and Northwest's Airbus'. However in China, they require 15KM seperation.. completely ridiculous, unless you fly in a city where the average visibility is 3KM, mainly due to pollution... way below VFR minimums in any other country.. Oh but wait there is no VFR, it's all IMC training so go ahead and go anyways..
Anyways, I apologize for writing this novel...
Even after I left Pan Am, their condition seems to be deteriorating. Derek Butler and Joe Moran both said, Pan Am takes 1 step forward, and 5 steps back. Most likely, until the Chinese Military changes, the CAAC changes, and Pan Am changes.. any foreigner still working there will only be pulling his/her hair out over the frustration that Chinese management creates.
I hope that after a few recent events regarding flight safety, all of you still with Pan Am still flying, really look after yourselves and never compromise your safety for them. All you guys in Wuhai have 8 students, partially because of me. But if you think it's great you have 14 hour duty days and you're here complaining about it, then you should have done something about it.. When I started flying in Wuhai, I went from flying 7-8 hours a day with 5 of my students to 3 flights a day. My body couldn't handle it, and no amount of money could change that. You need to stand up for what you believe in, and what you know needs to be done, instead of posting on this forum or any other forum about how much you hate Pan Am. We already know you do; so why are you still with them?
Nick
Kinda like me! HAHAHAHAHA
When I left Pan Am in August, it was probably one of the best decisions I could have made. I really did enjoy visiting China... but for me, staying there for 10 months (while only flying for the last 3) was a waste of my life.
It is truely a shame that Pan Am has piss-poor management with crap-for-brains. There are several sub-management employees that really try hard but it seems the managers (and those with the title but no job responsibility-- IE, Bike Manager - Handan) just cause havok on themselves.. and the worst part is they don't see it happening. That generally tells you one of two things.. either they know something you don't (which generally will be a) unsafe; b) illegal; c) unethical; d) all of the above) and it's in the works behind the foreigners backs, or there is no backup and when 10% of the remaining instructors decide to put up with the BS and stay a 2nd contract leave.
China has such potential in becoming a great place to fly.. but there are several issues that need to be seriously fixed, and that lays beyond just Pan Am. The CAAC needs more of an overhaul than any prop-strike'd DA40 owned by Pan Am. Corruption needs to be eliminated, policy must be enforced, and procedures must be developed and maintained. That goes for every department, from training, to licensing, and so forth and etc to the end. But right now, as far as I have seen, China does not communicate with itself. Departments are head over heels, and never know who does what, who is who, or what anyone's job description really is. Most likely, the CAAC does not have an organizational chart, and if they did, it would probably be impossible to update on a regular basis because the person who maintained it would probably have to be promoted to "Organizational Chart Manager."
The other thing is the military has got to let go of the airspace. I can not think of too many other countries that is so afraid of itself. In my opinion, the United States Air Force is one of the most powerful Air Forces in the world.. however that doesn't restrict the US Airspace one bit. Sure there are MOA's, CFA's, Prohibited Areas, Warning Areas, etc... but they are properly mapped, coordinated between civilian agencies, and have suffecient communication when active/inactive with the FSS stations and ATC. Why can't China do the same? They already copied the FAA's FAR word for word (minus the conversions needed for US-measurement to metric). I mean come on, they use the Australian CASA ATP test for their own! They have nothing original; everything they have is a rip-off of another country, going to show you that China has much to learn before it's airspace is ever considered an Open Sky.
Since moving back into FAA controlled airspace, I have flown my Cherokee 6 within 3 miles of a KC135 at low altitudes and 2 miles from Asiana Airbus' and Northwest's Airbus'. However in China, they require 15KM seperation.. completely ridiculous, unless you fly in a city where the average visibility is 3KM, mainly due to pollution... way below VFR minimums in any other country.. Oh but wait there is no VFR, it's all IMC training so go ahead and go anyways..
Anyways, I apologize for writing this novel...
Even after I left Pan Am, their condition seems to be deteriorating. Derek Butler and Joe Moran both said, Pan Am takes 1 step forward, and 5 steps back. Most likely, until the Chinese Military changes, the CAAC changes, and Pan Am changes.. any foreigner still working there will only be pulling his/her hair out over the frustration that Chinese management creates.
I hope that after a few recent events regarding flight safety, all of you still with Pan Am still flying, really look after yourselves and never compromise your safety for them. All you guys in Wuhai have 8 students, partially because of me. But if you think it's great you have 14 hour duty days and you're here complaining about it, then you should have done something about it.. When I started flying in Wuhai, I went from flying 7-8 hours a day with 5 of my students to 3 flights a day. My body couldn't handle it, and no amount of money could change that. You need to stand up for what you believe in, and what you know needs to be done, instead of posting on this forum or any other forum about how much you hate Pan Am. We already know you do; so why are you still with them?
Nick
Last edited by nijiggajigga; 24th Sep 2007 at 11:11.