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Beijing PanAm - disrespect and humiliation of instructors
Hey guys. For you who are planning to work for Beijing PanAm in the future here is some new info that may change your mind!!! This week, two flight instructors who performed every single required job related task, test, and training to become operational Flight instructors in China has been fired.:uhoh: Those guys and numerous others have been waiting for an extremely long time for the arrival of the CAAC commercial pilot license that allows them to perform the flying duties as instructors (some have been waiting for more then four month). An important point that is worth mentioning is that while waiting for their license after having passed both Chinese written and flight tests, they were not allowed to start performing any flying duties as others have recently been allowed to do. Flight instructors have been told that having a "validation" of the foreign certifications as well as passing both written and flying tests is required before any flight duties are to be allowed. This information can be referenced by reading PanAm contract under "Schedule 1, Qualifications."(By the way, the contract here worth nothing). In spite of passing all CAAC examinations, they have not been allowed to fly. On the contrary, we have heard of and witnessed newly hired instructors that have not yet passed all the required tests still obtain validations of their Foreign Certificates and be given the opportunity to start flying. While others have waited in good faith and watched their hard-won skills deteriorate over time, these newly hired instructors have started flying and instructing as quickly as 2 months after their initial arrival at Beijing PanAm.:ugh: Beijing PanAm has not respected the contract and also has been ignored with no consideration given to priority delegated by seniority towards flying duties. The reason for being fired was that they refused to move to another base until they will get their license. since they can't fly at other base why should they move and teach ground school all day long (as they did until now) when they have been defined under the contract as flight instructors and not ground instructors . The guys have been fired because they are too good for the company, sounds weird :eek:? Well this is china and that's how things work here. Beijing PanAm terminated their contract and kicked them out of the hotel while refusing to fulfill the contract terms. Basically they didn't get anything that was in the contract and had to find their own way back home, embarrassed, angry and without any money for the flight ticket. Guys, Beijing PanAm are the most corrupt company in Asia and probably all over the world ,People are leaving every month and there is no more new instructor on the way. We should all fight against this corrupt company to prevent that kind of incident to be repeated in the future, Think twice, before you apply for this job. Shai2000 |
Lies lies lies...
Since when does BPIAA issue licences? How long have you been there to actually believe this ****? If you want to complain about anything or anyone, that should be starting with the CAAC. Of course you were not allowed to start flying with students, you don't have a CAAC licence, validation ,verification, temporary or permanent! But I guess, from what it seems in your thread, that's not the issue... And as far as I know, you are still staying in the hotel... not been kicked out as you say. If you want to post a thread, especially when you advertise yourself as preaching the truth, make sure you actually do so! And regarding contract compliance, maybe you should read it again, or not have signed it from the begining. You have been reported as one of the laziest guy out there, so stop complaining to a company that keeps on paying you full salary while you are doing absolutelly nothing. Oh, and by the way, I hear there are still new instructors coming... I will not post any other thread on this, I've got better things to do and students to teach.
V. |
Lies? Really?
Hey, V, maybe YOU should get your facts straight before posting a reply. Are you one of the brain-washed, inexperienced employees they promoted with promises of grandure, King Air's and Citations? I can guarantee you instructors came here well after these guys that did not have to pass any written test or check ride that are instructing! The Bautou Base is full of these guys.
Lazy? Give me a break. Maybe you should talk to the students who went to the US as to their laziness. Remember the countless hours these guys spent working with them on their english skills to prepare them for the FAA tests? Remember the sh%$hole they got dumped in at Handan that a rat couldn't survive in? If I got lied to as much as the chinese management lies to the instructors here, I wouldn't work so much as lifting a finger either. I know for a fact that Howard authorized extensions in hotels and authorized airline tickets home to instructors he personally terminated. At least he had a little compassion for those guys after the way they were treated by the chinese. At least when he and Pat were in charge, the instructors were give a little respect. You don't throw a dog into the streets, dude!! Unless of course your Panam chinese management. Avoid this company at all costs!!! Everything they tell you is a lie! Believe the corruption, because it is alive and well here. Believe what you hear about the 500 hour pilot in command of the Citation that falsified logbook records for military students and his own medical certificate! He is protected by the chinese staff and building jet time every day. Mr. V, do you deny these facts? Please reply with your views on this subject. Please tell the truth! Instructors are leaving this place by the dozens. The contract is worthless, and you have no protection whatsoever. For those of you still here, get out while you still can; I am! Jobs are abundant now. You don't have to deal with this corruption any longer. For those thinking about coming to Panam; don't even consider it as an option. |
i got an invitation 2 yeas ago by panam to come and teach.
after reading comments by canadian pilots, you want run far away. you work 16h a day for less 2000$. 5$ an hour? |
Instructors
Reading Flight and Aviation job search I see Clark aviation is looking for flight instructors and simulator instructors for MCC and LOFT on the new MPL program. They also have a A320 FFS made by CAE so chances maybe of getting jet time on the sim or even a rating.
pfd99 |
Good luck Shai2000
hello Ladies and gentlemen!
The rumor is that a school in Jordan is coming to China to interview about 20 instructors from Beijing Panam this month. True or false?? Anybody has infos about it? It will be a major kill if half of them leave for greener pastures. New openings for the ones staying in China, soon you get a senior flight instructor position with a PPL only! take care Shai2000 and have a nice training! Flytoo |
Panam rumors
Flytoo
How can you spread such ridiculous rumors about a representative from a jordanian school coming all the way from jordan to baotou to interview 20 instructors? Who in their right minds would do such a thing? Let me tell you straight, you are wrong, it is not 20 but 30 instructors who are going to have an interview with the jordanian flight school rep. A special conference room has already been booked in the poshest hotel in baotou, where the interviews and the screening process will take place. As to the qualifications required you mentioned let me tell you that you are wrong again: an ICAO PPL holder will be at least manager of flight standards. Actually the current manager of flight standards in baotou has NO multi engine experience, he failed all his written exams and of course he did not even pass his CAAC flight check ride. Yet he will be soon trained on the king air. But he his very good mates with the chief flight instructor there, who will be trained on the king air with NO multi engine time, and 2000 hours on ultralights. The same chief flight instructor has already re-written the king air sop's. See you in jordan! Captainred |
Rumors are rumors and running....
Hello !
Like I said, it is a rumor! And this site is exactly the place for rumors. The facts are that the CFI is going to come to China for interviews. Will it be in Beijing or Baotou? When? How many will be interviewed and leave? many questions: answers will come later, patience is always required! Have nice flights in St Maartens! Or Curuacao! say hello to the islands! take care and tot zins, Flytoo |
The Rumor's Have It!!!
Dude, you are so right! Do you think I could get a job as a dispatcher? I don't have any experience, but I think I'd make a great dispatch manager. Maybe after kissing the right person's a$$, I could advance to lead mechanic. I have lot's of experience working on bicycles in the streets of Shijiazhuang. :ugh:
If the rumor is true about this Jordan interview, count me as number 31!! Who's the contact, Dude? |
The following is not a rumor
The following is not a rumor
Two of the most senior BPIAA instructors have just been fired. Why? They have reported, as they are supposed to do, maintenance problems on the aeroplane they fly. Beware BPIAA instructors: dispatch, "leaders", maintenance, they are all against us. Mass resignations, mass firings, mass exodus to jordan. This company is commiting suicide. I wonder if it's not on purpose... |
Heavens
Come to think of it, that's four instructors fired in less than a week's time.
Who's next? Run before you get the axe! |
It now seems that the two senior instructors already mentioned are the two king air pilots.
What is the company trying to tell us? Falsify log books, suck up to the right people and you will have a brilliant future with us? Work hard, be honest, stick around, and you will be fired because you report the problems you find on the airplane you fly. What kind of a company are we working for? How far will this go? I have already made up my mind. I am not waiting for the people to come from Jordan, I am flying there to meet the chief pilot in person. |
Maintenance problems
I could not agree more with Higher/Faster.
One of Panam manager was once heard to say during a meeting: fly the aeroplane until it breaks:D Some time ago a pilot went to ask maintenance if they could add oil in the engine of his da40 only to be told, no it doesn't need oil.:ugh: As to the manager of the high performance department, higher/faster is right again. By doing this he is actively supporting panam's slack attitude towards maintenance and flight safety. I hope that person is fully prepared to accept the entire responsibilty of his actions. |
I am no friend of PanAm and I believe the feeling is mutual, but do consider the King Air pilots are not the angels portrayed in this thread.
These are the same two pilot who flew more than 3 months with the above airplane issues without complaint, and only after being reprimanded for continual deviation from regulations, did they decide to write up the aircraft. Sounds very safety conscious to me or at least logbook conscious. This is more likely the reason for the grounding. One of these two has had to write more reports to the CAAC for constantly being off course, off altitude and generally off center than the entire instructor staff combined. Which probably cost the company 2000 packs of Chinese cigarettes and Chinese liquor from the company's bribery slush fund. These two fine airmen were also overheard discussing low intelligence of new instructors and their inability to pass the CAAC written test, which has changed significantly since these two had taken the test. One of the was reprimanded for purposely spinning an airplane not certified for spins, and then lied to try and cover it up. You know who you are cowboy;) PanAm is full of problems, I'm certain this thread can continue indefinitely, so good luck to all you with interviews scheduled. Hope to see you there. |
And the truth will set you free
Hmmm...good point. I'm curious about this remark from Higher/Faster;
"It has been reported many times that the pressurization system is leaking considerably, that the oxygen system is doubtful, that the avionics are unusable in flight, other than a GPS 5 or 6 years outdated in a country where GPS as the only means of navigation is not authorized, that the compass is unreliable and probably more!!!" Where's the safety issue here, much less the regulatory issue, ie; inoperative instruments and equipment? Reported "many times", yet our two EXPERIENCED, PROFESSIONAL KING AIR PILOTS continued to fly the airplane! What were you thinking, guys? Build that turbine time...I'm indestructable because I can fly a King Air. The hell with my passengers; they can suffocate if the pressurization system fails. I knew there was more to this than what was being posted on here. My opinion, they should be tried for attempted murder!! |
smells like.....sniff sniff.....BS
CaptainRed,
You are a moron. I don't know how many examples I can give, of how much of a complete spastic you are...but let me give it a go... You said: The following is not a rumor Two of the most senior BPIAA instructors have just been fired. This company has a bad enough rep without twits like you jumping to conclusions like this. Beware BPIAA instructors: dispatch, "leaders", maintenance, they are all against us. They arent against us, the unfortunate fact is....they are just like you - retarded. Mass resignations, mass firings, mass exodus to jordan. This company is commiting suicide. I wonder if it's not on purpose... Mass exodus to jordan? We'll see...but not yet. For someone who claims to live in the Caribbean, I would of at least thought you could spell the damn word properly. There have been valid points made on this thread, if you want to make one of your own - then at least get your facts straight before you fire off your BS to the aviation community. I hope to christ that you bugger off to Jordan. Failing that, I will see you on Wednesday. :( |
Situation Will Never Change.
I must say it is interesting to see these threads develope. It is quite amusing when you go back about a year through the threads on this subject (Panam). Some posts that were written by people planning to go to Panam accused Panam instructors of being negative and ungreatful. Now these people are at Panam and now they realise that what was said is true! But good on you for having the guts to go there and give it a go. If you dont try then you never know!
I know that for some people who read them it is difficult for them to comprehend that what is being said is in fact true. For those who have not been in the Panam situation you cannot possible comprehend it! For those who have never worked at Panam don't just think these instructors are being negative or ungreatful. That is not the case at all. I know people tend to become emotive when they have just lost their job and been humiliated and yeah... maybe their view of things is not exactly straight and could be somewhat bias. But read between the lines. People would not be so stupid as to make up a bunch of lies. Look at what the majority of posts are saying. In my experience ..... I was one of the first instructors at Panam in September 2004. We were all excited about the prospects of being the first certified foreign instructors ever in China. We had high hopes for the company and for ourselves with the airlines in China. We were told we would be flying 120+ hours a month and that as a senior instructor most of the time would be a King Air ;) AND after one year we would get the chance at the right hand seat of an A320. Once we started flying things started to go down like a lead balloon. We were expected to go flying with shocking visibility no VFR maps, no IFR charts, no security passes and no Chinese licence. Immediately corners started to be cut and instructors were being asked to sign things off in logbooks that had not been completed. By far most of the instructors refused to do so. Many instructors waited more than 6 months for their licences .... I personally waited for more than one year and was NEVER issued a Chinese licence despite passing three flight tests and the written exams first go. We started to see extremely low hour pilots appear on the scene and be put in management positions. Some of these inexperienced pilots wanted to (and did) go flying in extreme icing conditions in aircraft with no de icing equipment. Those who spoke out against such things were labelled as being "LAZY" and "Unproductive" and it was decided that it was up to the CFI's discretion whether we flew in icing conditions. People who flew in conditions below the CAAC met minima with no alternate and at night were openly promoted despite the breeches of safety within 4 hours of the first CFI resigning. Things have even got worse since then :=. Those who falsify training records,make false entries in logbook using other peoples licence details and forging their signatures (I know for a fact my licence details were used and signature was forged to falsify logbooks and training records for training that was not even done), those who send other people to represent themselves for a medical check and those who have near miss with a 737 are promoted and given a Citation rating despite them having less hours and experience than your average PPL. I remember one time I refused to fly in icing conditions when the forcaste viz was 3000m reducing below 1000m. The "ALL KNOWING" dispatcher told me "But you must fly". When I refused to fly the dispatcher then went to one of the directors and asked that I be fired for "Being Lazy". The safety issues were too endless to list. It was like living in a mad house. When the DA42s came things got even worse:} ... I saw instructors almost getting into fist fights over places on the list to just to get a flight in them. I remember thinking at one point "If a$$ holes were aircraft I could easily be mistaken and think I was working at a flight school" It would get to the point where you think "This cant possibly get any worse" .... and then it would :eek:! I was eventually fired from Panam too for my refusal to fly without a Chinese licence and bringing to the attention of management matter concerning safety. For me it was the best thing that they could have done for me. It got me out of a diabolical situation. I was much better out off there. Things at Panam will never change. You are dealing with a totally different mentality. The Chinese do not think the same as us "Laowei" (Foreigners). The Chinese management will continue do the things the way they want to do them. They will continue to put people in management positions that they can manipulate. That is how it will always be .. that is the Chinese way. Look at China's history and communism. It is ABSOLUTE CONTROL ... for some Chinese that is all they have known and that is all that they know to do! Trying to change it is like banging you head against the great wall of China.:ugh: So to those have been fired, those who will be fired, those who of you who have been cheated and lied to and stabbed in the back colleagues. Don't let Panam poison your view of China! Don't let Panam break you, don't let it get you angry and bitter ... Dont let Panam win! Take a step back from the situation and look at things objectively. Take the positive aspects of the experience and be thankful. Take the negative experiences and let it make you a stronger person so you can move on in life more prepared. And to those who are thinking of going to Panam to work. My advice is think very hard before you make a decision. Do your home work. Read the threads and get in touch with those that are there. Make an informed decision. And if you read the threads on here about Panam and think "NO way! it cant be as bad as that" ... you would be right! It is not as bad as that .... it is worse :}! |
a general reply
Dear Harry Pothead, Imotep, ZBOWor Die,
Let me reply to you. First harry pothead's location is very interesting: you are using the name of an instructor, a man who is currently working for Panam. You are mentioning that you are staying in a lower part if his body. Have you ever imagined that he may read this post? What will he think? What will his friends and family think? You are using insults in order to try and justify yourself. Here are some of the words that are being used: moron, retarded, christ, hell, angels, attempted murder. Not really what one would call sound and rational argumentation, but more like personal hatred. Those 2 people you mention always make their opinions known. How many times did they tell management about problems and issues? They will probably be fired... for what reason? For reporting maintenance problems? Everytime this airplane has had a problem, that problem has always been reported. But it seems that this time it was too much for the head of maintenance who is also a vice president and manager of the high performance department. Are all the chinese against us? Is there a conspiracy? Are the chinese retarded? Like captainred? Insults again. You are saying the chinese are retarded, are you? They are reading pprune too. Some one has obviously spent time checking spelling mistakes. So why dont you go and spend some time to check all the TCOs and log books that have been falsified. You can use your talents of investigation there. The two pilots you mention are the ones who told their management about forged entries. What was done then? A manager's girlfriend and the forgerer himself were sent to the USA for CJ1 training. A cover up? How many reports concerning the King Air flights were sent to the CAAC? How many deviations? Has the school ever been shut down because of the King Air? NO Has the school ever been shut down because of the CJ1? YES, the day it arrived in shijiazhuang with none other than the log book master himself flying. There was a near miss with a 737. And in this case yes a report was sent to the CAAC. Spinning an aeroplane that is not certified for spins is an accusation based on hearsay. There has never been any reprimand, because it just did not happen. As to accusing two pilots of discussing low intelligence of newcomers and their inability to pass their caac written exams, this is so ridiculous as to be almost childish. How old are you? If those 2 pilots had been flying recklessly and off center constantly, why did not their managers stop them then? Imotep your reply does not make any sense: if the king air problems are neither a safety issue nor a regulatory issue why should they be tried for attempted murder? ZBOWor die you say they are log book conscious, yet every body knows they stopped flying at least 3 times to point out problems. |
Professionals not Idiots
Come one guys! Most of us are pilots and we are meant to be professionals. Lets not lower ourselves to name calling, personal insults and slagging each other off.
The two King Air instructor pilots that have been grounded are professional guys with professional attitudes. This situation is not what it would seem. There is no way these guys would be flying at 20,000ft plus if thought they would get a depressurization. Who in their right mind would do that? As far as these guys doing spins in non certified aircraft ..... That accusation is false and defaming. That never happend when I was there and before I left these guys were only flying in the DA42s. and then moved on to the King Air. I worked with these guys. From working with them I know that if there was a problem with an aircraft was deemed a safety risk they would not fly. They dont have a death wish. Read the post by BananaPilot. The situation is not that these pilots are grounded because they flew with maintenance issues. That is not the case at all. These two guys have squawked problems on the aircraft and have been accused of doing so because they want an excuse not to fly. In other words they are being accused of being lazy and unproductive. Cheers ... safe flying! |
Anyway the point is that they clearly have been grounded for having mentioned the problems.
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