Calling all Indair and AirIndia Pilots from UAE ATC
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Calling all Indair and AirIndia Pilots from UAE ATC
Hello all, I hope some indian pilots read this forum because I have two very pressing questions to ask.
1. Why do the majority of pilots never give their level passing and cleared level on first contact with the UAE FIR. Instead we get a "Hello" call. Thats nice but we are too busy for that. We just need your callsign, your level passing and your cleared level. Nothing else, not your squawk code, not your aircraft type, not your destination, we have all that. Just Callsign, level passing and cleared level PLEASE!!!
2. If we give you a clearance, and you read it back PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't always put a 'confirm' on the end. It is your job to readback the clearance, it is my job to hear the readback. If you read it back wrong I will correct you. If you read it back correctly, you will hear either silence or me moving onto my next customer. I do not have the time or the need to confirm you got your readback correct, silence from me it the confirmation of a correct readback.
Thank you, could you please pass this onto your colleagues, your check captains, anyone that can make a difference to the R/T problems we face from Indian pilots on a daily basis. Thanks.
1. Why do the majority of pilots never give their level passing and cleared level on first contact with the UAE FIR. Instead we get a "Hello" call. Thats nice but we are too busy for that. We just need your callsign, your level passing and your cleared level. Nothing else, not your squawk code, not your aircraft type, not your destination, we have all that. Just Callsign, level passing and cleared level PLEASE!!!
2. If we give you a clearance, and you read it back PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't always put a 'confirm' on the end. It is your job to readback the clearance, it is my job to hear the readback. If you read it back wrong I will correct you. If you read it back correctly, you will hear either silence or me moving onto my next customer. I do not have the time or the need to confirm you got your readback correct, silence from me it the confirmation of a correct readback.
Thank you, could you please pass this onto your colleagues, your check captains, anyone that can make a difference to the R/T problems we face from Indian pilots on a daily basis. Thanks.
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Time to revise the Radio telephony.... Back to class room or may be a letter to the airlines chief pilot to remind the guys down the line about the correct R/T procedures.......??
cheers
cheers
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Thanks Pushpak, for the response, I will try that avenue of attack. I want to make it clear that when it comes to everything else, the Indian pilots are fine, ie. they follow instructions promptly and correctly and don't moan or complain when they are delayed. It's just the R/T that lets them down. I am guessing that cleared flight levels and Mode C verification is not a required thing in Indian airspace, but in this part of the world we need these things. As far as the confirm at the end of each readback, I think it may be a lack of confidence on the part of the pilots maybe due to being unsure of their english comprehension (and maybe due to the Aussie/Sth African/Canadian/Norwegian/Swedish accents of the guys giving the clearances).
As I said, this is not meant to demean the Indian pilots, just wanting to know why it is this particular group that consistently are guilty of these shortcomings when it comes to R/T. Thanks.
As I said, this is not meant to demean the Indian pilots, just wanting to know why it is this particular group that consistently are guilty of these shortcomings when it comes to R/T. Thanks.
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[quote=AirNoServicesAustralia;2938834 . As far as the confirm at the end of each readback, I think it may be a lack of confidence on the part of the pilots maybe due to being unsure of their english comprehension (and maybe due to the Aussie/Sth African/Canadian/Norwegian/Swedish accents of the guys giving the clearances).
.[/quote]There is in India a "cultural thing" that imposes a requirement when on a Phone Call, even though in a monologue with no given air space for any reply of consequence to make the statement "Hello Hello" as if the poor recipient is off making chai and not listening to your "caste statement";so by asking you to "confirm" on the VHF he is making another one of those caste statements, in other words I am controlling this conversation.
Have you heard the "HF" equivalent at the end of the report......."GO AHEAD"............smacks of manual fine tuning HF during WW2 and not SSB..........but once again the intent is to impose who is controlling this conversation.
Some things will never change in some countries......but it does smack of immaturity.
.[/quote]There is in India a "cultural thing" that imposes a requirement when on a Phone Call, even though in a monologue with no given air space for any reply of consequence to make the statement "Hello Hello" as if the poor recipient is off making chai and not listening to your "caste statement";so by asking you to "confirm" on the VHF he is making another one of those caste statements, in other words I am controlling this conversation.
Have you heard the "HF" equivalent at the end of the report......."GO AHEAD"............smacks of manual fine tuning HF during WW2 and not SSB..........but once again the intent is to impose who is controlling this conversation.
Some things will never change in some countries......but it does smack of immaturity.
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I find the best response when they give a correct readback and then tack a confirm on the end is to ignore it and move onto the next task, because as far as I'm concerned the conversation is finished as soon as the readback is made correctly. Some come back again to confirm and I will politely advise them that since their readback was not corrected by me, that it then must have been correct and therefore does not require a further confirmation by me. That usually ends the conversation and allows me to move on to other pressing issues. Thanks for the explanation though.
There doesn't seem to be any Indian pilots on here though unfortunately though so I am guessing this forum isn't going to get the message across, so I will have to keep
until I can get through to some of them on the air. Ah well.
There doesn't seem to be any Indian pilots on here though unfortunately though so I am guessing this forum isn't going to get the message across, so I will have to keep
until I can get through to some of them on the air. Ah well.
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Tolerance
The definition of "BIGOT" is one who is an intolerant adherant of a creed or view.
When this thread appeared, I did think that it was a good one to among other things, iron out points to furthur ATC/Pilot links.
I did consider attempting to engage the issues at hand. But then, seeing the manner in which it unfolded, deceided that it was a waste of time casting the proverbial pearl before swine.
Grow up fella's, its a great big non-englander speaking/thinking/behaving world out there. Aviation as an ever evolving science, can do with more tolerance.
When this thread appeared, I did think that it was a good one to among other things, iron out points to furthur ATC/Pilot links.
I did consider attempting to engage the issues at hand. But then, seeing the manner in which it unfolded, deceided that it was a waste of time casting the proverbial pearl before swine.
Grow up fella's, its a great big non-englander speaking/thinking/behaving world out there. Aviation as an ever evolving science, can do with more tolerance.
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The definition of "BIGOT" is one who is an intolerant adherant of a creed or view.
When this thread appeared, I did think that it was a good one to among other things, iron out points to furthur ATC/Pilot links.
I did consider attempting to engage the issues at hand. But then, seeing the manner in which it unfolded, deceided that it was a waste of time casting the proverbial pearl before swine.
Grow up fella's, its a great big non-englander speaking/thinking/behaving world out there. Aviation as an ever evolving science, can do with more tolerance.
When this thread appeared, I did think that it was a good one to among other things, iron out points to furthur ATC/Pilot links.
I did consider attempting to engage the issues at hand. But then, seeing the manner in which it unfolded, deceided that it was a waste of time casting the proverbial pearl before swine.
Grow up fella's, its a great big non-englander speaking/thinking/behaving world out there. Aviation as an ever evolving science, can do with more tolerance.
RDR...........''Tolerance'" of poor RT is what the Poster is trying to change;but please go ahead with your input to the problem.
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rdr, my friend
You are obviously one of a very rare breed - a Singaporean Indian who does not despise 'sub-conti's who crossed the Bay of Bengal after the abolision of the chain gangs.
Isn't it hugely amusing that a 'cling' should rush to the defense of sub-conti's???
Isn't it hugely amusing that a 'cling' should rush to the defense of sub-conti's???
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Working on it!
Hi,
i am a fairly old hand at indair(crossing the pond for the last 12 years or so since we first started flying to the middle east)
i agree a lot of the RT(especially the first departure call) is not quite as "Short and Sweet" as it should be.
i would just like to point out that a lot of new F/O s(about 200plus) have been coming on line for the last couple of years.
i know from first hand experience, that despite being told specifically to give the alt passing on first call it takes some of them a while to get it right.
Probably as a result of "post traumatic stress syndrome", after navigating DXBs poorly marked taxi tracks!
But sometimes even us old hands have a problem getting to hear properly what is being said on the control frequency,because of sudden sharp static on 121.5(or even a full blown intermittent elt transmission)
i have on occassion mentioned this to the controller.
On an average it takes about 2 months for the majority of the pilots from all of indairs bases to rotate thru a DXB trip.(with about 5 to 10 new released F/Os in that duration)
So if you keep at it long enough,(and i would suggest a more direct remark,as sarcasm is lost on a lot of the newbies and some of the old ones too!)
there might be some light at the end of the tunnel!
Thank You for the professional job you folks do.
i am a fairly old hand at indair(crossing the pond for the last 12 years or so since we first started flying to the middle east)
i agree a lot of the RT(especially the first departure call) is not quite as "Short and Sweet" as it should be.
i would just like to point out that a lot of new F/O s(about 200plus) have been coming on line for the last couple of years.
i know from first hand experience, that despite being told specifically to give the alt passing on first call it takes some of them a while to get it right.
Probably as a result of "post traumatic stress syndrome", after navigating DXBs poorly marked taxi tracks!
But sometimes even us old hands have a problem getting to hear properly what is being said on the control frequency,because of sudden sharp static on 121.5(or even a full blown intermittent elt transmission)
i have on occassion mentioned this to the controller.
On an average it takes about 2 months for the majority of the pilots from all of indairs bases to rotate thru a DXB trip.(with about 5 to 10 new released F/Os in that duration)
So if you keep at it long enough,(and i would suggest a more direct remark,as sarcasm is lost on a lot of the newbies and some of the old ones too!)
there might be some light at the end of the tunnel!
Thank You for the professional job you folks do.
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Sorry rdr if you think I am being a bigot, by targetting a particular nationality of pilot for criticism, but in this case "if the shoe fits, wear it". I also said Indian pilots are not bad pilots, it's just their R/T that needs some serious work in a couple of specific areas. Generally they listen out well and respond quickly, it's just how they respond that is often the problem. So if you want to drag this thread down into a racism argument, feel free but I won't be participating, because I am hoping this thread may help in some small way in changing the practices of some pilots and that may have a trickle down affect to the rest.
Leftseatview, I apologise firstly for the constant interference from 121.5 in the UAE area. We constantly send off reports to the authorities about the problem, and unfortunately the problem doesn't seem to be taken anywhere near seriously enough. Just like this issue, you hope that if you keep trying your best to change things, someday the relevant people may see the light, so we will keep sending off ELT reports and keep our fingers crossed.
I understand that airlines in India are going through a huge burst of expansion with a lot of new First Officers coming on line, BUT, Emirates airlines is one of the fastest growing airlines in the world, and the First Officers coming out of there, while certainly not perfect, at least have the correct R/T discipline and knowledge. So based on that I would look to where these Indair and Air India guys are being trained, and who is training them, because that seems to be a problem.
I would ask that you do all you can do, from telling a colleague sitting beside you, how it should be done, to passing the message on to check captains and the training people in your airline.
In the meantime I will correct all the pilots who are in error with their R/T, when I have time, and you never know what might happen. Cheers
Leftseatview, I apologise firstly for the constant interference from 121.5 in the UAE area. We constantly send off reports to the authorities about the problem, and unfortunately the problem doesn't seem to be taken anywhere near seriously enough. Just like this issue, you hope that if you keep trying your best to change things, someday the relevant people may see the light, so we will keep sending off ELT reports and keep our fingers crossed.
I understand that airlines in India are going through a huge burst of expansion with a lot of new First Officers coming on line, BUT, Emirates airlines is one of the fastest growing airlines in the world, and the First Officers coming out of there, while certainly not perfect, at least have the correct R/T discipline and knowledge. So based on that I would look to where these Indair and Air India guys are being trained, and who is training them, because that seems to be a problem.
I would ask that you do all you can do, from telling a colleague sitting beside you, how it should be done, to passing the message on to check captains and the training people in your airline.
In the meantime I will correct all the pilots who are in error with their R/T, when I have time, and you never know what might happen. Cheers
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There is in India a "cultural thing" that imposes a requirement when on a Phone Call, even though in a monologue with no given air space for any reply of consequence to make the statement "Hello Hello" as if the poor recipient is off making chai and not listening to your "caste statement";so by asking you to "confirm" on the VHF he is making another one of those caste statements, in other words I am controlling this conversation.
Have you heard the "HF" equivalent at the end of the report......."GO AHEAD"............smacks of manual fine tuning HF during WW2 and not SSB..........but once again the intent is to impose who is controlling this conversation.
Some things will never change in some countries......but it does smack of immaturity.
Have you heard the "HF" equivalent at the end of the report......."GO AHEAD"............smacks of manual fine tuning HF during WW2 and not SSB..........but once again the intent is to impose who is controlling this conversation.
Some things will never change in some countries......but it does smack of immaturity.
Caste has nothing to do with it. People in India don't wear their caste on their sleeves!! It is not like someone can look at you and determine which caste/relegion you are from!! Some people just read up on caste system and try to attribute every action of Indians to caste!!
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ANSA point noted. it has to start from the top so it is the responsibility of the training captains then the line captains and so on. expansion etc are just excuses we all have one and you know the rest.....dont complain about the world is non english etc boy when you go to france you are the one begging for them to speak in proper english. so who is the biggot.like i said point noted will help in correcting by starting with self first.
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Willfly, I didn't say the Indian pilots have a lack of English. While all pilots are required to have satisfactory Aviation English to fly internationally (supposedly?!?), when it comes to the Indian pilots their English is very good. I was putting forward a possible reason for the "confirm" at the end of all readbacks, as being that they may be low on confidence in their own English comprehension and so want to confirm their correct readbacks. I think it does come down to the training and checking at these airlines. I'll say again I am not a bigot, and never judge a pilot on their English or lack of it. Some of the best pilots, as far as correct R/T, following instructions and procedures, and general airmanship, are guys with borderline English but with good training. Again I don't want this to be a racial, "my english is better than yours" argument, and the only reason I pinpointed the nationality that I did, was because they constantly are guilty of the things I pointed out.
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Will pass the word
ANSA perhaps someday Indair will get a selection/training system like that at Emirates.
Meanwhile,i'll try and pass on the word(might be able to convince a few to have a quick look at this thread,while they are perusing other topics of interest on the net!)
As far as RT is concerned,i subscribe to the philosophy that "less is more" in todays SSR monitored high traffic density environment.
I feel the basic training content for CPL/ATPL today has a misplaced emphasis
on areas which are not so relevent in todays operating environment,at the cost of others which are.
A clear understanding of the basic concepts of Air Traffic Control using SSR(from the controllers point of view) is much more relevent than understanding the detailed physics behind some of the magic gizmos on board(excpt maybe the inflight entertinment system!)
A few ATC Centre visits and interactions could certainly help,but as of now it is not part of the required training.
So will try and take it up with the bosses in the training setup.
Meanwhile,i'll try and pass on the word(might be able to convince a few to have a quick look at this thread,while they are perusing other topics of interest on the net!)
As far as RT is concerned,i subscribe to the philosophy that "less is more" in todays SSR monitored high traffic density environment.
I feel the basic training content for CPL/ATPL today has a misplaced emphasis
on areas which are not so relevent in todays operating environment,at the cost of others which are.
A clear understanding of the basic concepts of Air Traffic Control using SSR(from the controllers point of view) is much more relevent than understanding the detailed physics behind some of the magic gizmos on board(excpt maybe the inflight entertinment system!)
A few ATC Centre visits and interactions could certainly help,but as of now it is not part of the required training.
So will try and take it up with the bosses in the training setup.
Last edited by leftseatview; 3rd Nov 2006 at 08:30. Reason: missed a word
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Thanks for your help Leftseatview, it's appreciated. Just to let you know that you and any of your colleagues are more than welcome to visit the centre anytime, and as we are in the suburbs rather than at the airport, the security dramas are a lot less. But I guess you fly mainly into Dubai and the area centre is actually located in Abu Dhabi, so may not work for you, but as I said the offer is always there, and would be beneficial for both ends of the radio to get together. Cheers and thanks again for your help
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Leaftseat and ANSA now that's a very positive step and a good one too..its about learning, how other departments work to make the flights safe. Right from dispatch to the loaders, engineers, cabincrew, atc.....and till we shut down the other end contribute to a safe flight.... unfortunaletly some of us are not aware of this.......I have personally visited ATC centres long time ago in Delhi, Singapore and Lax on my layovers and it was a learning experience and like wise always invited personnel from the industry to the flight deck to see our working environement, unfortunately that has all changed post sept11. Never the less throught forum like this we can educate our selfs.
Happy Flying
Happy Flying
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Hi,
My first post...Im sorry Im not a real world pilot as yet and I do not intend to argue with all of you who have valid experience...but just wanted to tell you that Iam an avid MS Flt simmer and use VATSIM which is the online ATC for us ...and I think that a lot of PC pilots seem to have far better ATC discipline than those all of you seem to have a problem with. BTW this si the case with Indians who fly from KJFK to EGLL and even OMDB to VABB.
Just putting my points across and I sincerely feel that if some of these new FOs who dont have a proper grasp of ATC discipline need to brush up, Flt Simming is the way to go.
My first post...Im sorry Im not a real world pilot as yet and I do not intend to argue with all of you who have valid experience...but just wanted to tell you that Iam an avid MS Flt simmer and use VATSIM which is the online ATC for us ...and I think that a lot of PC pilots seem to have far better ATC discipline than those all of you seem to have a problem with. BTW this si the case with Indians who fly from KJFK to EGLL and even OMDB to VABB.
Just putting my points across and I sincerely feel that if some of these new FOs who dont have a proper grasp of ATC discipline need to brush up, Flt Simming is the way to go.
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Culture or clutter?
It would seem that in order to have a system of RT and ATC work well, both the pilots and ATC guys need the tools that help. And after yesterdays examples overheard in Indian Airspace (Calcutta) no one has them, at least in that part of the world. Shameful display of professionalism from both parties! Fighting and shouting at each other on the air is preschool behaviour at it's best.(Although it might have been comical if it didn't happen so often!) Too much stress put on both the ATC boys and young local pilots by an over competitive atmosphere promulgated by need to show status. In addition the airspace allowances between the Indian military and the ever growing civilian requirements is putting too much stress on the ATC system. What everyone needs to realise is that the rule is: DO NOT take it out on each other...I have had too many (one!) ATC guys shout (yes! and for quite a while too!) at me on final into BOM and heard some other beauties as well and it worries me that a disaster is not far off. Just keep it cool guys and learn from others, we are all pro's here and can help one another. Work within whatever system you have, if you can. Thanks,
LC
LC
Last edited by Left Coaster; 10th Nov 2006 at 03:12. Reason: speling...:)
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have been passing the word, and also listening in more closely to company traffic on the UAE/DXB freqs.
thought this post would put the topic back on the front page,so that its easier to locate by fellow Indair and AirIndia folks
thought this post would put the topic back on the front page,so that its easier to locate by fellow Indair and AirIndia folks