PAL Pilot Exodus
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No offense, but "what I mean" is that it looks good on paper. If i were an employer, i would prefer a pilot trained directly by Airbus, holding an Airbus training certificate; compared to one trained "in house" from an airline that I've never heard of.
I fly for Cebupac, but hey, I gotta be realistic...how many people outside Flipland have actually heard of "Cebu Pacific". But if I hold an Airbus training certificate...maybe better chances for employment, just my 2 cents.
I fly for Cebupac, but hey, I gotta be realistic...how many people outside Flipland have actually heard of "Cebu Pacific". But if I hold an Airbus training certificate...maybe better chances for employment, just my 2 cents.
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Originally Posted by tsuper
I heard rumors that pilots promised training dates with SIA Cargo have been told their training will not continue
. The alleged reason was that the Philippine Government and/or Philippine Airlines called SIA and requested that PAL pilots not be hired . I still have to confirm this info. Will post when I get to talk to guys who were supposed to leave for SIA Cargo.
. The alleged reason was that the Philippine Government and/or Philippine Airlines called SIA and requested that PAL pilots not be hired . I still have to confirm this info. Will post when I get to talk to guys who were supposed to leave for SIA Cargo.If somebody here have a direct contact to any poltician or the Zambo Rep himself. Please point this out to them/him.
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I'm just new to this forum... I just want to say something about PAF pilots leaving their organization... 1. I guess its somthing to do with the organization they are in... 2. There are alot of pilots with no airplanes to fly... How can thay defend our country? we dont even have an interceptor... fighter jet... what are they gonna defend us with? S211? OV10? Do you still remember the story about our 2 OV10 planes that were patrolling those islands... that were just buzzed by a fighter jet... Well, I think these are just some of the things that these boys have in mind... Thats why they left the Air Force... 
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It's depressing the know that RP is really loosing its pilots. But still they (private owners or PAF officials) are not doing anything to address the situation. What they are doing now is to restrict the liberty of pilots. Instead of giving what they want so that the pilots wont leave. This only makes things worse. Private or government, its the same thing. The management or officers only think of themselves and not their core assets.
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Losing pilots
This all due to the economic downturn that our country is facing and has been for quite sometime now. It's a terrible state of affairs, but the airlines seems to show no inclination to alleviate the problem without imposing draconian measures on it's most precious assets.... it's people.
And to add to it's woes, pilot solidarity is fragmented at best. It's true that market forces comes into play, but it's equally true that we're our own worst enemies when it comes to tough negotiations with our employers. The sad fact is we stick our heads in the sand and if the occasional lone voice is heard during a strike, on top of the fact that the airline management will actively seek ways to bring them down and everyone with them, some will crumble in the process and everyone suffers the consequences of failure. Having to put up with substantially less generous conditions.
For the airforce unfortunately, not unless our government can come to terms to justify the expense of buying fighter jets, I'm afraid all the airforce pilots will be flying will be cargo planes and helos. Gone are the days of the Blue Diamonds and that is so sad as I grew up believing that I can fly with them when I grew up. I didn't even make the final decision to join the PAF as during the time I was about to join, due to the rising price of AVTUR and the state of the economy, they were pulled off line.
Losing pilots is a double-bladed sword. Airline profits will decline on one side but skills shortage means that those with skills will command better returns in terms of pay and conditions. Though it might take time. The balance of supply and demand will tip in the favour of Fil pilot in the near future, if not already.
Flight operation management will deny it of course saying it is an envitable change but they are going to great lengths to tighten their employees chains to tie them down to poverty.
Suffice to say, they will feel how the pilots have been feeling when their needs were not heeded.
DeltaSix
And to add to it's woes, pilot solidarity is fragmented at best. It's true that market forces comes into play, but it's equally true that we're our own worst enemies when it comes to tough negotiations with our employers. The sad fact is we stick our heads in the sand and if the occasional lone voice is heard during a strike, on top of the fact that the airline management will actively seek ways to bring them down and everyone with them, some will crumble in the process and everyone suffers the consequences of failure. Having to put up with substantially less generous conditions.
For the airforce unfortunately, not unless our government can come to terms to justify the expense of buying fighter jets, I'm afraid all the airforce pilots will be flying will be cargo planes and helos. Gone are the days of the Blue Diamonds and that is so sad as I grew up believing that I can fly with them when I grew up. I didn't even make the final decision to join the PAF as during the time I was about to join, due to the rising price of AVTUR and the state of the economy, they were pulled off line.
Losing pilots is a double-bladed sword. Airline profits will decline on one side but skills shortage means that those with skills will command better returns in terms of pay and conditions. Though it might take time. The balance of supply and demand will tip in the favour of Fil pilot in the near future, if not already.
Flight operation management will deny it of course saying it is an envitable change but they are going to great lengths to tighten their employees chains to tie them down to poverty.
Suffice to say, they will feel how the pilots have been feeling when their needs were not heeded.
DeltaSix
Last edited by DeltaSix; 11th Mar 2006 at 03:21.
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hmmmmmm....
What makes pilots special?
First posted 01:43am (Mla time) Mar 11, 2006
By Solita Collas-Monsod
Inquirer
Published on Page A10 of the March 11, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer
THE Migrant Workers and Overseas Filipinos Act (Republic Act 8042) empowers the government to suspend or ban the deployment of migrant workers in pursuit of the national interest or when public welfare so requires it. It is this provision that is now being used to justify the imposition of a three- to five-year ban on the overseas employment of -- guess who? -- airline pilots.
Oh, sure, the chair of the House committee on labor and employment, Rep. Roseller Barinaga, included aircraft personnel, information technology (IT) engineers and electronic technicians as part of the brain drain that he says is debilitating the country. He also mentioned in passing the shortage of doctors, teachers and health industry workers (which presumably includes nurses, whom he does not specifically mention). But the figures he cited have to do mostly with pilots.
Which immediately raises warning flags. After all, one would have thought that the exodus of doctors and nurses and teachers would have the most far-reaching and long-run negative effects on the country's human development -- and yet no one is suggesting a ban on their leaving. So what makes pilots so special?
The answer can be gleaned from various news reports. Reading them, it becomes obvious that banning pilots from working for foreign airlines will benefit business tycoon Lucio Tan and his two airlines -- mainly Philippine Airlines (PAL), which employs more than half of all commercial pilots. His minions relate it to national interest in the following manner: Because of the pilot exodus (about 60 a year), the number of PAL flights have to be reduced, depriving the Filipino people of much needed airline service, i.e., what is bad for Tan and PAL is bad for the country. A media campaign seems to be in progress to put that message across.
The reasoning is fallacious, of course. It assumes that if PAL is crippled or dies, no one else will take its place, which is nonsense. In the international arena, any number of airlines are ready, willing and able to fill the gap, as was shown when PAL gave up its European flights, with the international community not even noticing it. And there is no reason to think that given a domestic market of 12 million non-poor families, there will be no new airlines forthcoming, or that existing competing airlines (Cebu Pacific Air, for one, whose expansion PAL has repeatedly tried to block) will not be ready to take up the slack.
But isn't pilot scarcity the problem? Where will these other airlines get their pilots? Simple: They entice them back from abroad, or make it less attractive for those who are here to leave, while at the same time preparing for the long term by making sure that the pipeline of pilots-in-training is widened rather than narrowed.
On the pipeline issue, my information is that before Tan took over PAL, it ran a pilot training school that accepted students who had passed entrance examinations and proceeded to train them, and only when they joined PAL were the training costs deducted from their salaries over a period of time. Tan apparently changed that; students must now pay the entire tuition cost (around P1.9 million at present) within a year of entering the school. No wonder the pilot pipeline narrowed, but that can be reversed.
The pilot exodus can also be reversed if we understand why the pilots leave or want to leave in the first place. That is because, they claim, Tan treats them like dirt. Their story: He used his considerable influence during the Estrada administration to have their strike declared illegal, terminated them all and then rehired them under onerous conditions-entry level salaries, loss of seniority (with retirement and pension implications), no union allowed.
To add insult to injury, those salaries reportedly were not increased from then until about one and a half years ago (probably in an attempt to stem the pilot exodus), when in the guise of making them (only senior pilots) part of management, they were given "premium" pay of 15 percent, but with a caveat: "Please note that premium pay is not included in the computation of retirement pay, 13th and 14th-month pay, and leaves commutation."
Senior PAL pilots say they get between $2,500 and $3,500 monthly (not $4,000 to $6,000 as claimed by PAL). The foreign airlines offer them $9,000 to $12,000. But some pilots also say that had PAL offered them even just one-half the industry pay average, they would not leave, to avoid the painful separation from their families.
But instead of using carrots to keep their pilots, PAL uses sticks -- arbitrarily increasing the amounts the pilots must pay to reimburse the cost of their specialized training, requiring them to give six months' notice before leaving, refusing to give them back the 25 percent of their pay that was set aside as forced savings, refusing to give references, using its muscle to harass the foreign recruiters (accusing them of illegal recruitment and sic-ing the National Bureau of Investigation on them) as well.
Failing to stem the hemorrhage despite all these measures, Lucio Tan's PAL, together with other domestic airlines (including Cebu Pacific, alas) is now campaigning to ban the foreign deployment of pilots. If they succeed, not only will the pilots be at their mercy, but the danger of having a domestic airline cartel increases exponentially. National interest? My sainted foot.
©2006 www.inq7.net all rights reserved
First posted 01:43am (Mla time) Mar 11, 2006
By Solita Collas-Monsod
Inquirer
Published on Page A10 of the March 11, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer
THE Migrant Workers and Overseas Filipinos Act (Republic Act 8042) empowers the government to suspend or ban the deployment of migrant workers in pursuit of the national interest or when public welfare so requires it. It is this provision that is now being used to justify the imposition of a three- to five-year ban on the overseas employment of -- guess who? -- airline pilots.
Oh, sure, the chair of the House committee on labor and employment, Rep. Roseller Barinaga, included aircraft personnel, information technology (IT) engineers and electronic technicians as part of the brain drain that he says is debilitating the country. He also mentioned in passing the shortage of doctors, teachers and health industry workers (which presumably includes nurses, whom he does not specifically mention). But the figures he cited have to do mostly with pilots.
Which immediately raises warning flags. After all, one would have thought that the exodus of doctors and nurses and teachers would have the most far-reaching and long-run negative effects on the country's human development -- and yet no one is suggesting a ban on their leaving. So what makes pilots so special?
The answer can be gleaned from various news reports. Reading them, it becomes obvious that banning pilots from working for foreign airlines will benefit business tycoon Lucio Tan and his two airlines -- mainly Philippine Airlines (PAL), which employs more than half of all commercial pilots. His minions relate it to national interest in the following manner: Because of the pilot exodus (about 60 a year), the number of PAL flights have to be reduced, depriving the Filipino people of much needed airline service, i.e., what is bad for Tan and PAL is bad for the country. A media campaign seems to be in progress to put that message across.
The reasoning is fallacious, of course. It assumes that if PAL is crippled or dies, no one else will take its place, which is nonsense. In the international arena, any number of airlines are ready, willing and able to fill the gap, as was shown when PAL gave up its European flights, with the international community not even noticing it. And there is no reason to think that given a domestic market of 12 million non-poor families, there will be no new airlines forthcoming, or that existing competing airlines (Cebu Pacific Air, for one, whose expansion PAL has repeatedly tried to block) will not be ready to take up the slack.
But isn't pilot scarcity the problem? Where will these other airlines get their pilots? Simple: They entice them back from abroad, or make it less attractive for those who are here to leave, while at the same time preparing for the long term by making sure that the pipeline of pilots-in-training is widened rather than narrowed.
On the pipeline issue, my information is that before Tan took over PAL, it ran a pilot training school that accepted students who had passed entrance examinations and proceeded to train them, and only when they joined PAL were the training costs deducted from their salaries over a period of time. Tan apparently changed that; students must now pay the entire tuition cost (around P1.9 million at present) within a year of entering the school. No wonder the pilot pipeline narrowed, but that can be reversed.
The pilot exodus can also be reversed if we understand why the pilots leave or want to leave in the first place. That is because, they claim, Tan treats them like dirt. Their story: He used his considerable influence during the Estrada administration to have their strike declared illegal, terminated them all and then rehired them under onerous conditions-entry level salaries, loss of seniority (with retirement and pension implications), no union allowed.
To add insult to injury, those salaries reportedly were not increased from then until about one and a half years ago (probably in an attempt to stem the pilot exodus), when in the guise of making them (only senior pilots) part of management, they were given "premium" pay of 15 percent, but with a caveat: "Please note that premium pay is not included in the computation of retirement pay, 13th and 14th-month pay, and leaves commutation."
Senior PAL pilots say they get between $2,500 and $3,500 monthly (not $4,000 to $6,000 as claimed by PAL). The foreign airlines offer them $9,000 to $12,000. But some pilots also say that had PAL offered them even just one-half the industry pay average, they would not leave, to avoid the painful separation from their families.
But instead of using carrots to keep their pilots, PAL uses sticks -- arbitrarily increasing the amounts the pilots must pay to reimburse the cost of their specialized training, requiring them to give six months' notice before leaving, refusing to give them back the 25 percent of their pay that was set aside as forced savings, refusing to give references, using its muscle to harass the foreign recruiters (accusing them of illegal recruitment and sic-ing the National Bureau of Investigation on them) as well.
Failing to stem the hemorrhage despite all these measures, Lucio Tan's PAL, together with other domestic airlines (including Cebu Pacific, alas) is now campaigning to ban the foreign deployment of pilots. If they succeed, not only will the pilots be at their mercy, but the danger of having a domestic airline cartel increases exponentially. National interest? My sainted foot.
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So, a columnist of national prominence has taken up the cudgels for the pilots (I wonder on whose behest?). Anyway, this should augur well for those left behind and want out. PPrune will only be good for venting pent-up anger, or rage if you will, which isn't bad. However, "rocking the boat" - I'll come up with a novel phrase next time - will entail something a lot more concrete than anonymous posts by faceless individuals.
The article was as good a start as any.
The article was as good a start as any.
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Originally Posted by bisaya
the House committee on labor and employment, Rep. Roseller Barinaga, included aircraft personnel, information technology (IT) engineers and electronic technicians as part of the brain drain that he says is debilitating the country. He also mentioned in passing the shortage of doctors, teachers and health industry workers (which presumably includes nurses, whom he does not specifically mention). But the figures he cited have to do mostly with pilots.
I know 6 doctors here in Sydney who are working as nurses, factory workers and insurance agents because they say that there are no jobs in the hospitals which I believe because another 12 nurses are here working as either nurses or office workers citing the same reasons. And I am sure a lot of them are leaving Philippines not only because of a better life but because of under-employment. The last time I was there, I met a "balut" vendor who has a degree in medicine. Apparently couldn't get a job. Are they ( the govt )just telling lies to justify their actions ???
"students must now pay the entire tuition cost (around P1.9 million at present) within a year of entering the school. "
with the state of the economy, who in their right minds would pay for this not unless you have a strong financial supporter ??.... not even most Filipinos overseas would be game enough to pay for their type rating.
I'd be very interested to see how they can entice pilots overseas to comeback especially the ones who has been with PAL disillusioned and bitter.
People like me were thinking about coming back home to fly for them but with all this Bull**** about 6 months notice, license renewal every 6 months, crappy pay and 5 year bans, who in their right minds would even consider ?
People are dying to get out.
For me to even consider PAL over QANTAS would be unthinkable.
D6
Last edited by DeltaSix; 11th Mar 2006 at 09:51.
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Guys, PPRUNE is a great way for us to voice our otherwise unheard opinions. We have to get the word out. Why should we be paid much less than industry standard when foreign companies are offering much more. We're worth more than we realize... remember LT has a lot of clout because he has the money. Then again we too have a lot of clout (at least collectively). Planes don't fly by themselves!! (Well they do acutually.. but don't tell anyone!!) There has to be unity when it comes to dealing with management. Voicing our opinions is good, but unless someone stands up and is heard.. it's useless. But who? Who in this environment of terrorized employees is going to give up what they've worked so hard for, for so many years? Who is going to risk losing their retirement? Who is going to give up their command? Who is going to sacrifice their livelihood and family? JDC? Our dead alpap? Unions work because of the mere fact that people are united. United against opportunists like LT that flaunt his wealth on the Forbes billionaire's list. http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.ph...lished_site=16
We need to be united. Not to sabotage PAL or CP, but to make it fairer and safer. Tell me who wants to get into a plane when they know that one of the pilots is straight out of flying school with 200 hours? Leaving pilots means that invaluable experience goes to other companies that reap the benefits. Why should SingCargo, Cathay, Korean Air get pilots that the Philippines has produced and paid for? I can see management's point... but they've got it all wrong. I know most of you share this view. I read it on this forum, read it in the paper, and hear it on the flightdeck. So then... What are we going to do about it???
We need to be united. Not to sabotage PAL or CP, but to make it fairer and safer. Tell me who wants to get into a plane when they know that one of the pilots is straight out of flying school with 200 hours? Leaving pilots means that invaluable experience goes to other companies that reap the benefits. Why should SingCargo, Cathay, Korean Air get pilots that the Philippines has produced and paid for? I can see management's point... but they've got it all wrong. I know most of you share this view. I read it on this forum, read it in the paper, and hear it on the flightdeck. So then... What are we going to do about it???
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For starters, we should request our good moderator to make this thread into a "sticky". Also have Pinoy Pilot rename it to "Pinoy Pilot Exodus".
Excellent post PLANESTUPID.
Excellent post PLANESTUPID.
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Originally Posted by planestupid
So then... What are we going to do about it???
Do it sooner rather than later.
D6
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Impossible Dream
Originally Posted by DeltaSix
Hire lawyers to oppose the bill and to work out an acceptable pay and conditions or take it to a human rights court --- if possible
Do it sooner rather than later.
D6
Do it sooner rather than later.
D6
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Brown Out
Meron pang paraan. Remember 1998 when we flew the flights as published in the flight plan.
1. No requests for direct routing
2. No intersection take off
3. fly the full published instrument approach. Do not request visual approaches
4. Write aircraft discrepancies into logbook as they occur. Do not put them off until after the last sector has been flown.
Maybe they will realize how much money we save this company (PAL lamang po!!) by using our skills. Or maybe they will see how much time and fuel will be wasted when pilots refuse to use their skills, fly dumb and simply follow what is written in the flight plan. Just and idea but please tell me what you think. Could we get this up and running
1. No requests for direct routing
2. No intersection take off
3. fly the full published instrument approach. Do not request visual approaches
4. Write aircraft discrepancies into logbook as they occur. Do not put them off until after the last sector has been flown.
Maybe they will realize how much money we save this company (PAL lamang po!!) by using our skills. Or maybe they will see how much time and fuel will be wasted when pilots refuse to use their skills, fly dumb and simply follow what is written in the flight plan. Just and idea but please tell me what you think. Could we get this up and running
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Originally Posted by tsuper
Win in court in the Philippines against Lucio Tan???? Quite impossible. Things work differently here in the Philippines and you would be surprised how loud money can talk. We just have to run like hell away from this company before all these "honorable" congressmen close all the exits for pilots. We have been there, done that in 1998.
DeltaSix
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Originally Posted by Cessna1052
Just try reflecting on this, if your Companies decided to stop paying you on time, or to suddenly give you a 50% pay cut on your salaries. Is there anything you can do? Can you just resign and go somewhere else profitable? Keeping in Mind that Dept of Labor approved the 6 months notice before leaving the company irregardless whether you served the contract or not.
What if the company doesn't want to support your license renewal just because you've been causing profit loses by asking too much extra fuel, or not using your wit on planning your flights and any other things management views as bonerous?
What if the company doesn't want to support your license renewal just because you've been causing profit loses by asking too much extra fuel, or not using your wit on planning your flights and any other things management views as bonerous?
Is there anything we can do to help them ?
D6
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Manila Bulletin...
Action to stem exodus of pilots sought
Manila Bulletin Online
Tue Mar 14, 2006
An alliance of organizations composed of overseas Filipinos and their families warned the local aviation industry yesterday that the current exodus of pilots and airline workers will worsen unless a comprehensive response is formulated.
"On the one hand, the aviation industry is alarmed over the exodus of its highly skilled workers but on the other, the Arroyo administration is vigorously "marketing" these same workers overseas. In this context, the industry’s proposed moratorium of a band-aid solution will do little to stem the hemorrhage caused by Malacañang’s adherence to World Trade Organization policies," Connie Bragas Regalado, Migrante International chairwomn, said.
Recently, the local aviation industry submitted a proposal to the Philippine Overseas Employment Administration (POEA) for a five-year moratorium on the overseas recruitment of pilots, aircraft engineers, and aviation mechanics.
POEA statistics showed that 1,159 highly trained aircraft mechanics had left the country since 2003.
About 120 pilots had left since 2000. Fifteen Philippine Airlines pilots had already left this year.
"The proposal to the POEA will surely fall on deaf ears as the POEA also has an avowed target of marketing and exporting one million workers annually, as per an Arroyo directive," she said.
Regalado added that Arroyo’s subservience to neoliberal globalization interests, through agreements like the World Trade Organization’s General Agreement on Trades and Services (Mode IV), also aggravates the exodus of workers. The GATS Mode IV provision allows the movement of people from one country to another to provide services to the detriment of Third World countries.
_________________
Manila Bulletin Online
Tue Mar 14, 2006
An alliance of organizations composed of overseas Filipinos and their families warned the local aviation industry yesterday that the current exodus of pilots and airline workers will worsen unless a comprehensive response is formulated.
"On the one hand, the aviation industry is alarmed over the exodus of its highly skilled workers but on the other, the Arroyo administration is vigorously "marketing" these same workers overseas. In this context, the industry’s proposed moratorium of a band-aid solution will do little to stem the hemorrhage caused by Malacañang’s adherence to World Trade Organization policies," Connie Bragas Regalado, Migrante International chairwomn, said.
Recently, the local aviation industry submitted a proposal to the Philippine Overseas Employment Administration (POEA) for a five-year moratorium on the overseas recruitment of pilots, aircraft engineers, and aviation mechanics.
POEA statistics showed that 1,159 highly trained aircraft mechanics had left the country since 2003.
About 120 pilots had left since 2000. Fifteen Philippine Airlines pilots had already left this year.
"The proposal to the POEA will surely fall on deaf ears as the POEA also has an avowed target of marketing and exporting one million workers annually, as per an Arroyo directive," she said.
Regalado added that Arroyo’s subservience to neoliberal globalization interests, through agreements like the World Trade Organization’s General Agreement on Trades and Services (Mode IV), also aggravates the exodus of workers. The GATS Mode IV provision allows the movement of people from one country to another to provide services to the detriment of Third World countries.
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stealth
siguro po mas maganda kung ang mga suggestions o strajedies
para ilabas kami sa local airlines or to correct the company moves to enslave us rather than enrich us ay i daan na lang sa mga PM kung tiwala kayo sa ka-PM ninyo.pangit kasi mabisto ng mga bossing.para sa mga may conek jan = post naman kayo kung pano makapasok sa mga kumpanya nyo.para sa mga gustong mag abroad = tanong kayo ng concerns,tips,reviewers at kapag patok, share ninyo samin.basta Stealth
.o,ayan na!inis na si Big Brother.
game na?
para ilabas kami sa local airlines or to correct the company moves to enslave us rather than enrich us ay i daan na lang sa mga PM kung tiwala kayo sa ka-PM ninyo.pangit kasi mabisto ng mga bossing.para sa mga may conek jan = post naman kayo kung pano makapasok sa mga kumpanya nyo.para sa mga gustong mag abroad = tanong kayo ng concerns,tips,reviewers at kapag patok, share ninyo samin.basta Stealth .o,ayan na!inis na si Big Brother. game na?
Originally Posted by DeltaSix
This is a scary thought. I already feel sorry for the guys back there for having to put up with the bans, contract and 6 months notices. If they do this then this would make them completely under the mercy of their employers. Cessna1052, no one would be able to get out when they need to.
Is there anything we can do to help them ?
D6
Is there anything we can do to help them ?
D6