R/T status in KL FIR

[veloo maniam]

Teh-Tarik session

Hi guys...the teh-tarik session was a real good eye-opener to all of us at ATC. I must congratulate the six pilots and five ATCers who attended the session. Yes..no doubt about it, we all learnt something new. All the whys were answered. Thanks too for MAPA reps. I think a lot more can be achieved thru this type of informal gatherings. We all shud be thankful to PPRUNE for a forum like this whereby pilots n ATCers can share their views for the betterment of the aviation environment in the KUL FIR.

[veloo maniam]

Fuel conservation

Hi flyers..just back from a meeting between IATA/MAS at FMB KLIA. ATC was invited. Me n my friend attended.As some of u might b aware IATA is campaining for "SAVE 1 MINUTE" Initiative. I told IATA that it is a norm these days to give track shortenings which range anywhere between 1-3 mins. U wud observed that a no. of flts are given track shortenings. What ATC wud like to know is whether this fuel saving initiatives are helping u guys at all.
For eg:
MH2 FPL on P628 KUL-LHR. Normal FPL distance from SUKAT-VPL-GIVAL will be 293.6NM. But we are giving SUKAT-GIVAL which works out to 273.6NM, a savings of 20NM.
For SIN departures there is an additional savings of 34.2NM bcos we track them direct abm ARAMA-SUKAT-GIVAL. Therefore a departure from SIN saves a total of 54.2 track miles.
For a flight from SIN-PUT there is a total of 39.2NM savings by giving a direct track from Abm Arama dct VPL.
By providing a direct track from AGOSA to Tamos 22.1NM is knocked out.All this track shortenings are provided based on tfc conditions without comprimising Air Safety.
ATC doesn't know the amount of fuel saved in Kilos. and the amount saved in USD. Whatever it is,this 'saved' amount is actually adding to your weight at the point of arrival. I don't think this will be a problem for short haul flts. However the long haul flts are carrying on with this 'saved' fuel for a longer period.At least this was what was highlighted in the meeting.Somebody pls advise whether track shortenings really help u guys. A minute saved is worth about US100 (IATA statistics) cheers

[Virtual Reality]

Hi Veloo,

Just a matter of interest, when are you guys going to have PDC clearance via ACARS, D-ATIS and CPDLC/ADS ?? Advantages - everyone knows how useful are these tools ........ Many thanks

[veloo maniam]

new tools or ATC

It will take another 10 months to replace existing radar monitors which are already blurring. The new tools that u have mentioned is something the next generation of ATCers might get to place their hands on. At the moment we are not even in the list of 'everyone knows how important these tools are'.It takes a pro-active department to look into such things BUT sad to say we are very far from it.That's the virtual reality.

[The Rage]

Veloo old boy,

Any track shortining is a bonus, mostly in the long run. If its a significant shortening yes it shows up straight away, in terms fuel and time especially when airframe time is also a factor these days.

Shall do the teh tarik thinggy again, was nice to finally meet the people behind the voice.

Cheers.
The Rage

Ciao

[Brianigham]

fuel saved

Dear Veloo,

Thanks heaps for the track shortening. Yupp every minute does count, not only in terms of fuel, but also engine time etc.

How much we actually save per minute would be very subjective. There are many variables to consider, for example a/c type, weight etc.

The actual feedback from the number crunchers, on data.......of actual savings due to these "leaning" initiatives.....is as always hard to come by, even to us "fuel burning, control column manipulating, rudder kicking folks"

However the concern about the fuel saved being carried along, is something we pilots kinda like. Its like a trump card, or at least a piece of it, that we try to collect bit by bit.

Cheers!

[veloo maniam]

Fuel Conservations

Tks again guys..will continue with the track shortenings. A colleague of mine will be working on the track miles available reports as soon as STAR is discontinued. Currently due to radar clutter within the TMA this practice is not widely done but something is coming up.P/s once descend speed restrictions are given, dct tracks won't be available for arrivals. For departures it will be based on traffic conditions.

[veloo maniam]

Diversions

How does a diversion affect u guys n what kind of reports do you submit?There were 7 diversions yesterday(17th FEB in the evening). Mainly due to weather at KLIA and enroute holding due to RWY change.Four went to PEN. One to SZB n two to JHB.As for us, we log down the diverting acfts c/sign n reason. Thanks 4 the replies.

[jetrat]

klia hardware reporting

hi there velloo..........

just wondering, what's the best way to report stuff about the klia...i.e taxiway, lighting etc.

i am particularly interested in reporting about the really serious BUMPS the narrowbodies have to endure everytime we transition from a concrete portion to the tarred portion of taxiways/apron/runway...

i'm sure you may have noticed that on your rides too...the really significant ones are of course those at the beginning of the runways,

it really feels like the whole plane is breaking apart....

your comments.....

[veloo maniam]

Bumpy taxiways

Hi Jetrat..I quite agree with u. It's like sitting on a horse everytime u are approaching the Runway. I may be wrong but I think the transition into R14R is bad. It's MAB's responsibility. Tarring will involve plenty of RM. Perhaps Airport Standards in DCA might throw in some light. Let me talk to my friend. I will post whatever the info I get. In the meantime kindly advise your pax to take up horse riding.Cheers.

[Brianigham]

[flightleader]

Veloo,

Typically a diversion on a 737 to say PEN would burn around 1700kgs just to fly there. It would probably sit on the ground in PEN for refuelling and weather to clear in KUL. Then it would burn another 1700kgs to fly to KUL that is excluding any holding,sequencing vectors....In a very general summary,a diversion from KUL would cost 3 hours and about 3500kgs of fuel per 737. How much is $$? Let the accountant sort it out.

So,a good commander would always avoid a diversion.Action can be delaying a departure out of origin if the destination weather is bad as the time taken for the flight is less than the time for the storm to dissipate,or take a little more fuel just in case has to hold it out,and taking consideration that you would not be the only one need to divert.Like 17th Feb,I believe SZB weather would be on the edge as well and JHB might have reach it's maximum capacity,choice of alternate would have to be chosen care fully. For a flight from say East Malaysia is not easy to predict the weather.But for a return flight within Peninsular ie:KUL-PEN-KUL is not very hard to imagine what sort of weather one would be when return. A very general rule,CB with tops below 10'000ft post no harm in 3 hours,CB with top in excess of 28'000ft can turn into monster in 30mins,CB has anvil top or looks like a fat lady with a flaring skirt at the bottom has to be repected like a lady,ie: when she can no longer hold herself together,she'll piss all over town and spoil a pilot's(and ATCer) day.

ATC radar would be able to pick up significant weather, can't you?I've seen the Tower's radar in BKI that show brown boxes which I believe was weather.What woud be ATC guildline or procedure in vectoring a/c around weather?

[flightleader]

Another thing that I wish to see, Why is the airway like A457 from KUL to PEN has so many bents?Why wasn't it been design as a straight line? In Europe, we can sector control more frequent than KUL FIR, But the clearence is always direct to FIR boundaries where often enough is the airways itself.In other words,if the airways doesn't take you straight to the FIR boundary exit point,the ATC will clear you direct.

It would be nice the 1st call to 119.45/124.2 or 132.6 would be issue direct to PADLI or PK.Like wise going up north get 'DIRECT VPG'.

[DutyFree]

Slow Down

Hi Veloo
Appreciate very much to convey to your Controllers, particularly in East Malaysia, to slow down the speed of delivery, and to record ATIS at a dictation speed please. Perhaps deliver in ‘chunks’ with pauses in between for a suggestion.
The timing for R/T on ground can be better, eg Airways Clearance is available during our push back or engine start, and requesting for Aircraft Registration during landing roll before slow taxi speed, which becomes a disruption during our high workload time.
TKoose mentioned this previously and I feel the same

Thanks
DutyFree

[CPDLC est]

Slow down indeed. May I add another one on KK. How often u get clearance after landing like "EXPEDITE clearing B to hold at A" whilst the pilot is still on his brakes and full reverse. The word expedite has become a common place there. I believe no pilot would want to stay long on the runway especially knowing that there are other traffic around. rgds. Good work here Veloo

[veloo maniam]

weather info

Hi flightleader...sorry about the delay..had a problem with broadband...tks 4 the input about the diversion. ATC is unable to give u accurate wx details basically due to our radars do not give us the intensity of the actual wx. Unlike u chaps, we don't have colour codes on our radars.Pro active Controllers will provide info available from preceding acft.However I find that u guys are well aware. Yes those brown boxes that u saw in Kinablu is actually what we see over here. However they are no help to us with regards to what kind of clouds are out there. We have to depend on u guys to ask for the required deviations. Sometimes the ATCer approves immediately ur request for deviation provided there is no conflict whatsoever.There were times when acft from SIN enroute to BKK deviated as far as ADNUT b4 setting course to VKB thus jeopardising tfc descending into KUL from PK. In some cases the ATCer has to measure the heading that cud be best for him/her i.e why they keep asking whether u cud accept a heading contrary to ur request.( In the meantime some thinking n coordination takes place).so there u are my friend, we have to depend on u solely for wx deviation requirements.
Our procedures are strict in the sense that we must not disapprove any requests for wx. We have to approve it.We don't have colour codes on our radar.There is one wx terminal at the Approach. However it is placed right behind the Approach Controller whereby he/she can't even make use of it whatmore many don't even refer to it.It is about aprox 8ft away.So much so for wxSo much so for planning.So much so for wx.
Next:
Regarding the Airway structures.B4 KLIA was commissioned the Govt appointed a company by the name of AMS to design the airways. What we have today is whatever this company designed. The present airways were designed with Subang n Simpang in mind. At that time Simpang was supposed to be a City Airport with a lot of IFR departures (Executive jets).However till 2day Simpang is still IFR(I Follow Railroad). Now with Subang being too close 4 comfort, the bends were necessary. A dep from 32R will take u straight into acft descending for 32L arrivals from the North. I.e why the Agosa A SID. Even u have observed that the Agosa B will always be given a headin of 295 etc. If u were to follow the actual SID for Agosa B, u will come head on with the guy approaching 14L via KIKAL. why, u might even be able to read his/her name tag if u were to follow the actual Agosa B SID..i.e why my friend, all the bends. Be thankful that there are no roundabouts.These days I see a number of ATCers providing dct tracks whenever they are available. e.g dct Kendi, Sukat Gival, Tepus to Tamos , dct to PK or Padli etc.

[veloo maniam]

Speech Rate

Yes I am aware of the ridiculous speech rate by our ATCers especially on the ATIS/ACD etc. There was a time I was at the Clearence Delivery when this particular ATCer delivered an ATcrnce very fast. I asked this guy why the speed when there is nobody else in the freq. His answer was "By now they all know what we are talking about". Basically my friend It's an attitude problem. Guess what, the pilot said "say again slowly". This guy was a MH pilot.One other thing u wud have observed. Clearences on request. The guy shoots out a clearance without even asking whether the pilot is ready to copy. They think that pilots are doing crossword puzzles while waiting for the clearance.
ATCers are trained not to ask any info or give instructions during finals where the cockpit workload is heavy UNLESS for air safety reasons ONLY.There is an existing instruction to ATCers not to ask for POB or Registration while acft is on finals. My friends, do me a favour. U have the right to call up the Tower or Centre Supervisor n report any shortcomings which may lead to an incident. I do not know the tfc situation in Kinabalu BUT I believe the Expedite thing can be given at first contact on the tower freq.I do this at Subang if there is a need. It helps both Pilot n Controller.Registration can always be obtained by ground Controller and that is common sense.I wonder why these guys go for familiarisation flights.

[veloo maniam]

Good ATC habits

Chew from DCA HQ is doing a tremendous job by highlighting good ATC work culture via the Safety Mgmnt System Bulletin.He goes as far to even put it on a CD. Many ATC shortcomings from within n outside Malaysia is highlighted in these Bulletins. Incidents n sollutions are always mentioned.They are there for all ATCers to improve. Looks like private ATC tuition on a one to one basis is seriuosly needed. Over to u Chew.

[flightleader]

Ah....I'm enlighterned. Veloo,I salute you for your open attitude in admitting ATCers' short comings and accepting criticism and inputs.Your initiative in starting this topic has bring good things in Malaysia Aviation.You are the man!

[CPDLC est]

This site was written by an ATCer in HKG in 1999 but nevertheless a good read for pilots to understand the controllers better. Rgds

http://neilt.org/aviation/atchk1999/atchk1999.html