R/T status in KL FIR
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Interesting point u've brought up there! Ive heard SID's being broadcast on the ATIS before, but dont recall any STAR's. Would be interesting to See how the guys react to this. It would certainly cut down the chatter. But i suppose it would only work for the 1 STAR, being PADLI Nipar 3A, Istan A. I beleive the other east inbound Stars would still req alt clearence due to outbound traffic. I suppose as a note on the ATIS, it could be mentioned that 'inbounds traffic from pos xxx are cleared on the xxx xxxx! But before that please check if it is allowed to pass clearence tru the atis, but at the same time it should only be during peak hours and on any 1 route only. Also to make sure the guys have the correct atis info. It also hepls to keep the atis short, otherwise it might take too long for us to be listening into the atis.
I guess Jetrat is back from Timbuktu, give him a call, beleive he has his number published or PM him.
It was Asian Express.
The Rage
Ciao.
I guess Jetrat is back from Timbuktu, give him a call, beleive he has his number published or PM him.
It was Asian Express.
The Rage
Ciao.
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Hello everyone,
This is a lot better than going through the motion of writing a letter requesting an audience and such...
With regards to the arrival clearances on ATIS, I believe there is a problem with that from the standpoint of R/T failure. Its a protocol issue that can definitely be remedied if everyone puts their head in it.
What I can suggest is something like this. R/W info is given in the ATIS, therefore ATIS can say R/W 32R for departure, R/W 32L for arrival. On first contact, the clearance will be 'XXX, maintain level, cleared Istan transition Nipar 3A'. That cuts down from 'XXX cleared on NIPAR 3A Arrival, R/W 32L, Istan A Tx, maintain FL 330. Its a lot shorter when you actually verbalize it.
My 2 sen.
This is a lot better than going through the motion of writing a letter requesting an audience and such...
With regards to the arrival clearances on ATIS, I believe there is a problem with that from the standpoint of R/T failure. Its a protocol issue that can definitely be remedied if everyone puts their head in it.
What I can suggest is something like this. R/W info is given in the ATIS, therefore ATIS can say R/W 32R for departure, R/W 32L for arrival. On first contact, the clearance will be 'XXX, maintain level, cleared Istan transition Nipar 3A'. That cuts down from 'XXX cleared on NIPAR 3A Arrival, R/W 32L, Istan A Tx, maintain FL 330. Its a lot shorter when you actually verbalize it.
My 2 sen.
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Gong Xi Fa Cai
Hello members of PPRUNE utilising the KUL ATC SERVICES: We wish all members celebrating the Chinese New Year a very happy Gong Xi Fa Cai. May our relationship improve for the betterment of the aviation community through PPRUNE.Civil Aviation Air Traffic Control Services Union.
Why not rename the STARs into numbers like in China, Instead of saying"Nipar Three Alpha Arrival,Istan transition,Runway 32L", Why not just " STAR 3 for 32L"? Just use numbers. Same STAR with different transition can be put as different numbers.
They name their local hospital by numbers too!
They name their local hospital by numbers too!
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Tq Flightleader....an interesting point u have brought up. The operational ATCers have been discussing this method b4 BUT as usual it is still at the level of discussion.STAR 3 wud suffice as traffic from the east is increasing. We are also experiencing an increase from the North (132.8) lately.I'll forward this sugestion to the ATS guys and see what they can do about it.R/T congestion is something we wud like to do away with.One more thing...we are observing a number of False Idents on our Radar Screens.We are quite used to the sqawk codes n we normally ignore them. However on two occasions , Pilots reported tfc on their TCAS. Once was by Transmile n the other by Silkair.I wud like to know whether any of u guys have picked up these false idents. Pls let us know. It really gives us a jolt when the pilot requests for tfc info at same level, especially within the TMA where there is a lot of radar clutter.
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hi there veloo,
i have to agree with flight leader on the numbering suggestion. not only does it make it easier for us when there are so many arrivals involved, i'm sure it helps the foreign crew even more. how many times have you had to repeat nipar for eg. to the foreign crew. instead of: "ni-par-three-al-pha-is-tan-al-pha-tran-si-tion-run-way-three-two-left", no-vem-ber-one, would SERIOUSLY help everyone. save you a couple of litres of water too.....
in fact, instead of changing the name of the stars all together, which may involve too much of a change, you could ADD a prefix. to reflect the existing stars,
something like N3A for the same arrival, also, for a first step towards reducing rt,how about NOT including the r/w 32L as part of the star name. after all, runway in use is already broadcast in the ATIS. just nipar 3a via istan would suffice.... it's an 8 syllable transmition, instead of the present 17, not mentioning the readback part. that's more than half the amount of saliva and breath saved.....
pull tea after i fetch the family back from the kampung!!!!!!
i have to agree with flight leader on the numbering suggestion. not only does it make it easier for us when there are so many arrivals involved, i'm sure it helps the foreign crew even more. how many times have you had to repeat nipar for eg. to the foreign crew. instead of: "ni-par-three-al-pha-is-tan-al-pha-tran-si-tion-run-way-three-two-left", no-vem-ber-one, would SERIOUSLY help everyone. save you a couple of litres of water too.....
in fact, instead of changing the name of the stars all together, which may involve too much of a change, you could ADD a prefix. to reflect the existing stars,
something like N3A for the same arrival, also, for a first step towards reducing rt,how about NOT including the r/w 32L as part of the star name. after all, runway in use is already broadcast in the ATIS. just nipar 3a via istan would suffice.... it's an 8 syllable transmition, instead of the present 17, not mentioning the readback part. that's more than half the amount of saliva and breath saved.....
pull tea after i fetch the family back from the kampung!!!!!!
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balik kampung
Ok Jetrat, let all this CNY holiday thingy settle down first.Get the family back safely, that's the no.1 thing. we'll tarik the tea later.
ni-par-three-al-pha-is-tan-al-pha-tran-si-tion-rwy-three-two-left. U must b joking.all saliva gone.Only thing left will be R32.
ni-par-three-al-pha-is-tan-al-pha-tran-si-tion-rwy-three-two-left. U must b joking.all saliva gone.Only thing left will be R32.
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Question? Do u actually pick it those targets up on secondary or primary radar?
The reason i mentioned this is, ive had tcas displays before without alt readout. It usually happens out at sea. In our airspace ive seen it over lumut and over the rigs in the south china sea. After frantically looking out i notice its usually a navy ship, maybe it could be carrying a heli or something, but on most encounters i beleive its that or sometimes it could be light a/c traffic outside of your jurisdiction, Maybe.
"I think We're short of two engines my dear"
The Rage
Ciao
The reason i mentioned this is, ive had tcas displays before without alt readout. It usually happens out at sea. In our airspace ive seen it over lumut and over the rigs in the south china sea. After frantically looking out i notice its usually a navy ship, maybe it could be carrying a heli or something, but on most encounters i beleive its that or sometimes it could be light a/c traffic outside of your jurisdiction, Maybe.
"I think We're short of two engines my dear"
The Rage
Ciao
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False Idents
These targets are picked up by both pri n sec radar. They usually appear between PK n dashes across on a heading of 290 towards Lumut and vice-versa.They also do appear quite often along the fringes of Lumpur TMA around the Bentong(ADNUT) area.Frightening at times because the G/Speed is of a jet acft aprox 460-480kts.Cioa
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Hello,
Just got back from flight yesterday. My observation was that on 132.6, the quality of transmission by KL ATC is still poor after the coast. Is there any way to install a repeater station somewhere on top of a hill so we can have better quality transmission on this frequency? This is especially important because there are a lot of flights to and from the orient and some of the flightjocks have a bit of a problem understanding the English language. With a less than satisfactory transmission from you guys, the job is made 300% more difficult for everybody.
I also observed the following:
1) At times, there are some clearances that are not read back satisfactorily but the ATC does not request another readback.
2) At times, there are aircrafts coming out from the satellite taxiways while another is taxiing on taxiway G or F. Due to the different frequencies, there is no opportunity for monitoring the frequency. I suspect there is a potential for an incident or worst accident in the future if we do not resolve this.
3) This is not my original idea, but its worth a look. Due to the ATC now taking the initiative to delay start clearance (which I support wholeheartedly), why don't you guys impose this also: pilots are to request for ATC clearances only after they are fully ready, not 5 minutes before pushback. There are times when we think that its 5 minutes to go but last minute we had to delay because of passenger, cargo problems etc. Therefore, it will not be fair to the rest that is by then ready because they called 2 minutes later. This is already being done in HKG and certain Chinese airports.
4) To further optimise the pushback, why dont we make a study of the pushback and taxi time from each bay. Later on, we will be able to optimise the pushback time for everyone at every bay and further improve the runway utilisation. In the big airports in the US, they have softwares to monitor traffic movement around the airport and they have a specific frequency called 'metering' to ensure the runway/s remains 'hot'.
Thats all for now...
Just got back from flight yesterday. My observation was that on 132.6, the quality of transmission by KL ATC is still poor after the coast. Is there any way to install a repeater station somewhere on top of a hill so we can have better quality transmission on this frequency? This is especially important because there are a lot of flights to and from the orient and some of the flightjocks have a bit of a problem understanding the English language. With a less than satisfactory transmission from you guys, the job is made 300% more difficult for everybody.
I also observed the following:
1) At times, there are some clearances that are not read back satisfactorily but the ATC does not request another readback.
2) At times, there are aircrafts coming out from the satellite taxiways while another is taxiing on taxiway G or F. Due to the different frequencies, there is no opportunity for monitoring the frequency. I suspect there is a potential for an incident or worst accident in the future if we do not resolve this.
3) This is not my original idea, but its worth a look. Due to the ATC now taking the initiative to delay start clearance (which I support wholeheartedly), why don't you guys impose this also: pilots are to request for ATC clearances only after they are fully ready, not 5 minutes before pushback. There are times when we think that its 5 minutes to go but last minute we had to delay because of passenger, cargo problems etc. Therefore, it will not be fair to the rest that is by then ready because they called 2 minutes later. This is already being done in HKG and certain Chinese airports.
4) To further optimise the pushback, why dont we make a study of the pushback and taxi time from each bay. Later on, we will be able to optimise the pushback time for everyone at every bay and further improve the runway utilisation. In the big airports in the US, they have softwares to monitor traffic movement around the airport and they have a specific frequency called 'metering' to ensure the runway/s remains 'hot'.
Thats all for now...
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Well its probably the Fast Jet Jocks out of Kuantan or maybe Butterworth doing something that their boses are not aware off. But i dont think low level military a/c have to report to u guys, do they?
We used to get loads of them, where we were trained, and usually they flew 500'Agl and below. No one knew where and when they would appear. Maybe the guys at JATCC next door might know a thing or 2.
Other conspiracy theories:
Unauthorised flts at high level, Who??
Genetically modified migratory birds.
Jetrat playing games with u guys from Bentong, ex-commiee.
The Rage,
Ciao.
P.S. When's the get together?
We used to get loads of them, where we were trained, and usually they flew 500'Agl and below. No one knew where and when they would appear. Maybe the guys at JATCC next door might know a thing or 2.
Other conspiracy theories:
Unauthorised flts at high level, Who??
Genetically modified migratory birds.
Jetrat playing games with u guys from Bentong, ex-commiee.
The Rage,
Ciao.
P.S. When's the get together?
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KLIA Ground n False Targets
Hello CI54, when u say 132.6 is still poor after the coast, I reckon u are eastbound.Correct me if I am wrong.Will discuss with the right "Pengarah" at DCA and see if the signal strength can be increased.(this will include a meeting with Telekom so don't expect things to move fast) Your KLIA observation has been passed to the person concerned.Tks 4 highlighting potential incidents.As for your other highlights someone from KLIA will be answering.
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False Idents
Hi Rage, it's definitely not the jocks from the a/force. The sqawk codes are always the same (7224/5224 etc) The sqawk codes from BUT and KUA are different.Even the low-level guys are known to us as they switch over to Flt Info.These are targets that appear everyday. Just got back from work.There were 4 this morning between VBA and GUNIP.Yesterday there was one at F430 and the target was quite close to one Indian Airlines A320. I asked the PIC whether he has that target(psn given) on his TCAS. The answer was -ve.So take heart my friend, it wasn't Jetrat, it's our ageing radar screens.
Teh-Tarik..how about the 12th of FEB. It's a Sunday. 4.30pm Kayu Restaurant SS2 PJ .Other suggestions welcome. Chew is at DCA HQ on Office Hours.
Teh-Tarik..how about the 12th of FEB. It's a Sunday. 4.30pm Kayu Restaurant SS2 PJ .Other suggestions welcome. Chew is at DCA HQ on Office Hours.
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Hello veloo_maniam,
Thanks for the excellent response. Already seeing some procedural changes made by Lumpur Ground. Observed the frequency changes to 122.15 when aircrafts from satellite enters F or G. Good on ya, mate !
Had the opportunity to fly north east and east. My observation is the degradation of the quality of area control transmission is when one is flying towards/from PK and north east of the peninsula. If one is flying toward/from Padli side, the quality of transmission is really good. So, there is a good chance that the problem is really not from the ATC side but from the telekom side. Hope we can resolve this soon.
Will look forward to that teh tarik session to discuss about the other issues...
Regards.
Thanks for the excellent response. Already seeing some procedural changes made by Lumpur Ground. Observed the frequency changes to 122.15 when aircrafts from satellite enters F or G. Good on ya, mate
!Had the opportunity to fly north east and east. My observation is the degradation of the quality of area control transmission is when one is flying towards/from PK and north east of the peninsula. If one is flying toward/from Padli side, the quality of transmission is really good. So, there is a good chance that the problem is really not from the ATC side but from the telekom side. Hope we can resolve this soon.
Will look forward to that teh tarik session to discuss about the other issues...
Regards.
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Teh Tarik.
Hi Veloomaniam and guys,
Interesting thread . The only one in pprune I have read over and over.
Thanks for switching dates to the 13th......looks like I might be able to make it after all.
An idea on the flights departing IPH/KUA/SZB. Could the respective Tower guys give you an estimate on their airborne time to avoid their sudden arrival on the scene. Maybe we could also give an ETA over "dakus" for instance, to assist with the planning.
Another thing with STARS:
As a pilot, I just love it when the STAR is followed as planned......or track shortening. This is because of the gold juice factor. I am sure you guys would just love that too. Put them all on rails with automatic magnetic force giving the required spacing. But then of course .......
What I feel would be helpful is getting a track mile count as soon as the STAR has to be discontinued for any reason. This can do a lot for fuel conservation.
My thoughts on RT quality and equiptment are a little to bold for publishing.
but hey....
I've flown around quite a bit myself, and find the quality of controllers here quite good. There must be a concerted effort by the GOVT to get out of this second fiddle mentality. Get the best equipment, spend the money,get the controllers all the exposure,training and support they need. As a tax paying citizen, involved in aviation and understanding the importance of having fully serviceable modern equiptment for ATC I am sad at the state of affairs. The customer knows that the machinery is creaky. nuff said there.
Keep up the good work guys. I have seen some "best in the world" vectoring and controling right here in my backyard.....no kiddin! And you guys know it too. I can feel the great sense of victory all the way up there, when a plan comes together and everything falls into place like the conclusion of a great symphony.
Interesting thread . The only one in pprune I have read over and over.
Thanks for switching dates to the 13th......looks like I might be able to make it after all.
An idea on the flights departing IPH/KUA/SZB. Could the respective Tower guys give you an estimate on their airborne time to avoid their sudden arrival on the scene. Maybe we could also give an ETA over "dakus" for instance, to assist with the planning.
Another thing with STARS:
As a pilot, I just love it when the STAR is followed as planned......or track shortening. This is because of the gold juice factor. I am sure you guys would just love that too. Put them all on rails with automatic magnetic force giving the required spacing. But then of course .......
What I feel would be helpful is getting a track mile count as soon as the STAR has to be discontinued for any reason. This can do a lot for fuel conservation.
My thoughts on RT quality and equiptment are a little to bold for publishing.
but hey....
I've flown around quite a bit myself, and find the quality of controllers here quite good. There must be a concerted effort by the GOVT to get out of this second fiddle mentality. Get the best equipment, spend the money,get the controllers all the exposure,training and support they need. As a tax paying citizen, involved in aviation and understanding the importance of having fully serviceable modern equiptment for ATC I am sad at the state of affairs. The customer knows that the machinery is creaky. nuff said there.
Keep up the good work guys. I have seen some "best in the world" vectoring and controling right here in my backyard.....no kiddin! And you guys know it too. I can feel the great sense of victory all the way up there, when a plan comes together and everything falls into place like the conclusion of a great symphony.
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KUL ATC
Hi Brianigham..tks 4 jumping on board..glad to hear your observations.
Yes..as a matter of fact ATC at SZB is aware of these departures from local aerodromes. In fact we have to make a request from Flow Control with regards to clearences for such depatures. This is actually a concerted effort by the AREA PROCEDURE Controller n the Flow Controller.He has to ensure that these departures do not actually interfere the normal arrivals. However due to increasing tfc we really can't keep them on ground for too long. Hence at times we let them go and do some vectoring n speed controls to bring them in. ATC is quite particular with the KUA depatures as a lot of tfc from the EAST is a norm these days. Yes, the ATD(Actual time of dep) is passed to us. Sometimes as AreaRadar Controllers, we will quickly call up the other aerodromes n check the position of the acft. Based on this info, we will advise the Tower Controllers to either delay or give a slot time. Have taken into account the track miles available when STAR is discontinued. As u might be aware the separation needed in Area Radar is 10nm whereas in Approach is 5nm. If u are trailing another acft with less than 10nm, help us to slow down to ensure the 10nm. It will be a great help to us. Yes, we ATCers know the conditions of the overall equippment. The Minister himself has assured that there will be new Air Traffic Equippment by the end of this year. Until then we have to carry on somehow. They are moving at snails pace because a lot of this equippment has been tied up with the Kota Baru and Johore Radar projects. This is the Sad story as far as ATC equippment is concerned. The Union is keeping tabs and will see what the outcome is going to be. It will be great if u guys keep posting the shortcomings in Lumpur FIR. At least the DCA will know that the Union is NOT Exagerrating or sensationalising things.The crux of the message is AIR SAFETY. Just imagine ATCer's transmitting 3 times in busy moments to the same acft. Mind u this is only the clearance. My question is what if it is a matter concerning AIR SAFETY? C U at Kayu. ciao.
Yes..as a matter of fact ATC at SZB is aware of these departures from local aerodromes. In fact we have to make a request from Flow Control with regards to clearences for such depatures. This is actually a concerted effort by the AREA PROCEDURE Controller n the Flow Controller.He has to ensure that these departures do not actually interfere the normal arrivals. However due to increasing tfc we really can't keep them on ground for too long. Hence at times we let them go and do some vectoring n speed controls to bring them in. ATC is quite particular with the KUA depatures as a lot of tfc from the EAST is a norm these days. Yes, the ATD(Actual time of dep) is passed to us. Sometimes as AreaRadar Controllers, we will quickly call up the other aerodromes n check the position of the acft. Based on this info, we will advise the Tower Controllers to either delay or give a slot time. Have taken into account the track miles available when STAR is discontinued. As u might be aware the separation needed in Area Radar is 10nm whereas in Approach is 5nm. If u are trailing another acft with less than 10nm, help us to slow down to ensure the 10nm. It will be a great help to us. Yes, we ATCers know the conditions of the overall equippment. The Minister himself has assured that there will be new Air Traffic Equippment by the end of this year. Until then we have to carry on somehow. They are moving at snails pace because a lot of this equippment has been tied up with the Kota Baru and Johore Radar projects. This is the Sad story as far as ATC equippment is concerned. The Union is keeping tabs and will see what the outcome is going to be. It will be great if u guys keep posting the shortcomings in Lumpur FIR. At least the DCA will know that the Union is NOT Exagerrating or sensationalising things.The crux of the message is AIR SAFETY. Just imagine ATCer's transmitting 3 times in busy moments to the same acft. Mind u this is only the clearance. My question is what if it is a matter concerning AIR SAFETY? C U at Kayu. ciao.