Jade Cargo
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The writing is on the wall here, isn't it?
Salary/pay - well below industry standards, even for a start-up. All start-ups use that famous phrase because that's the only way they can justify it.
Also, the more complex you make the pay and per diems etc, the more likely that there is a hidden agenda such as....you'll never make it to 80 hours a month.
Interesting that the majority of "successful" candidates are not typed. Normally, you would expect at least a 50-50 split.
$1200 out of your monthly pay towards the training costs for 3 years. Who came up with that figure and more importantly, how was it derived? To the uninitiated, a 744 type on average costs around $12-30K, depending on which training organisation you use. Boeing's Alteon in SEA charges around $13,000 (not including hotac). So, at that rate, if YOU were paying the type yourself at the SAME deductible rate, it would take approx 1 year to pay it off. My question is why are they insisting to deduct 1200/month for THREE years??? That's far too much. It would be cheaper if you bought the rating right off the bat!!! Are they going to give any of this "withheld" money back after 3 years if you stay? With interest?
As you can see, this whole thing generates far more questions than it answers. It is clearly not the plump job that it first seemed. I suppose if you want to fly a nice new 744 and build some time it's OK but at what sacrifice? Are you paying a hefty mortgage at home? KIds in school or university? How often will you get home?
You really need to weigh the advantages - such as they are (or not!) against the downers before you decide if this is for you. IT might well be OK for some but I suspect the veterans among us expect a little bit more and not have our intelligence called into question.
Have a nice day!
Salary/pay - well below industry standards, even for a start-up. All start-ups use that famous phrase because that's the only way they can justify it.
Also, the more complex you make the pay and per diems etc, the more likely that there is a hidden agenda such as....you'll never make it to 80 hours a month.
Interesting that the majority of "successful" candidates are not typed. Normally, you would expect at least a 50-50 split.
$1200 out of your monthly pay towards the training costs for 3 years. Who came up with that figure and more importantly, how was it derived? To the uninitiated, a 744 type on average costs around $12-30K, depending on which training organisation you use. Boeing's Alteon in SEA charges around $13,000 (not including hotac). So, at that rate, if YOU were paying the type yourself at the SAME deductible rate, it would take approx 1 year to pay it off. My question is why are they insisting to deduct 1200/month for THREE years??? That's far too much. It would be cheaper if you bought the rating right off the bat!!! Are they going to give any of this "withheld" money back after 3 years if you stay? With interest?
As you can see, this whole thing generates far more questions than it answers. It is clearly not the plump job that it first seemed. I suppose if you want to fly a nice new 744 and build some time it's OK but at what sacrifice? Are you paying a hefty mortgage at home? KIds in school or university? How often will you get home?
You really need to weigh the advantages - such as they are (or not!) against the downers before you decide if this is for you. IT might well be OK for some but I suspect the veterans among us expect a little bit more and not have our intelligence called into question.
Have a nice day!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: at home
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jade
To reclarify: Jade are investing in expensive aircraft and expensive training, but they are going cheap on pilots. The contract is $8000 net (they dont seem to have worked out the gross yet though i am sure tax in Shenzen is not secret), for a Capt ,type rated, flying 50 hours. $5600 for a first officer. deduct $1200 per month from these figures if not type rated. There is no accomodation allowance, no medical insurance, very poor loss of license insurance and $3 per hour per diem but not from signing on to signing off, these are from arrival to departure. There is no guaranteed time off at home (eg the usual 9 days per month or so, 12 with Asiana!) The cherry on the cake is that you will have to sit the Chinese ATPL. Above $50 hrs per month you will recieve $50 per hour (it is $160 per hour before.) with one aircraft arriving in jul and one in Nov it will be many years before you fly more that 50 hours so the $9500 p/a is a smokescreen. Also of course if you go on leave etc the salary will drop to the basic 50 hour salary.
The staff of the company are charming and Shenzen is a nice place however they have made a bad decision to be the poorest paying 747-400 operator on the planet. Firstly it sends the wrong messages about the company, secondly it will cost them in the long term: type rated pilots will get fed up when they see their final net salary and move on to other operators. In the unlikely event that the company can retrieve the $1200 per month 'bond' it will still be worth the move because Jade are paying SO far below the market rate. Additionally the company is having to pay for line trainers etc from another source because they do not pay enough to recruit their own type rated experience. ironically this will cost them more than paying the market rate for such pilots in the first place.
Jade's LOWEST offer should be: Min $9750 net capt, $6750 f/o regardless of hours flown. Overtime after 80 hours. Accomodation allowance, loss of license ins, medical insurance, $4 per hour per diem from sign on to sign off and guaranteed min of 9 days at home per month.(The latter could be at no cost with their present planned manning of 12 crews per aircraft by using a sophisticated scheduling system). This package would still be below the competition packages but may make Jade attractive enough. As it is they have badly miscalculated the contract and are likely to attract the waifs and strays of the industry. They will certainly be starting operations wthout enough experienced type rated crews and this can only come back and haunt them.
The staff of the company are charming and Shenzen is a nice place however they have made a bad decision to be the poorest paying 747-400 operator on the planet. Firstly it sends the wrong messages about the company, secondly it will cost them in the long term: type rated pilots will get fed up when they see their final net salary and move on to other operators. In the unlikely event that the company can retrieve the $1200 per month 'bond' it will still be worth the move because Jade are paying SO far below the market rate. Additionally the company is having to pay for line trainers etc from another source because they do not pay enough to recruit their own type rated experience. ironically this will cost them more than paying the market rate for such pilots in the first place.
Jade's LOWEST offer should be: Min $9750 net capt, $6750 f/o regardless of hours flown. Overtime after 80 hours. Accomodation allowance, loss of license ins, medical insurance, $4 per hour per diem from sign on to sign off and guaranteed min of 9 days at home per month.(The latter could be at no cost with their present planned manning of 12 crews per aircraft by using a sophisticated scheduling system). This package would still be below the competition packages but may make Jade attractive enough. As it is they have badly miscalculated the contract and are likely to attract the waifs and strays of the industry. They will certainly be starting operations wthout enough experienced type rated crews and this can only come back and haunt them.
Last edited by figleaf; 12th May 2006 at 11:55.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by figleaf
To reclarify: Jade are investing in expensive aircraft and expensive training, but they are going cheap on pilots. The contract is $8000 net (they dont seem to have worked out the gross yet though i am sure tax in Shenzen is not secret), for a Capt ,type rated, flying 50 hours. $5600 for a first officer. deduct $1200 per month from these figures if not type rated. There is no accomodation allowance, no medical insurance, very poor loss of license insurance and $3 per hour per diem but not from signing on to signing off, these are from arrival to departure. There is no guaranteed time off at home (eg the usual 9 days per month or so, 12 with Asiana!) The cherry on the cake is that you will have to sit the Chinese ATPL. Above $50 hrs per month you will recieve $50 per hour (it is $160 per hour before.) with one aircraft arriving in jul and one in Nov it will be many years before you fly more that 50 hours so the $9500 p/a is a smokescreen. Also of course if you go on leave etc the salary will drop to the basic 50 hour salary.
The staff of the company are charming and Shenzen is a nice place however they have made a poor decision to be the poorest paying 747-400 operator on the planet. Firstly it sends the wrong messages about the company, secondly it will cost them in the long term: type rated pilots will get fed up when they see their final net salary and move on to other operators. In the unlikely event that the company can retrieve the $1200 per month 'bond' it will still be worth the move because Jade are paying SO far below the market rate. Additionally the company is having to pay for line trainers etc from another source because they do not pay enough to recruit their own type rated experience. ironically this will cost them more than paying the market rate for such pilots in the first place.
Jade's LOWEST offer should be: Min $9500 net capt $6500 f/o regardless of hours flown. Overtime after 80 hours. Accomodation allowance, loss of license ins, medical insurance, $4 per hour per diem from sign on to sign off and guaranteed min of 9 days at home per month. This would still be below the competition packages but may make Jade attractive enough. As it is they have badly miscalculated the contract and are likely to attract the waifs and strays of the industry. They will certainly be starting operations wthout enough experienced type rated crews and this can only come back and haunt them.
The staff of the company are charming and Shenzen is a nice place however they have made a poor decision to be the poorest paying 747-400 operator on the planet. Firstly it sends the wrong messages about the company, secondly it will cost them in the long term: type rated pilots will get fed up when they see their final net salary and move on to other operators. In the unlikely event that the company can retrieve the $1200 per month 'bond' it will still be worth the move because Jade are paying SO far below the market rate. Additionally the company is having to pay for line trainers etc from another source because they do not pay enough to recruit their own type rated experience. ironically this will cost them more than paying the market rate for such pilots in the first place.
Jade's LOWEST offer should be: Min $9500 net capt $6500 f/o regardless of hours flown. Overtime after 80 hours. Accomodation allowance, loss of license ins, medical insurance, $4 per hour per diem from sign on to sign off and guaranteed min of 9 days at home per month. This would still be below the competition packages but may make Jade attractive enough. As it is they have badly miscalculated the contract and are likely to attract the waifs and strays of the industry. They will certainly be starting operations wthout enough experienced type rated crews and this can only come back and haunt them.
There is NEVER anything to be gained, certainly not long-term, by being the LOWEST paying operator for the type. This type of strategy usually comes back to haunt those that strove for it and in the end, it will end up costing them far more than they imagined. Just think of the possible turnover costs!
Certainly, they will not be getting very many experienced guys or indeed, the most prized pilots - the trainers, unless there is substantial improvement in this package. Heck, I'm just a lowly FO with tons of international experience including cargo and I already get paid FAR more than this, including per diem. What is my incentive to move to a lower-paying job where I also won't get to fly that much?!!
Jade will get what they ask for, which is a pity because there are plenty of ways to keep costs low - even for a start-up, than cream the very people you depend on. I wish them and those who join luck, because they'll all need it..........
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apparently Jade has some 24 pilots training, mainly with British Airways but some 8 (not sure if 8 pilots or 8 crews, suspect 8 pilots) are training with Boeing (Alteon) as they got the courses at Boeing thrown in with the aircraft purchase......................Of course none of these folks have any -400 experience and in most cases no wide body or Ultra long haul experience, and having attended the screening in Shenzen everyone I spoke to who was type rated wouldn't consider working for the pittance that Jade wants to offer.............................The first aircraft is apparently arriving 25th July and they expect to Operate to Amsterdam twice a week and some obscure place in Italy plus flights to Incheon. They will have seconded British Airways pilots to do Line training for them, so BA must be laughing all the way to the Bank..............................
Jade needs to take a look at the market..................AND GET REAL
Jade needs to take a look at the market..................AND GET REAL
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The best in the world... of course!!!
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentleman,
German ourfit ,BA training, are you seriously talking ?
The last info. I have received is that, the medical it is extremelly difficult,and the DLR guys give no mercy at all, on their exams.
They even failed a guy because he is single parent !
The screening process it is really meant for astronauts, and Jade Cargo does not give any real support to the candidates meantime on selection process.
Things are not quite well organized in there.
Candidates have to find their way out to solve unplaned events.
Mercurius:
German ourfit ,BA training, are you seriously talking ?
The last info. I have received is that, the medical it is extremelly difficult,and the DLR guys give no mercy at all, on their exams.
They even failed a guy because he is single parent !
The screening process it is really meant for astronauts, and Jade Cargo does not give any real support to the candidates meantime on selection process.
Things are not quite well organized in there.
Candidates have to find their way out to solve unplaned events.
Mercurius:
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Captain Mercurius
Gentleman,
German ourfit ,BA training, are you seriously talking ?
The last info. I have received is that, the medical it is extremelly difficult,and the DLR guys give no mercy at all, on their exams.
They even failed a guy because he is single parent !
The screening process it is really meant for astronauts, and Jade Cargo does not give any real support to the candidates meantime on selection process.
Things are not quite well organized in there.
Candidates have to find their way out to solve unplaned events.
Mercurius:
German ourfit ,BA training, are you seriously talking ?
The last info. I have received is that, the medical it is extremelly difficult,and the DLR guys give no mercy at all, on their exams.
They even failed a guy because he is single parent !
The screening process it is really meant for astronauts, and Jade Cargo does not give any real support to the candidates meantime on selection process.
Things are not quite well organized in there.
Candidates have to find their way out to solve unplaned events.
Mercurius:
DEG and LH Cargo are partners and hold about 49% share. The rest is SHenzhen airlines - take a look at the ads and their website (if you can get to it).
Also, the medical is no secret. It's been mentioned many times before and is similar to what you do with the Japanese carriers, EVA Air or the majority of Asian carriers. The reason for this is that they do not give license validations and if you want to fly their Chinese/Taiwanese/Japanese registered aircraft, you will need to get an initial ATPL from their respective civil aviation authorities. Part of that deal is you also need an initial medical which in any country is going to be the most difficult/intensive. Yes, they do go to extremes as these medicals are designed for "20-year-old potential air force pilots." Therefore, if they have 40-50-year olds applying, many will find it tough unless they go through a fitness program BEFORE attending. That is precisely why so many fail. I'm not saying it's the right way - merely telling those that don't know what it is all about.
So, if you think you might have difficulty making the grade, you really have two choices. Get with the program or don't apply. Simple!
As I have said many times, you need to do your homework and dcide if this is for you. The unprepared candidate WILL be in for a BIG surprise and it will cost him/her in both time and money wasted....
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually they have chilled a bit on the medical front, give the jade guys their due they had various meetings to sort the medical problem and explain to the doctors that you have to make allowance for age.....................
The DLR part is just a pshyc profile, and english test followed by a CRM assessment questionaire, non of which should be a problem to anyone who can speak english.............................the sim assessment is very easy and as long as you don't crash you are likely to pass the sim
trouble is after all that they tell you what they are offering by way of salary
at this point most people lose interest !!!!
The DLR part is just a pshyc profile, and english test followed by a CRM assessment questionaire, non of which should be a problem to anyone who can speak english.............................the sim assessment is very easy and as long as you don't crash you are likely to pass the sim
trouble is after all that they tell you what they are offering by way of salary
at this point most people lose interest !!!!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: brussels
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you are sure ?????
Originally Posted by sizematters
$8000 US Dollars a month for Captains...................provided your type rated, less $1200 a month if not type rated so a non type rated Captain will bank $6,800 US Dollars, No loss of Licence, No medical insurance, no provident/ pension fund....................this is based on flying 50 hours a month (Flying hours not credit hours)
The way they explain the salary is this:
Base Salary is $5,500 a month but they GUARENTEE to pay you for 50 hour at $50/hour hence you will get $8000 as a CAPTAIN, but they expect you to fly 80 hours hence the additional 30 hours @ $50/hour to make it $9,500......................of course there is not a hope in Hell you'll fly 80 hours a month, you'll maybe do 50 as they will be busy training for at least two years
Days off.........Guarenteed 3 consecutive days a month, but 9 days off total, maybe 2 in Amsterdam, I in somewhere else and a couple of blocks of 2 or 3 in Shenzen......................
Per Diem...........$3 us dollars an hour............BUT............from the time you LAND at the destination till the time you LEAVE the destination, after all they are paying you $50/hour flight pay, why do you need any more???
This whole offer is a joke. they are getting some takers but all Non Type rated who are getting a very nice -400 course with British airways, and no doubt when they have a few hours under the belt they will just go work for someone who is prepared to pay a realistic salary.................
lots of excuse's about "you have to appreciate we are a start up, and things will gt better (yeah, right, please Mr.Tooth fairy) the guy who tells you about the salary scheme is so embarrasssed he can hardly look at you then mumbles about how, these scales are hard to decipher !!!
the bond is a joke though so if you want a type rating and 6 months being paid peanuts to then go elsewhere, come and take advantage of this very generous scheme..............you sign on and they deduct $1200 a month for 3 years end of story, so if you wait to pay day and leave they can chase you round a bit but I doubt they'll see any money back, even if you have to pay them the 1200 you can go work elsewhere and be considerably better off...........
Lots of very pleasant people at Jade, but the selection process is a joke and they will end up employing a lot of "bottom of the barrel" because no one who can do the job will work for this money................they actually passed some people on the sim ride who I personally wouldn't let loose on a push bike to the shops, let alone look after a shiny new -400..................still the first insurance claim is inevitable and that will obliterate the cost savings from the "Cheap" crews for the next 50 years...................
Final word, UNLESS YOUR DESPERATE, AND IN NEED OF A -400 RATING
FORGET IT !!!
The way they explain the salary is this:
Base Salary is $5,500 a month but they GUARENTEE to pay you for 50 hour at $50/hour hence you will get $8000 as a CAPTAIN, but they expect you to fly 80 hours hence the additional 30 hours @ $50/hour to make it $9,500......................of course there is not a hope in Hell you'll fly 80 hours a month, you'll maybe do 50 as they will be busy training for at least two years
Days off.........Guarenteed 3 consecutive days a month, but 9 days off total, maybe 2 in Amsterdam, I in somewhere else and a couple of blocks of 2 or 3 in Shenzen......................
Per Diem...........$3 us dollars an hour............BUT............from the time you LAND at the destination till the time you LEAVE the destination, after all they are paying you $50/hour flight pay, why do you need any more???
This whole offer is a joke. they are getting some takers but all Non Type rated who are getting a very nice -400 course with British airways, and no doubt when they have a few hours under the belt they will just go work for someone who is prepared to pay a realistic salary.................
lots of excuse's about "you have to appreciate we are a start up, and things will gt better (yeah, right, please Mr.Tooth fairy) the guy who tells you about the salary scheme is so embarrasssed he can hardly look at you then mumbles about how, these scales are hard to decipher !!!
the bond is a joke though so if you want a type rating and 6 months being paid peanuts to then go elsewhere, come and take advantage of this very generous scheme..............you sign on and they deduct $1200 a month for 3 years end of story, so if you wait to pay day and leave they can chase you round a bit but I doubt they'll see any money back, even if you have to pay them the 1200 you can go work elsewhere and be considerably better off...........
Lots of very pleasant people at Jade, but the selection process is a joke and they will end up employing a lot of "bottom of the barrel" because no one who can do the job will work for this money................they actually passed some people on the sim ride who I personally wouldn't let loose on a push bike to the shops, let alone look after a shiny new -400..................still the first insurance claim is inevitable and that will obliterate the cost savings from the "Cheap" crews for the next 50 years...................
Final word, UNLESS YOUR DESPERATE, AND IN NEED OF A -400 RATING
FORGET IT !!!
As a so called pro pilot (????) refrain from smearing durt on other people,are you such a hot pilot
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tellus
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by columbia747
As a so called pro pilot (????) refrain from smearing durt on other people,are you such a hot pilot
In these forums it is usually not difficult to find fiction that even George Lucas would have been proud to put his name on, but in this case the true story is actually worse than what was believed.
The truth is out there. Can you handle it??????
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you really a professionnal pilot ?
Originally Posted by columbia747
there are still pilots in the world that like their job and love to fly a beautiful b744,that has nothing to do with vaseline.By the way other people more down to earth have to pay for their travel aswell when they go for an interview..........so time to come out of your ivory tower and get in the real world where there is competition and people that make 1500 usd per month for a living
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by columbia747
there are still pilots in the world that like their job and love to fly a beautiful b744,that has nothing to do with vaseline.By the way other people more down to earth have to pay for their travel aswell when they go for an interview..........so time to come out of your ivory tower and get in the real world where there is competition and people that make 1500 usd per month for a living
Sure there's competition out there but this has nothing to do with that. As you get older and get more experience you will come to realise that there is more to life than having wide-body time in your logbook. In the end, it's just a job, so why sell yourself short?
Perhaps it's you that needs to get into the "real" world??
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually I think the poor chap is confused, or maybe his english is not very good, I think $1500 USD is a DAILY rate for freelance work.............................................either that or or he is a complete
Wayne Kerr....................................
Wayne Kerr....................................
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In someone pocket
Posts: 1,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jade Cargo interview
For the pilots who attended the Jade cargo recruitment interview, I search the topic no mention on the questions they ask at the interview.
I got a interview with them shortly, I am lucky that I am in asia. as I said no one mention the questions they ask at the interview. How about the sim ride (is it in the 777 as they mention or 737...747)??? what is the profile..
I looking for some new news about Jade..any about would helpful at this stage.
JJ696
I got a interview with them shortly, I am lucky that I am in asia. as I said no one mention the questions they ask at the interview. How about the sim ride (is it in the 777 as they mention or 737...747)??? what is the profile..
I looking for some new news about Jade..any about would helpful at this stage.
JJ696
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tellus
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yepp, that seems about right.
I saw their F/O "contract" recently.
Suddenly the word "slave" springs to mind.
It seems per diems are paid from arriving at outstation until leaving outstation. Contract is on 50 hours guarantee, only that is flying hours, not block as in the rest of the world. On long lay-overs 1 or 2 days will be counted as days off.
Not impressed.......
I saw their F/O "contract" recently.
Suddenly the word "slave" springs to mind.
It seems per diems are paid from arriving at outstation until leaving outstation. Contract is on 50 hours guarantee, only that is flying hours, not block as in the rest of the world. On long lay-overs 1 or 2 days will be counted as days off.
Not impressed.......
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a small summary: Forgett it quickly, an embaressement to people who work for money. The pay is a joke, the selection is not realistic and the medical is typical Far-East style. Donīt waste the time and look somewhere else until the rates are up to market value and the lesson is learned when they opreate the fleet with ghost-crews (keeps the fleet young at low hours)
Fly safe and land happy
NG
Fly safe and land happy
NG
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: brussels
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by hellofrance
If I understand you love to fly a beautifull B744 for 1500 USD, paying your travel, are you Cpt. ??
Yep ,you were still looking for milk and pampers ;while I was flying
Last edited by columbia747; 21st Jun 2006 at 06:54.