Yes, we should all stick to talking about flying business. Share and explore, rather than hammer down newbies.

My dear 114.05 friend, have I not addressed the issues? Perth may be a little quiet now, I understand.

My questions to er1cw may be direct and even pointed, but it is to save him the grief of throwing away around S$200,000. These days getting your own fATPL will get you absolutely nowhere near the FO's seat, if your heart is set on an airline job. Throw in a SSTR like an A320 or 737NG rating and maybe, just maybe someone will look at you. So he should budget at least $200,000, all in. But what are the chances even with that SSTR? Not good at all.

Wait until you've been around long enough (let's see, you have, what, not even 50 hours?) to see just how many Singaporean self-funded CPL holders have a flying job. And of those in flying jobs, how many are SIA FOs, not to mention airline FOs?

er1cw: If you have failed cadet selection the first time, and you still want to fly for SIA, there are other paths which are way more successful than doing your own CPL and then re-applying to SIA after that. From personal observation (even before SFC existed), there are probably MORE ex-stewards, station managers, and other SIA staff who became FOs, compared to those who did their own CPL (comparing direct-entry cadets vs non-direct-entry cadets). Your sole objective should be to get selected as an SIA cadet pilot, and not, oh, I've failed that part, so I should straightaway think of doing my own CPL. It doesn't work like that at all with SIA.

You should know that the very reason for having a cadet scheme is for the cultural aspect. The PROCESS of moulding this creature called the SIA pilot is much more valuable and important to SIA. They are not really bothered about the qualification side of the equation by flinging some ATPL chap in the right hand seat. They have had bitter experiences trying to shortcut the process by simply hiring fresh ATPL / CPL holders. They are unlikely to repeat their mistakes.

You could look at this way: if you are going to spend $200,000 anyway, what portion of that $200,000 would you risk, in order to protect yourself from spending the rest of it? Would you spend, say, $20,000 on improving your chances of getting selected as a cadet, and therefore save the remaining $180,000? So you could spend $20,000 to get your own PPL to demonstrate interest or passion, for example.

You could also join as a steward or ground staff, and network your way in the meantime. You would be earning a salary whilst getting yourself noticed (SIA has a flying club called the Seletar Flying Club). Who you know in SIA matters more than what qualifications you have, assuming you meet the minimum. All these are honourable ways of getting in, although not as speedy and direct as being accepted straightaway as a cadet pilot. But worth the effort. Who knows, whilst working in SIA you may find the culture so alien that you can't live with it. Would you rather be able to look into the rest of your working life with them and have a foretaste of what it is like, before, or after you have parted with $200,000?

And about SMS style writing - you may not know it, but such laziness creeps into your daily life to the point that you can't even see it (literally) when you send e-mails to your bosses (assuming you ever get in). SIA as an organisation has flattened because of e-mail. Cadets e-mail their Chief Pilots and vice versa. The down side is that cadets who write like this will be noticed (to their detriment) by their bosses. Continue this habit at your own peril.

echopapa: you are not even a cadet, just a wannabe repeat reject. So you know zilch about SIA culture. 'nuff said.

Leonard Bok: waiting long and hard for a retort, I see. Why block access to your blog? Ashamed of having written those nasty remarks about your boss? You think SIA will take you in now with your attitude, FAA PPL big deal that it is?

[QUOTE=Thermal Image]My dear 114.05 friend, have I not addressed the issues? Perth may be a little quiet now, I understand.


Hi there,

Thanks for your concern. So i heard about the lack of action in Perth but i'm sure things will get going soon.

Its great of you to offer advice to er1cw and those who are in similar situation, after all, sharing is the juice of pprune. However, we (collectively.. you guys with me?) would appreciate non-provocative communication.

In c114, there were a total of 7 that held local or oversea fATPL before joining SIA, and i'm glad mine has brought me rather near to smelling the right hand seat on a heavy. Not trying to prove anything here but the way you belittle others is a little difficult to swallow.

So i guess there are choices and there are choices. IMHO, sorting facts into pros and cons with regards to self-sponsored CPL/IR is somewhat personal. We should only offer what we know and let the receiving end decide.

[QUOTE=winglet_fever]My dear 114.05 friend,

My advice is provocative? That must be the sting of truth reverberating through your body. You want soothing, cooing gentle advice? Or do you want the brutal truth? Can you handle the truth?

You only have to look at your own coursemate for proof of how SIA extrapolates from snapshots of known behaviour, unfair or distorted as it may be, to build a picture of what each cadet and therefore (not very fairly) what the entire course is like.

Why was A chopped? Because of the 2 marks result? Or because he repeatedly had a bad record, both in his private life and at SFC, nothwithstanding that he had to set an example as course leader? It matters not that he is a nice guy and has other positive traits.

Your course also has the dubious honour of having had more than their share of discipline-related incidents, seemingly trivial to yourselves as a group, but a big deal to Mr P and Mr T, to the extent that Big M had to wade in. Yes, it may be a regular Mr P routine that he dishes out on every course, but call his bluff and you lose.

And so this is how senior folks in SIA think - you give them a reason to build a list of faults, they will. So, similarly, writing in SMS-speak irritates a whole generation of them, they form a negative opinion of you and it goes into your file. You don't even know that it has happened, so you can't correct it. Sure, it may not immediately result in termination, but every little negative impression chips away at their mental picture they have of you. Welcome to SIA's version of reality. Guilty by association.

BTW, the nice people at STC have already heard of the adventures of 114.05. It helps not that some of you guys are signing in on behalf of the absent rest who are not at STC doing LJ45 ground school like the the good boys that they ought to be. Looks like the greasing you guys got from Big M is all to no effect? Do we have an integrity problem here?

Echopapa + Winglet Fever, it's best to ignore his comments and carry on your own discussions.

Flames feed on fuel and the flamer is simply laying the bait for you to bite in order to draw you in.

TI might not be a nice guy, but granted, he does have experiences that most of us can learn from. TI makes a good point in that SIA prefers to breed its own kind of pilot versus getting someone who already has experience. It doesn't matter to SIA because they already provide all the training, so what it really seeks from a wannabe pilot is a clean slate.

It could be both good and bad. A similar analogy would be a company that fills its hierarchy with company men who have spent most of their careers there, versus another that is open to filling management positions with managers who have experience in other industries. Take for example, Delphi. Just before its filing of Chap 11 bankruptcy, the CEO was replaced by a gungho non-Delphi consultant who used Chap 11 protection to revamp the company. Another high profile example would be Carlos Ghosn of Nissan who first turned around Renault and then jumped into Nissan Japan and flipped all the hitherto conventions in Nissan Motors. They have their backers (mainly management folks whose only concern is the quarterly and annual profit) and detractors (mainly the workers who lost lost their jobs in the restructuring).

The big difference is that SIA would be investing a lot of money into each pilot, so it quite logically wants to make that choice of the kind of people it prefers in its organization.

The benefit of having experienced pilots join is you simply don't have to train them as much, but their work style is already established and there might be a chance of friction in the cockpit or even with the management. It would be extremely expensive to lose the investment in a pilot if the pilot were to grow his own WINGS (pun intended) and fly to another airline. Hence, it is more prudent of SIA to choose someone who is most likely to fit into SIA's culture, someone who is unlikely to abscond. Well, the bond also ensures that in case all else fails, but then, imagine the problems SIA would have with an unhappy pilot stuck for 7 years.

Thermal Image,

Thanks for your advice. I have an aviation background in my studies and i one day i would like to be a pilot too. I have yet to apply to SIA, but i will after the completion of my studies. Well, as for your concern. My parents are highly supportive for my ambition, so they will be happy to fund me if SIA turns me down. However, my parents arent rich and money aren't easy to earn. I will have to prepare for my last resort if the SIA's plan doesn't work out and i would not like my parents hard earn money go down into the drain if non of the flying course get me a flying job. I wouldnt mind to be a GA pilot, i believe piloting a Learjet or a Cessna will earn me respective experience in flying.

Regarding to my sms-style writing. Im new here and i have no idea how people can be so skeptical over my writing. Im sorry to say i know no fancy English as im a technically trained person, however i will definitely be more caution to type HERE if it can bring me to the flight deck.

By the way, thanks for the advice again.

It is good that you are planning ahead. This corner of PPRuNe is rich in advice and experience.

If your studies are not done, it means (if you are Singaporean) that you are not yet 26 and not eligible to be a cadet.

This is what several young chaps have done to bide their time: get at least a Second Upper (or equivalent), join SIA as an Admin Officer, work hard, network well, and when eligible, join the cadet pilot scheme.

Your ideas about being a GA pilot in lieu of being an airline pilot, after spending all that cash for a CPL IR, will bring mostly frustration. If it was your own money, then you can spend it any way you like. But it is not and you owe your parents that much to not sink their money into a silly venture.

Lear flying is done by ST Aerospace using ex-RSAF drivers, so no chance for outsiders. Executive jet operators here will not employ fresh CPL IR holders (historical fact). Instructing for YFC is also reserved for ex-RSAF drivers. Instructing for SFC, well, that's a revolving door for young pilots (starting pay less than $2000) who work a while and then join SinCargo. Other than that the remaining prospects are up in Malaysia. If you really like instructing, then do that. But if you see instructing as a mere consolation prize and not your true calling, then tough luck.

If you want to try GA work then you are also disadvantaged as a Singapore passport holder if you think you can work in the usual GA countries like Australia, UK, US or Canada.

The bottom line is - of all the self funded Singaporean CPL / ATPLers out there, fewer than half have flying jobs. It is as simple as that.

Just to add on to this point. From the accounts the instructors I know at the local airport, it is already tough finding a GA job in the US as a US citizen. All the instructors are CPL/IR, ME, CFI and CFII and still find it hard. My former instructor is quitting this week and returning to his crop dusting job in Utah after hanging around the flight school for the past 2 years waiting for a break and clocking time with students. I have only met 2 CFIs who are non-citizens (not sure if PR also), a Korean and a Taiwanese, who are instructing here to clock time and train, before they intend to return to their home countries to apply to their national carriers. Their plan seems to be to come to the US to clock flying time and instruct, then return home with a lot of experience and apply to the heavy jets.

That seems to be the best thing you can do if you come to the US for GA.

I am sure we all share the same interest, passion in aviation one way or the other, let just share experience here but not criticize individuals.

Being selected by major airliner as cadet pilot is a privilege and obviously the better and easier way to become a pilot. However let not forget lots of airline pilot are also from GA, and many GA pilots remain in GA to serve the community. Flying GA is equally challenging and we should respect all our fellow aviators.

Aviation training is an expensive exercise, you really have to do the homework right before spent the hard earned money. Getting the first job in aviation is not the easiest thing in the world, but there are lots of success stories out there. I personally know people did their own CPL and now FO on regional airlines. Although those are not renowned airlines like SQ, CX , BA, QF etc, but at least it’s a starting point and stepping stone.

If you really love flying, there are certainly more then one way to get yourself there. Some of them are harder then the other but nothing is impossible until you try. Set your goal correct, be passionate about your work is the key to success. Keep your dream alive and make it happen.
:cool:

hey guys,

i went for my first interview on the 23rd of april in kl and havent heard anything from SIA since...i'm curious, how long do they usually take to reply the results of the first interview for malaysians? and if anyone else went for their interview on that date, have u guys heard anything? i heard from some people that the longer they take to reply, the better your chances are...any truth in this? or mere hogwash? anyway guys, this forum is awesome...keep it goin...peace

hey bobmarley,

I too when for the 23rd interview at hotel nikko and I got my rejection letter yesterday. In your case, just be patient bro. If you don't get you letter, it might be that you in the KIV list. So whatever it is you have to be patient and use your time now to do more reading.

cheers.

muchos gracias senor graco...i'm sorry u din get in, give it another jab bro...with the benefit of hindsight, i'm sure u'll do better the second time around...and i hear a lot of ppl get in on their second attempt...go for it brother...peace

those who wish to fund flying beoming a GA pilot
 

hi guys,

my 2cents worth of story telling...

i am a self-funded pilot in SQ. i have classmates who are now flying with CX and other asia airline.
times are very different compare to my time, having a atpl/ir frozen would not likely get u a job with any major airline. being a singaporean, the best way to fly will be through the cadet pilot scheme. its the safest and most economical way to achieve individuals goals.

if u have what it thats, u will definately make it.
i was lucky that i did not waste my time on my ATPL which i got in massey, but heard that for recent years, SQ is very strict on the selction of fresh newbie pilots... till now i have only met 2 2nd officers who are self-fund like me, the worst thing is that they have an AUS CPL and CAAS do not recognize it, in the end they sort of 'recoruse' and went through the whole cadet pilot pharse.

for those who want to self-fund, really think carefully before making the move.

if i can do it, so can anybody... good luck

cheers
a great way to fly
singapore airlines.

Hi all,

Are the new cadets starting as a short haul pilot or as long haul pilot these days? What type of aircrafts do they most likely to fly with at the beginning? Many thanks! :)

The comments from you are encouraging to hear, because I am another wannabe! :D

I am a steward, and I love flying. Whether it is in the cabin or in the cockpit during takeoff or landing, the experience is just simply wonderful (Even though I have been flying for a few years, I still enjoy it.). Thermal Image is right about the networking. SIA is such a big company with more than 20,000 employees. Who you know is very important!

To addon to Thermal Image about Culture. Culture in SIA is very different from the "outside" world. Is either you like it or you hate it. From my personal experience from Cabin crew, there are many who left because of the culture. Till today, i am still adjusting myself to the culture.

Cheers.

I met 2 cadet pilots (now are SO i guess!), one of them is flying the B777 and another one ended up in SIA cargo. It is all depend on the company's decision/cadet's performance.. hard to tell what type of aircraft one will fly after completed the cadet training.

It ONLY depends on the company's requirements at that stage. If they project that they'll need 777 pilots, you'll fly the 777, which is more than likely in the main fleet as it's SIA's workhorse. Nothing to do with a cadet's performance. And whether you're with SIA, cargo or silkair is also decided even before training starts, altho the contract would have a clause that you might have to be shuffled around according to the company's needs.

Actually fleet postings for second officers are driven mostly by fleet demand, and to a smaller extent, cadet performance.

Sometimes fleet conversion slots for say, the 747 and 777 are closely timed, by coincidence (or cock-up). If a cohort of cadets then needs to be split up into different fleets, this is when each cadet's performance is ranked, and the more deserving cadets get the higher paying fleet.

In the past the difference between first year salaries of FOs on, say the A310 and the B747-400 was as much as $25,000 a year because of nightstop allowances and fleet pay differences. So there had to be a "fair" method to decide which cadet went to which fleet (if the conversion courses were closely timed), meaning based on merit or performance. Not too many cadets had the chance to play golf with their bosses, so the golf-buddy network couldn't really be used.

Ah yes..... I was only thinking in more general terms, and not when courses are closely timed e.g. they wouldn't hold a cadet back just to put him into the 345s just because he did better (or worse, depending on how you look at it. haha). Good stuff.

Hey all :cool: first time here- excellent! Also went for first stage at Nikko on 23rd April still no news.. All the best bros!!

Jett,

I went for mine on the 22nd. No news yet but my friends got their email and will go in batches on the 16th and 23rd May respectively. Hope ours is on the 30th. PMed you, please check. Thanks.

anyone care to enlighten me the current org chart of flight ops???
i remember its no longer Capt M rite???

Can anyone give me any information on the EXPRESS cadet pilot scheme at SIA Cargo.

I was refused for the DEFO but they said I meet the requirements for the EXPRESS cadet pilot scheme.

Anyone got any info or been through this selection.

Thanks

EXPRESS cadet pilot scheme
 

I've not heard of such a scheme before. My guess is that you have a CPL/IR, and your hours are recognised by CAAS. If this is the case, you just need to do the ATPL papers. You can pay for the exams yourself, do it privately at your free time or you can spend six months doing the ATPL groundschool at SFC as part of the cadet program. With the fATPL, you can go straight to the Learjet and shorten the training by about 10 months. What I mentioned is basically the same SIA cadet pilot program that everyone is talking about here. I'm merely saying how you might be able to get exemptions and reduce training time. Maybe this is the 'express cadet scheme' that you were told?

Having said this, you have to pass all the interviews and tests like all the other guys here for any of the above mentioned to be applicable. Other requirements for this cadet program will be a minimum of Singapore PR status (though they seem to be taking in foreigners as cadets now), education qualifications etc. These have been mentioned earlier in this thread. Hope it helps.

9V

Hi all,

Thank you for the answers regarding fleet to start up with as a new SIA cadet.

Can someone try to explain or point me to a link that will explain more details on SIA bond? Also what is the current salary for new cadet and what is the cost to rent a reasonable accomodation there in Singapore? Thanks in advance.

Interviews on 18th and 19th May 2006
 

Those who attended their 1st interview on the 18th and 19th of May and were subsequently rejected were sent their emails this afternoon. If you haven't received any email by now, chances are that you are through to the next round.

If you have been rejected, and are keen to find out what went wrong, or what you can do to improve the next time around, drop me a PM and I may be able to help answer your questions. No promises tho.

Hi, i went for my first round on May 19, didnt receive anything yet but i got a sms from another guy who went on the same day have already got a reply from SQ today to attend 2nd round on 30/31 may.......

do you have any idea whats my chances for 2nd round???

Just be patient and wait for SIA's notification.

thanks bro, guess i just have to be patient and be prepared in the meantime.... thanks again:O

i have been following this thread n looks like its been inactive for over a month... what happen guys???? did SIA stopped taking ppl or there arent there much happening goin on in there... plz keep this thread alive for those wannabes like me to get up to date information abt the cadet programs....

SIA is still taking in people.

Is that enough up to date information for you?

There is another forum you can "check it out" http://askcaptainlim.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=1

Hi guys... sorry if my question sound out of place but I'd like to know since the requirements for cadet pilots are for us to have 5 'O' lvl credits, is it a neccessity to have all 5? or is that rule flexible? Anyone without 5 credits got in?

It has been a while since the last post. Anyone interested to post their progress here?

Dear mike79,

Yes. It is a must to have at least 5 'O' level credits in one sittings. When you submit your application form, that's the first criteria of academic they are looking at. Someone had raised this question before:"What if the person has a degree, but 5 'O' level credits in 2 sittings?"... They still take in consideration of the 'O' first....

sorry to pour cold water. but if u dun have 5 'O's in one sitting with English Maths and Science.... dun pin any high hopes.

I got 7 credits for my 'O's, but I took only combined science as that was the only one offered in my school. Does that affect my chances too?