Joint CRM
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Ah ! Thanks maxy101. 
In the outfit I work for the comments range from snide under-the-breath to in-your-face aggressive. Not BA, therefore. Just typical modern youth behaviour. CRM training not working here, methinks !
Reports of such behaviour are most likely to result in one being branded a moaner, a trouble maker or unsuitable for the position.
This was the basis for my "anti-CRM" post earlier - the CRM message simply is'nt getting through. The training, as currently presented is an ineffective joke in my experience.
Henry Ford -- "History is bunk, as taught in schools !"
Anthony Carn -- "CRM is bunk, as taught in my experience !"
I have a vision of readers of this lot to be striken with horror - someone who dares to criticise this great new, trendy thing called CRM !
I'd better stop here - I seem to be responding to my own posts to some extent.
In the outfit I work for the comments range from snide under-the-breath to in-your-face aggressive. Not BA, therefore. Just typical modern youth behaviour. CRM training not working here, methinks !
Reports of such behaviour are most likely to result in one being branded a moaner, a trouble maker or unsuitable for the position.
This was the basis for my "anti-CRM" post earlier - the CRM message simply is'nt getting through. The training, as currently presented is an ineffective joke in my experience.
Henry Ford -- "History is bunk, as taught in schools !"
Anthony Carn -- "CRM is bunk, as taught in my experience !"
I have a vision of readers of this lot to be striken with horror - someone who dares to criticise this great new, trendy thing called CRM !
I'd better stop here - I seem to be responding to my own posts to some extent.
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CArn, you're not respomding to your own posts; at least I am reading them. 
And wondering if there is a solution to the situation at your airline regarding the behaviour of your CC as percieved by you.
When I say that "everybody is educationable", I mean that all these boys and girl started out applying for the job of flight attendant because they were really keen. Competition is fierce for that job; a quick read of the Cabin Crew forum makes that very clear.
So you start of with young people dead keen to work as CC. Who have demonstrated a goodly amount of social skills, otherwise they would not have been hired. Most of them have a sunny disposition and a real likeing for people.
When they start on the line, at least IMHO, they work very hard and are always eager to please the passengers, the Purser and the Pilots.
They are NOT out to become surly cows and aggressive b@stards from the word go, and that's for sure.
So what happens Carn? What turns these folks from hard working eager puppies into snide and or aggressive louts?
Finding the anser to that might help solve the problem.
Implying that there is just something wrong with them seems too easy.
Again in my oh so very humble opinion, since we do work for a different kind of outfit.
And wondering if there is a solution to the situation at your airline regarding the behaviour of your CC as percieved by you.
When I say that "everybody is educationable", I mean that all these boys and girl started out applying for the job of flight attendant because they were really keen. Competition is fierce for that job; a quick read of the Cabin Crew forum makes that very clear.
So you start of with young people dead keen to work as CC. Who have demonstrated a goodly amount of social skills, otherwise they would not have been hired. Most of them have a sunny disposition and a real likeing for people.
When they start on the line, at least IMHO, they work very hard and are always eager to please the passengers, the Purser and the Pilots.
They are NOT out to become surly cows and aggressive b@stards from the word go, and that's for sure.
So what happens Carn? What turns these folks from hard working eager puppies into snide and or aggressive louts?
Finding the anser to that might help solve the problem.
Implying that there is just something wrong with them seems too easy.
Again in my oh so very humble opinion, since we do work for a different kind of outfit.
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...........we do work for a different kind of outfit.
You're possibly assuming, since it seems obvious in a decent outfit, that recruitment is competently executed. This is one of THE main targets of my criticism.
You're possibly assuming, since it seems obvious in a decent outfit, that CRM training is competently executed. This is another big problem area. "Token gesture"/overly theoretical/minimalist/just plain bad CRM training is a joke.
You're assuming that the treatment of staff is decent and civilised.
You're assuing that all of the many other elements which make for "happy bunnies" in the workforce are in place.
Therein lie all of the answers you're looking for - recruit good people, give them good CRM training which highlights the importance of working well together, treat them properly and add many other factors (no doubt) and it'll probably work much better than at present.
(Hey, and call me Anthony.........it's good for CRM !)
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Some excellent points there by both Anthony and Flaps. Both highlight the fact that everyone has an input to Flight Safety.
Everything in aviation has a direct effect upon safety.
To highlight Anthony's points, I know of one organisation where the CEO's only demand when they wanted to recruit more cabin crew was that they be blond and big-busted. He cared not a jot about previous experience (one ex-BA girl, flying for 10 years, was edged out because she highlighted various safety concerns).
You simply cannot take a school-leaver, point out the first-aid kit and the extinguisher, and let them fly the line on day 2.
Yes, you may get away with it. People do, every day. But you cannot be in total control of every other aspect of the flight. And sooner or later, something is going to go ping and people are not going to be able to cope. Eroded safety margins will tell and, in an incident which previously might have claimed merely a few shattered nerves, an accident will develop which claims the lives of all on board.
Those of us who put our lives on the line need to dig our heels in and stop those that don't, and don't understand or accept the inherent dangers, from further endangering us, our colleagues, our families' futures, our aircraft and passengers.
As it says - "Flying in itself is not inherently dangerous. But, to an even greater extent than the sea, it is very unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
Everything in aviation has a direct effect upon safety.
To highlight Anthony's points, I know of one organisation where the CEO's only demand when they wanted to recruit more cabin crew was that they be blond and big-busted. He cared not a jot about previous experience (one ex-BA girl, flying for 10 years, was edged out because she highlighted various safety concerns).
You simply cannot take a school-leaver, point out the first-aid kit and the extinguisher, and let them fly the line on day 2.
Yes, you may get away with it. People do, every day. But you cannot be in total control of every other aspect of the flight. And sooner or later, something is going to go ping and people are not going to be able to cope. Eroded safety margins will tell and, in an incident which previously might have claimed merely a few shattered nerves, an accident will develop which claims the lives of all on board.
Those of us who put our lives on the line need to dig our heels in and stop those that don't, and don't understand or accept the inherent dangers, from further endangering us, our colleagues, our families' futures, our aircraft and passengers.
As it says - "Flying in itself is not inherently dangerous. But, to an even greater extent than the sea, it is very unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
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Hmmm a few interesting points here been raised here.
If you choose not to involve CC in the CRM loop (if they want to be there or not) you have to admit your mad! They are your eyes and ears at all the other parts of the aircraft when your in the cockpit.
Tarring all CC with he same brush, or all CC from one company with the same brush for that matter does not help issues either. The facts of the matter are that some do have the wrong attitude, and this is true in EVERY company. Some more so than others. If you choose to throw your hands up and give up on those individuals and fight fire with fire, then nothing will get resolved and only make matters worse. Surely it's better to keep trying and get through to these people and hopefully get through to them even a small bit, the result being a small impovement is better than none...but never the less...a small improvement!
There is a similar phenomenon in the CC community as well you may be suprised to hear.
Some girls tar all pilots with the same brush as well! They believe they are all beer drinking, womanising, self centred, lying, cheating, arseholes, who only care about money and will do anything to get another woman to sleep with them behind their wifes back (all totally wrong of course!!!).
But....low and behold some girlies choose to not to believe the hype and date a pilot. SOME even MARRY THEM!!!
I think this would be more of a dating site if this particular urban myth were thought to be true across the board and nobody actually tried to find out the real truth and educate the masses.
Something to think about for all you non supporters of involving CC in CRM.
That one day course or that extra few minutes trying to make an effort might not get you just frequent hot coffee's - it might just get you a date...or more. It might even save your life.....
Surely a good case for CRM!
If you choose not to involve CC in the CRM loop (if they want to be there or not) you have to admit your mad! They are your eyes and ears at all the other parts of the aircraft when your in the cockpit.
Tarring all CC with he same brush, or all CC from one company with the same brush for that matter does not help issues either. The facts of the matter are that some do have the wrong attitude, and this is true in EVERY company. Some more so than others. If you choose to throw your hands up and give up on those individuals and fight fire with fire, then nothing will get resolved and only make matters worse. Surely it's better to keep trying and get through to these people and hopefully get through to them even a small bit, the result being a small impovement is better than none...but never the less...a small improvement!
There is a similar phenomenon in the CC community as well you may be suprised to hear.
Some girls tar all pilots with the same brush as well! They believe they are all beer drinking, womanising, self centred, lying, cheating, arseholes, who only care about money and will do anything to get another woman to sleep with them behind their wifes back (all totally wrong of course!!!).
But....low and behold some girlies choose to not to believe the hype and date a pilot. SOME even MARRY THEM!!!
I think this would be more of a dating site if this particular urban myth were thought to be true across the board and nobody actually tried to find out the real truth and educate the masses.
Something to think about for all you non supporters of involving CC in CRM.
That one day course or that extra few minutes trying to make an effort might not get you just frequent hot coffee's - it might just get you a date...or more. It might even save your life.....
Surely a good case for CRM!
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interesting how this post went from a discussion of pilots and mechanics to flight attendant bashing..........
clealry there is a need for better cockpit crew/cabin crew interaction, and need for crm.
Do I judge from the lack of posts regarding pilots and mechanics that everyone thinks things are peachy there??
Just wondering.
clealry there is a need for better cockpit crew/cabin crew interaction, and need for crm.
Do I judge from the lack of posts regarding pilots and mechanics that everyone thinks things are peachy there??
Just wondering.
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Certainly on the -400 in BA Iīd say the relationship is pretty good. Neither they or us want to go unless itīs safe to do so.
Whether stuff gets fixed is a different matter. Generally if itīs allowable then it gets deferred. Engineering has taken its share of cuts and job losses and sometimes it shows out on the line.
Sometimes disagreements occur, i.e not fixing an APU before departing to MEX. As the operating crew, we knew it would cause big delays and payload problems out of MEX on the return, however the engineers were only concerned with avoiding any departure delays being put down to them. Engineers parting words out of the door were " The delay is not down to us is it?"
Perhaps these guys are being pushed too far?
Whether stuff gets fixed is a different matter. Generally if itīs allowable then it gets deferred. Engineering has taken its share of cuts and job losses and sometimes it shows out on the line.
Sometimes disagreements occur, i.e not fixing an APU before departing to MEX. As the operating crew, we knew it would cause big delays and payload problems out of MEX on the return, however the engineers were only concerned with avoiding any departure delays being put down to them. Engineers parting words out of the door were " The delay is not down to us is it?"
Perhaps these guys are being pushed too far?
