My Captain is on speed!
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 293
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From: UK
My Captain is on speed!
Not literally of course
I have just finished a 2 day trip with a really nice chap who I got on well with on a personal level. However his attitude to, let's say 'commercial operations' seemed a little too frantic.
When it was his turn to set up the wizzadry, he would remove all speed control constraints for the entire trip, leaving me to find that he had done this when I came to check the flight plan. Subsequently all approaches were flown on the barbers pole. I was a 'wuss' if I slowed down early etc. Anyway, needless to say as I didn't always have the same mental picture as him some of my approaches ended up with me being down too early (as ATC took us further than expected) and others with it all being a bit of a rush - gear used early etc.
Now I don't believe anything was dangerous as the weather generally was fine, but it did make me a little uneasy. I am quite a laid back sort of bloke (I think) and so my way of dealing with this was to joke with him that we were doing another 'Schumacher approach' etc. He still didn't change his ways though.
I am a little concerned that someone with a little less experience who flies with him is going to certainly have his confidence dented by this chap or end up practising several go-arounds.
Maybe I should have told him straight, rather than making a big joke of it. Other people must have had this experience in the past, how did you deal with it?
I have just finished a 2 day trip with a really nice chap who I got on well with on a personal level. However his attitude to, let's say 'commercial operations' seemed a little too frantic.
When it was his turn to set up the wizzadry, he would remove all speed control constraints for the entire trip, leaving me to find that he had done this when I came to check the flight plan. Subsequently all approaches were flown on the barbers pole. I was a 'wuss' if I slowed down early etc. Anyway, needless to say as I didn't always have the same mental picture as him some of my approaches ended up with me being down too early (as ATC took us further than expected) and others with it all being a bit of a rush - gear used early etc.
Now I don't believe anything was dangerous as the weather generally was fine, but it did make me a little uneasy. I am quite a laid back sort of bloke (I think) and so my way of dealing with this was to joke with him that we were doing another 'Schumacher approach' etc. He still didn't change his ways though.
I am a little concerned that someone with a little less experience who flies with him is going to certainly have his confidence dented by this chap or end up practising several go-arounds.
Maybe I should have told him straight, rather than making a big joke of it. Other people must have had this experience in the past, how did you deal with it?
PPRuNeaholic
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,255
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From: Cairns FNQ
I flew with a bloke like that at one time. Did quite a lot of flying with him as it turned out. It all started from the first time I flew with him and he was doing the first sector. I was a bit alarmed by that first high speed visual approach so, when it was turn to have a go, I stuck to the SOPs and, yes, he said I was being "wussy", or some such thing.
Anyway, rather than getting upset, I asked him to teach me how to do it and get it right every time. He did. And I did. I never used that sort of approach in anything but visual approach type weather and certainly not with other skippers.
However, there was one time when, on my sector, ATC had asked me to keep the speed up during approach, for sequencing purposes. That's when I found the real value of the technique. I took the precaution of briefing the skipper on my intentions for the approach, so that he was in the loop.
He was just happy that he didn't have to take over, to ensure that we didn't lose our place in the approach queue! So I guess the short answer is to try to learn as much as you can from the bloke - never know when it'll be useful. Just be sure to brief the skipper on your intentions before you start!
Anyway, rather than getting upset, I asked him to teach me how to do it and get it right every time. He did. And I did. I never used that sort of approach in anything but visual approach type weather and certainly not with other skippers.
However, there was one time when, on my sector, ATC had asked me to keep the speed up during approach, for sequencing purposes. That's when I found the real value of the technique. I took the precaution of briefing the skipper on my intentions for the approach, so that he was in the loop.
He was just happy that he didn't have to take over, to ensure that we didn't lose our place in the approach queue! So I guess the short answer is to try to learn as much as you can from the bloke - never know when it'll be useful. Just be sure to brief the skipper on your intentions before you start!
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 811
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From: The Heart
Stay within your own limits.
Does he stray outside the SOP?
Work out how many seconds difference there are between the two techniques.
I'd rather be a wuss than have to make a missed approach 'cos I couldn't slow down quick enough. That line usually shuts them up.
Does he stray outside the SOP?
Work out how many seconds difference there are between the two techniques.
I'd rather be a wuss than have to make a missed approach 'cos I couldn't slow down quick enough. That line usually shuts them up.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Operating in high speed mode is something best learnt when the situation is ideal - CAVOK, not much traffic, ATC don't mind etc etc. It does require practise, in order to then be consistent in more difficult situations. I think that it then remains as another string in your bow should the situation arise.
As an example, you're kept high by ATC. You can use high speed to lose excess height when cleared down. You can then get in a mess if you're not practised, or it can be easy if you're practised.
The benefits of it's use in everyday operations (short haul) are difficult to quantify in cost versus time-saving terms - swings and roundabouts. The time saving on it's own is usually not worth the effort. If your Company SOP says high speed is non-standard, then there's your answer for everyday ops. and it's also your answer for any colleague who regularly ignores it.
As an example, you're kept high by ATC. You can use high speed to lose excess height when cleared down. You can then get in a mess if you're not practised, or it can be easy if you're practised.
The benefits of it's use in everyday operations (short haul) are difficult to quantify in cost versus time-saving terms - swings and roundabouts. The time saving on it's own is usually not worth the effort. If your Company SOP says high speed is non-standard, then there's your answer for everyday ops. and it's also your answer for any colleague who regularly ignores it.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 34
From: London,England
Had a few barbers pole boys in our company over the years, always in a rush, never happy with the level or the route, on at ATC all the time, you know the sort. I don't think it's a coincidence that quite a few of them came unstuck, lining up in front of other an aircraft doing a low vis. approach, landing without clearance etc. Personally I can't get too excited about getting there 2 minutes earlier, drop shoulders a bit and go with the flow.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 870
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From: UK
Wasn't there a crash into a mountain in the Canaries by a Brit crew flying a rushed approach back in the 70's? Seem to recall seeing the video reconstruction during MCC. In fairness, the weather certainly wasn't CAVOK and there was some difficulty with non-standard ATC instructions, but a good example of what can happen when the crew fall behind the aircraft (and this was a 3 man crew).
Do as the Cadbury Caramel bunny says and take it easy.
Do as the Cadbury Caramel bunny says and take it easy.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Perhaps the el capitan should 'clam up"...(line training excepted)
Never have really understood why some Commanders are constantly chiding the First Officer about their technique.
All the company requires is for them to operate the aeroplane according to standard procedures.
It ain't rocket science.
IF the F/O is not happy with high speed descents (below FL100), leave 'em alone to operate as necessary. After all, they are the PF, are they not?
How will they ever learn if constantly 'corrected'?
All the company requires is for them to operate the aeroplane according to standard procedures.
It ain't rocket science.
IF the F/O is not happy with high speed descents (below FL100), leave 'em alone to operate as necessary. After all, they are the PF, are they not?
How will they ever learn if constantly 'corrected'?
Last edited by 411A; 20th May 2003 at 09:56.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 539
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From: Kandahar Afghanistan
Sean,
There are times when we need you to keep your speed up on the approach (210 till the marker) because of faster traffic behind or we are trying to close up a gap or create a gap so that we can slide someone else behind you.
The key is if you can't do the speed "PLEASE" tell us and we will make adjustments.
As for this Captain, if he is trying to teach good procedure for flying a fast approach that is one thing, but if he is one of those pilots that only knows one speed and everyone else be damned, well, he may be on his way to becomming a statistic, and the bad thing about future statistic makers is that they usually take others with them.
When I as a controller encounter captains that only know one speed (FAST), the first time I may let it ride, the second time I may yank you out of the sequence and make you last and/or a supervisor may have a chat with the company chief pilot.
Mike
NATCA FWA
There are times when we need you to keep your speed up on the approach (210 till the marker) because of faster traffic behind or we are trying to close up a gap or create a gap so that we can slide someone else behind you.
The key is if you can't do the speed "PLEASE" tell us and we will make adjustments.
As for this Captain, if he is trying to teach good procedure for flying a fast approach that is one thing, but if he is one of those pilots that only knows one speed and everyone else be damned, well, he may be on his way to becomming a statistic, and the bad thing about future statistic makers is that they usually take others with them.
When I as a controller encounter captains that only know one speed (FAST), the first time I may let it ride, the second time I may yank you out of the sequence and make you last and/or a supervisor may have a chat with the company chief pilot.
Mike
NATCA FWA
