Captains interfering with the FO's flying
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Captains interfering with the FO's flying
Some captains I fly with has the bad habit of telling you how to fly when it is your leg to fly or even worse interferes with your flying. Most of these captains, when it is their leg to fly does not fly so well themselves. I am not talking about training captains teaching a new FO on line. This is captains who does it from habit, regardless of how the FO fly or how experienced the FO is.
I am a First Officer who find this extremely annoying! Are there any other FOs out there who feel the same way and how do you deal with it? What do you do to enjoy the day's flying when you unfortunately get rostered with such a captain?
Any advise welcome or similar experiences welcome.
Barrelroll
I am a First Officer who find this extremely annoying! Are there any other FOs out there who feel the same way and how do you deal with it? What do you do to enjoy the day's flying when you unfortunately get rostered with such a captain?
Any advise welcome or similar experiences welcome.
Barrelroll
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Any chance you might ask them if it's alright to practice your P1 skills by acting like the commander of the A/C, and the captain not interfering unless absolutely necessary, instead giving you a thorough debrief after the flight? It seems to work in our company..
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Barrelroll,
If this is a constand habit and politely saying something doesn't help, then have a talk with your chief pilot. This problem occurs between controllers too, because some individuals perceive themselves as super controllers, or in your case the captains perceive themselves as SUPER PILOT.
Some Captains who do this think that they are just being helpful or providing instruction, so they don't realize that they may be actually interfering. Discuss how your leg of the flight is going to be run prior to pulling away from the gate, then if during the flight the Captain continues to interfere, ask him if you are doing something wrong that you are not aware of, then work from there.
Mike
If this is a constand habit and politely saying something doesn't help, then have a talk with your chief pilot. This problem occurs between controllers too, because some individuals perceive themselves as super controllers, or in your case the captains perceive themselves as SUPER PILOT.
Some Captains who do this think that they are just being helpful or providing instruction, so they don't realize that they may be actually interfering. Discuss how your leg of the flight is going to be run prior to pulling away from the gate, then if during the flight the Captain continues to interfere, ask him if you are doing something wrong that you are not aware of, then work from there.
Mike
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As a training/check and line Captain, here is my perspective...
On flights that are not training (ie, most line flights), I do not in any way interfere with the First Officer when he is the PF, and generally the operation goes very smoothly. However, there can be occasions when the Captain sees a situation developing, of which the F/O is not aware, and in these cases the Captain has a responsibility to speak up....diplomatically is the preferred method, otherwise the comments can be construed as "interferring", and sometimes are not well received.
First Officers must remember however that the Captain is assigned to the flight as the Commander (ie, ultimate responsibility) and the company/regulatory authorities will hold him liable in the event of an incident.
On flights that are not training (ie, most line flights), I do not in any way interfere with the First Officer when he is the PF, and generally the operation goes very smoothly. However, there can be occasions when the Captain sees a situation developing, of which the F/O is not aware, and in these cases the Captain has a responsibility to speak up....diplomatically is the preferred method, otherwise the comments can be construed as "interferring", and sometimes are not well received.
First Officers must remember however that the Captain is assigned to the flight as the Commander (ie, ultimate responsibility) and the company/regulatory authorities will hold him liable in the event of an incident.
Quite agree with 411a, when I first got my command one of my biggest worries was that I had little experience in supervising and monitoring someone elses flying which in effect is what you are doing when you are PNF and the Captain. It turned out to not really be a problem as the huge majority of FOs in the company are very able and very easy to work with.
As an FO I used to dislike skippers who would give you the leg and then spend the whole time telling you what to do. I used to think "well why don't you fly it and I will do the radio". I make a real effort not to picky about the other guys operation and when I do need to say something to do it as diplomatically as possible. I also realise that it is much harder for the FO to say something to me and try to foster the sort of flightdeck atmosphere where they find it easy to do so. I think you will find that the majority of guys who hassle and interfere with FO's are little under confident of thier own abilities and as you said are not that special themselves, it's just thier way of coping with it.
BUT, at the end of the day the guy in the left seat is in charge and the guy in the right seat is not and there are times when you just have to bite your lip and get on with it despite what your feelings are. A saying I often hear at work is "if everyone was the same it would be boring", unless things are getting unsafe I would just let it wash over you, the next day you will probably fly with someone else anyway.
Eventually you will be in a position to set the tone for the day and it's very nice to be able to do that, you may find however that from the left seat things are not quite as black and white as they sometimes appear from the right.
As an FO I used to dislike skippers who would give you the leg and then spend the whole time telling you what to do. I used to think "well why don't you fly it and I will do the radio". I make a real effort not to picky about the other guys operation and when I do need to say something to do it as diplomatically as possible. I also realise that it is much harder for the FO to say something to me and try to foster the sort of flightdeck atmosphere where they find it easy to do so. I think you will find that the majority of guys who hassle and interfere with FO's are little under confident of thier own abilities and as you said are not that special themselves, it's just thier way of coping with it.
BUT, at the end of the day the guy in the left seat is in charge and the guy in the right seat is not and there are times when you just have to bite your lip and get on with it despite what your feelings are. A saying I often hear at work is "if everyone was the same it would be boring", unless things are getting unsafe I would just let it wash over you, the next day you will probably fly with someone else anyway.
Eventually you will be in a position to set the tone for the day and it's very nice to be able to do that, you may find however that from the left seat things are not quite as black and white as they sometimes appear from the right.
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I don't think there are many F/O's out there who don't understand that the Captain has ultimate responsibility and must jump in when something is happening that the F/O (PF) is not dealing with. I think that is a different case to what Barrelroll is describing. I have flown with two such characters, one immesurably worse than the other. Everyone knows who he is within said airline, including the pilot management but they do nothing about him. It has even got to the point that dozens, and I mean dozens of F/O's have refused to fly with him. He insists the aircraft is flown 'his way' and if you make a selection that is not 'his way' he will jump in and correct it by making selections for you. He is in my opinion arrogant, blinkered, over confident (no brief and no navaids set up despite my repeated requests during descent) and dangerous (he insists on keeping VNAV in virtually to glide capture and so keeps updating the FMC, head down, in the busy TMA whilst you are trying to fly the thing. In the end you call up the fix page and work your descent out on that as the map keeps disappearing as he constructs more and more waypoints as the controller gives you another vector.) His flying is nothing to be proud of (300kts downwind on a visual approach at night with a 30kt tailwind at circuit altitude) and everytime you say anything on the RT, make an MCP selection, fill in the Ops Return, make a comment about a news article, mention that the No.1 is a nice girl.......you are wrong. Period. Only two ways to handle him.
1. Say nothing and sit there and fume, then refuse to fly with him, or,
2. Confront his bullying attitude and make him aware you are not willing to accept it, which has worked for most. You are still wrong, but he is less overbearing whilst you are flying.
What should be done? He should not be commanding an aircraft in my opinion........let alone training people in them!
PP
1. Say nothing and sit there and fume, then refuse to fly with him, or,
2. Confront his bullying attitude and make him aware you are not willing to accept it, which has worked for most. You are still wrong, but he is less overbearing whilst you are flying.
What should be done? He should not be commanding an aircraft in my opinion........let alone training people in them!
PP
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Barrelroll
From the above posts, you will be able to gather that, hopefully, pain in the arse captains are very much in the minority?
If you are flying as directed by your company SOPs then, in the perfect world, there should be no reason for any interference. Unfortunately you will, throughout your career, come across individuals who want to place their own interpretation on SOPs and one has to hope that such people are very few and far between.
If there are legitimate short cuts that can safely be taken then the captain can offer these as a suggestion to you but should, provided you remain within the bounds of a safe operation, let you do your own thing.
What you are experiencing is much the same as most of us have experienced at some time in the past and the advice given in the above posts, ranging from 'grin and bear it' because tomorrow should be better through to speaking to your CP is all valid. Ideally the path with the least confrontation is the way to go but as a professional pilot you naturally want to fly safely so, in each case, you must make your choice.
Look forward to the day you become a captain!
BlueEagle - Moderator.
If you are flying as directed by your company SOPs then, in the perfect world, there should be no reason for any interference. Unfortunately you will, throughout your career, come across individuals who want to place their own interpretation on SOPs and one has to hope that such people are very few and far between.
If there are legitimate short cuts that can safely be taken then the captain can offer these as a suggestion to you but should, provided you remain within the bounds of a safe operation, let you do your own thing.
What you are experiencing is much the same as most of us have experienced at some time in the past and the advice given in the above posts, ranging from 'grin and bear it' because tomorrow should be better through to speaking to your CP is all valid. Ideally the path with the least confrontation is the way to go but as a professional pilot you naturally want to fly safely so, in each case, you must make your choice.
Look forward to the day you become a captain!
BlueEagle - Moderator.
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Thanks for the replies,
To those captains posting their views, I fully appreciate the responsability of being in command of the flight having been a Training Captain on a smaller type in a different airline myself. My goal was the following: when I flew as a training captain training a new FO or Captain on line I tried to impart as much knowledge as possible, even to the point of overkill, no interference with the flying though, unless very necessary. But when the line training was complete, the emphasize shifts to captain, FO, building a coherent team and an atmosphere that will enhance synergy and teamwork on the flightdeck, since having been an FO before I knew what negative effect an overbearing and interfereing captain has on CRM and teamwork and therefore the overall safety of the flight.
To those who suggest that I refuse to fly with certain pilots and/or report the culprits to the chief pilot I am unfortunately in the following situaion: (1) The chief pilot is one of the culprits, (2) the company I fly for are not very structured and if any FO refuse to fly with any captain it will be severely looked upon and will most likely prevent future promotion, (3) any FOs promotion depends on one person, namely the chief pilot mentioned in (1), (4) in this company (by now I am wondering myself what on earth am I doing in this company!?) bad habit power trip captains make out about half of the captains I fly with.
Any advise for that?
Barrelroll
To those captains posting their views, I fully appreciate the responsability of being in command of the flight having been a Training Captain on a smaller type in a different airline myself. My goal was the following: when I flew as a training captain training a new FO or Captain on line I tried to impart as much knowledge as possible, even to the point of overkill, no interference with the flying though, unless very necessary. But when the line training was complete, the emphasize shifts to captain, FO, building a coherent team and an atmosphere that will enhance synergy and teamwork on the flightdeck, since having been an FO before I knew what negative effect an overbearing and interfereing captain has on CRM and teamwork and therefore the overall safety of the flight.
To those who suggest that I refuse to fly with certain pilots and/or report the culprits to the chief pilot I am unfortunately in the following situaion: (1) The chief pilot is one of the culprits, (2) the company I fly for are not very structured and if any FO refuse to fly with any captain it will be severely looked upon and will most likely prevent future promotion, (3) any FOs promotion depends on one person, namely the chief pilot mentioned in (1), (4) in this company (by now I am wondering myself what on earth am I doing in this company!?) bad habit power trip captains make out about half of the captains I fly with.
Any advise for that?
Barrelroll
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Take your skills to pastures new......as has been pointed out already, these characters are usually the exception rather than the norm so the fact that your airline has so many of them with the role model of your CP for them to copy then things aren't going to change quickly!
PP
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Have to agree with S76Heavy and PilotPete, possibly time to start looking for something better, no rush, don't let yourself be pushed but a move would definitely seem to be in order, just so long as it is at your behest and without raising a storm!
From my own bitter experience I can assure you that even when you are 200% correct it will be very difficult to win if you try to take on the chief pilot!
From my own bitter experience I can assure you that even when you are 200% correct it will be very difficult to win if you try to take on the chief pilot!
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I feel that, (training sectors aside) although most of the FOs I fly with are very competent, there are a few who just don't know the job properly, and need some help and 'pointers' from time to time. Although there's nothing wrong with giving sectors away to them, they require a more 'kindergarten' approach.
A good, well-informed, FO, who knows the books well and can think for himself in terms of the 'big picture', should not be subject to frequent interruption.
A borderline-competent FO may well have a different (and unsatisfactory) experience.
A good, well-informed, FO, who knows the books well and can think for himself in terms of the 'big picture', should not be subject to frequent interruption.
A borderline-competent FO may well have a different (and unsatisfactory) experience.
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I think Rumbo has a valid point here.
Barrelroll, have you talked to other f/o`s in your company, wether they have had similar experiences with said captains?
Have you taken a good hard look in the mirror?
I`m not saying you are the problem here, but being able to objectively judge your own performance is a very important ability in any pilot (even more so for captains, btw)
Barrelroll, have you talked to other f/o`s in your company, wether they have had similar experiences with said captains?
Have you taken a good hard look in the mirror?
I`m not saying you are the problem here, but being able to objectively judge your own performance is a very important ability in any pilot (even more so for captains, btw)
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Rumbo and Seat 0A, I agree with you that some FO's are not up to standard and might require pointers from time to time, but such pointers have to be very tactful; or better yet, after the flight as a debriefing. If it is done any other way you will not achieve anything but disrespect. If you as a captain have to interfere or feel that pointers are necessary on a regular basis it means one of two things: (1) The FO is problematic and not up to standard, he must be reported and something must be done about it or (2) you are an interfering captain by habit. Look in the mirror and ask yourself which one is it? If it is the number (1), report the not up to standard FO to the chief pilot.
This is not only my viewpoint, I have talked to most of the FO's in the company and they all feel the same way about the interfering captains. Don't forget that I am looking at this very real problem (and an issue it is judged by the number of views this subject has recieved) not only from an FO's point of view, but from a Captain and a Training Captain's point of view as well. I am just not willing to accept it as an FO, because it interferes with general CRM principles (e.g. teamwork and a positive atmosphere) and therefore safety. Safety should be your number one concern as a commander.
Barrelroll
This is not only my viewpoint, I have talked to most of the FO's in the company and they all feel the same way about the interfering captains. Don't forget that I am looking at this very real problem (and an issue it is judged by the number of views this subject has recieved) not only from an FO's point of view, but from a Captain and a Training Captain's point of view as well. I am just not willing to accept it as an FO, because it interferes with general CRM principles (e.g. teamwork and a positive atmosphere) and therefore safety. Safety should be your number one concern as a commander.
Barrelroll
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I hope I'm not the culprit in Pilot Petes mob(slime green??)
For what its worth I have been in this scenario when RHS and have sat and stewed and fumed for months on end as I was attached on a "married roster" with these clowns.Ironically I always flew badly with these guys as I was reluctant to actualy do anything for fear of criticism.Bad show all round.
Eventualy I gritted my teeth and had a sound head to head with the guy.I am quite happy to be PNF on both sectors but if you want to give me the leg please let me fly it!.There is nothing worse than being the Captains "human autopliot". I know of guys who simply hand over control when the interferance starts.
Anyway this seemed to clear the air and things improved greatly.The other guy is reminded that you are an adult,have opinions and are not his lap dog.
All the above assumes that you fly a safe operation of course.
For what its worth I have been in this scenario when RHS and have sat and stewed and fumed for months on end as I was attached on a "married roster" with these clowns.Ironically I always flew badly with these guys as I was reluctant to actualy do anything for fear of criticism.Bad show all round.
Eventualy I gritted my teeth and had a sound head to head with the guy.I am quite happy to be PNF on both sectors but if you want to give me the leg please let me fly it!.There is nothing worse than being the Captains "human autopliot". I know of guys who simply hand over control when the interferance starts.
Anyway this seemed to clear the air and things improved greatly.The other guy is reminded that you are an adult,have opinions and are not his lap dog.
All the above assumes that you fly a safe operation of course.
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Homer, handing over control does seem to do the trick. At one point we were leveling off at low level from a fast climb when the captain interfered, I could not hand over control because he was so far behind the program that we (or he then) would have busted the altitude. Thanks for the advice.
Barrelroll
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Homer,
No, definately not as my īslime` unfortunately slipped away some time back!
Rumbo,
I agree completely about `borderline F/Os`, but do be careful with īgiving sectors away` as that may be interpretted as a captain who deigns to allow the F/O to drive once in a while, which may not be the best CRM for a competent F/O! It is funny how this debate can be seen from both sides; there are plenty of captains ho need an eye keeping on them, just as there are plenty of F/Os who need the same! My argument would be that perhaps there shouldn`t be.
PP
No, definately not as my īslime` unfortunately slipped away some time back!
Rumbo,
I agree completely about `borderline F/Os`, but do be careful with īgiving sectors away` as that may be interpretted as a captain who deigns to allow the F/O to drive once in a while, which may not be the best CRM for a competent F/O! It is funny how this debate can be seen from both sides; there are plenty of captains ho need an eye keeping on them, just as there are plenty of F/Os who need the same! My argument would be that perhaps there shouldn`t be.
PP
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Knob
Pete,
You forgot to mention that he wears his shades in the TERMINAL at NIGHT........
What a bloke.
Homer,
I don't think it is you either. Big kiss xxxxx.
On a positive note, after I had a "discussion" in Girona with this fella, I asked him how old he is. Late 50's now, so only about 3 years to go guys......
Good luck all.
You forgot to mention that he wears his shades in the TERMINAL at NIGHT........
What a bloke.
Homer,
I don't think it is you either. Big kiss xxxxx.
On a positive note, after I had a "discussion" in Girona with this fella, I asked him how old he is. Late 50's now, so only about 3 years to go guys......
Good luck all.
Pilot Pete: Is there a group of pilots there who are part of a union branch, such as "Professional Standards" who guys/gals can appeal to, especially when people's styles or personalities clash? When there is a choice in the US, going straight to a Chief Pilot or Check Airman etc can be considered very bad form, depending on the country you live in.
A few people who simply ignore the low-profile solutions and go straight to a Chief Pilot over small matters (flicking the battery switch to shutdown the APU or forcefully holding the spoiler handle down for a few seconds when landing, in order to get a smoother touchdown etc), often want to promote themselves into different flying jobs which add a title to their job description, and would be considered chicken-****s at my airline. If significant, repeated safety violations happen, the Check Airmen hear about it somehow through the grapevine, anyway.
By the way, if someone pretty well calls for "flaps zero" and "slats retract" etc within a few knots of the right speeds, tries to level off at the required altitudes, tries hard to navigate (and dodge thunderstorms or major vertical cloud build-ups), tries to remember to call for checklists and flies the approach with a good effort at such important things, then jerk Captains should not interfere with anyone's different techniques or styles.
If such Captains are not getting much 'trim' at home (you know what I mean...), then maybe a good deal can be found with a jevrouw in Amsterdam, not far from Centraal Station.
A few people who simply ignore the low-profile solutions and go straight to a Chief Pilot over small matters (flicking the battery switch to shutdown the APU or forcefully holding the spoiler handle down for a few seconds when landing, in order to get a smoother touchdown etc), often want to promote themselves into different flying jobs which add a title to their job description, and would be considered chicken-****s at my airline. If significant, repeated safety violations happen, the Check Airmen hear about it somehow through the grapevine, anyway.
By the way, if someone pretty well calls for "flaps zero" and "slats retract" etc within a few knots of the right speeds, tries to level off at the required altitudes, tries hard to navigate (and dodge thunderstorms or major vertical cloud build-ups), tries to remember to call for checklists and flies the approach with a good effort at such important things, then jerk Captains should not interfere with anyone's different techniques or styles.
If such Captains are not getting much 'trim' at home (you know what I mean...), then maybe a good deal can be found with a jevrouw in Amsterdam, not far from Centraal Station.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 1st Feb 2003 at 03:35.
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Not as such I don't think I.O. Most UK airlines have a Flight Safety Officer who acts as the go-between where safety is an issue. Again it comes down to personalities and whether on not you feel that this particualr individual is approachable or not. I have always 'chatted' to an onside training captain (who has bags full of descretion) about such issues to get their advice from the safety/ how to best deal with it in the eyes of the company point of view. They are usually pretty good and it serves the purpose of having spoken to someone in the training department who can do a little research/ corrective training whilst giving the benefit of the doubt (on the first occassion)! The only problem with this particular individual is more to do with the 'lack' of correction from anyone in training/ management even though he is well known for it in the company by all. That speaks volumes for the management and I for one am happy to have nothing to do with them any more.
Diving straight in to the Chief Pilot can be overkill, but if it's a serious safety breach then you as an individual have a duty to say something no matter how unpleasant that may be.
Diving straight in to the Chief Pilot can be overkill, but if it's a serious safety breach then you as an individual have a duty to say something no matter how unpleasant that may be.