Pilot fatigue...a victory, of sorts
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of there perennial problems is when duties are rostered to the max; no buffer. That is using the limits as the norms: daft. CAA paid lip service to their attitude of including a buffer in the rosters. They never insisted on it. Guess what.
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Where it's warm
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to the Judgment this guy asked his CP in an email
"Upon looking at the initial plogs produced at standard crews and turnaround times it became clear that the duty was actually planned into discretion by approximately twenty minutes. I informed the company that I would not be utilising my Captain’s discretion as per FTL7.18.1. It states “the extension shall be calculated according to what actually happens not on what was planned to happen.” Therefore as it was planned to go into discretion, my Captain’s discretion would not be an option. The company then produced high speed cruise plogs (MACH .82) in an attempt to reduce the planned FDP to below that of 12.30. Even then the duty time showed in excess of the maximum of 12.30.
The claimant asked what figures had been used to come up with the original FDP of exactly 12.30 which was exactly the maximum FDP available."
Then later in the Judgment it states
"The claimant asked on a number of occasions for information on how the flight was planned to come within the maximum FDP. The respondent never provided him with this information and has given no satisfactory explanation as to why they did not do so.
Now....I wonder why that would be "stroking chin"
"Upon looking at the initial plogs produced at standard crews and turnaround times it became clear that the duty was actually planned into discretion by approximately twenty minutes. I informed the company that I would not be utilising my Captain’s discretion as per FTL7.18.1. It states “the extension shall be calculated according to what actually happens not on what was planned to happen.” Therefore as it was planned to go into discretion, my Captain’s discretion would not be an option. The company then produced high speed cruise plogs (MACH .82) in an attempt to reduce the planned FDP to below that of 12.30. Even then the duty time showed in excess of the maximum of 12.30.
The claimant asked what figures had been used to come up with the original FDP of exactly 12.30 which was exactly the maximum FDP available."
Then later in the Judgment it states
"The claimant asked on a number of occasions for information on how the flight was planned to come within the maximum FDP. The respondent never provided him with this information and has given no satisfactory explanation as to why they did not do so.
Now....I wonder why that would be "stroking chin"
Last edited by onlythetruth; 20th Dec 2016 at 11:43.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: London
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some senior managers still remain, maybe that's were the whole problem is, a new change required, surely after this episode, wasting valuable money, money which employees took a pay cut to save the business and not pay expensive legal fees to pursue a personal vendetta.
Is this an attempt at justification?
Guys
MS was seen as a vociferous and difficult character and various bullshit excuses were invented to have him gone. There had been past incidents involving go arounds and a diversion to a military airfield that left management a bit fired up already. Management actions cannot be justified over how they falsely targeted him but there's history here that you need to be aware of.
TCX pilots are not overstretched and average hours remain below 700. This was a one off from 2 years ago. Pilot management has been overhauled but senior figures remain. That kind of tells you how much backing they had from the very top to persue MS.
In conclusion it was personal.
MS was seen as a vociferous and difficult character and various bullshit excuses were invented to have him gone. There had been past incidents involving go arounds and a diversion to a military airfield that left management a bit fired up already. Management actions cannot be justified over how they falsely targeted him but there's history here that you need to be aware of.
TCX pilots are not overstretched and average hours remain below 700. This was a one off from 2 years ago. Pilot management has been overhauled but senior figures remain. That kind of tells you how much backing they had from the very top to persue MS.
In conclusion it was personal.
This action now looks vindictive from a company that places no time limitation for the expiry of a previous penalty. Often those standing up for greater compliance with regulations are branded as awkward and difficult by management.
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: BHX
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This just in from BBC BBC Radio Shropshire - Eric Smith and Clare Ashford, 21/12/2016 BALPA's Rob Hunter at 2 hours 22 minutes today
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: BHX
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly my thoughts Journey Man, it has always been my experience that those seen as "difficult" by managers are usually the ones with principle and integrity.
Care to elaborate Mr Monarch?..you seem to have the "inside scoop" on this. You make it sound like MS had a disciplinary record as long as your arm. Is that the case? Unless LAS is now classified as a military airfield!? Maybe he just refused to "bend the rules" or was not willing to succumb to management pressure to do the "wrong thing".
Your comment "TCX pilots are not overstretched” indicates that maybe you are not as "plugged in" as you may believe you are.
Care to elaborate Mr Monarch?..you seem to have the "inside scoop" on this. You make it sound like MS had a disciplinary record as long as your arm. Is that the case? Unless LAS is now classified as a military airfield!? Maybe he just refused to "bend the rules" or was not willing to succumb to management pressure to do the "wrong thing".
Your comment "TCX pilots are not overstretched” indicates that maybe you are not as "plugged in" as you may believe you are.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK, Paris, Peckham, New York
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one ever putting fatigue reports, imagine what the rosters will look like in 10,20,30 years....
When these nasa scientists look at the historical rosters and see no fatigue reports, they will have evidence to make ftl more gruelling, as we are not tired, there are no fatigue reports!
I have heard of one famous loco airline not allowing people to use the f word, as it involves reports being submitted to the authorities....
When these nasa scientists look at the historical rosters and see no fatigue reports, they will have evidence to make ftl more gruelling, as we are not tired, there are no fatigue reports!
I have heard of one famous loco airline not allowing people to use the f word, as it involves reports being submitted to the authorities....
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: CHESHIRE
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definitely vindictive behaviour by management but also a warning to other company pilots not to go fatigued. The tribunal has brought the truth out. What does it take to get the board to recognise the huge waste of company resources in this case and take appropriate actions against the accountable managers who have caused this sorry state of affairs?
As a footnote to MonarchorBust; come on; 700 hours is no indication of manning levels! It's all about how those duty hours are rostered. You could be flying 200 and be knackered or 900 and be in a comfortable regular pattern - those who have been there know it. The pilots have no confidence in TCX management to act on their fatigue concerns and don't put in reports as a result. Currently the long haul programme consists of ramming pilots into economy seats backwards and forwards across the pond to save money on hotac and duty time, oh, and pilots...
As a footnote to MonarchorBust; come on; 700 hours is no indication of manning levels! It's all about how those duty hours are rostered. You could be flying 200 and be knackered or 900 and be in a comfortable regular pattern - those who have been there know it. The pilots have no confidence in TCX management to act on their fatigue concerns and don't put in reports as a result. Currently the long haul programme consists of ramming pilots into economy seats backwards and forwards across the pond to save money on hotac and duty time, oh, and pilots...
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Where it's warm
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MonarchOrBust You state "there's history here that you need to be aware of" Pray spill the beans. Sounds like you have the inside gen, and i am sure all those that know these individuals including MS are all ears about the History you have now referred to twice. Come on man, you can't say things like that then bottle it!!
In fact you mentioned something similar in a previous post but for some reason that post appears now to have "evaporated". Another "evaporated" post said that RS hated MS. So what exactly is behind this or, as others have said, is it really just a case of a group of managers ganging together to give a good guy a kicking simply because he places his crews and passengers safety first rather than dance the previously named managers tune who, according to my contacts at TCX were referred to as "bullies" and operated via "intimidation" according to a survey released a couple of months back?
In fact you mentioned something similar in a previous post but for some reason that post appears now to have "evaporated". Another "evaporated" post said that RS hated MS. So what exactly is behind this or, as others have said, is it really just a case of a group of managers ganging together to give a good guy a kicking simply because he places his crews and passengers safety first rather than dance the previously named managers tune who, according to my contacts at TCX were referred to as "bullies" and operated via "intimidation" according to a survey released a couple of months back?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
700 hours is no indication of manning levels! It's all about how those duty hours are rostered.
In early 80's Britannia had a company limit of 700hrs pa. Since 90% of that was achieved in 7 months it could be quite tiring at times.
Currently the long haul programme consists of ramming pilots into economy seats backwards and forwards across the pond to save money on hotac and duty time, oh, and pilots...
That to me is the fault of the pilots. Where is the self-dignity.
I once had occasion to be planned to go to USA to collect & ferry an a/c home. 2 of us were rostered 3 sectors, economy, to travel 16 hours. They had then planned minimum rest before the return crossing. I discovered that the 'package' included business class travel paid by the supplier, and 3 days hotac on arrival.
Stern words were exchanged with management. In politic speak; frank, open & robust discussions took place. Views were exchanged and a successful outcome was mutually agreed and implemented.
They push; you know your rights & the strength of your arguments and push back. If you have the strength of your convictions, and solid common sense to back you up, then you'll win more than you lose. Somewhere up the chain of command you will find someone who has some nouse & gumption when they know the facts. I gave up arguing with indians years ago. You need to talk to the chiefs to get anything done.
In early 80's Britannia had a company limit of 700hrs pa. Since 90% of that was achieved in 7 months it could be quite tiring at times.
Currently the long haul programme consists of ramming pilots into economy seats backwards and forwards across the pond to save money on hotac and duty time, oh, and pilots...
That to me is the fault of the pilots. Where is the self-dignity.
I once had occasion to be planned to go to USA to collect & ferry an a/c home. 2 of us were rostered 3 sectors, economy, to travel 16 hours. They had then planned minimum rest before the return crossing. I discovered that the 'package' included business class travel paid by the supplier, and 3 days hotac on arrival.
Stern words were exchanged with management. In politic speak; frank, open & robust discussions took place. Views were exchanged and a successful outcome was mutually agreed and implemented.
They push; you know your rights & the strength of your arguments and push back. If you have the strength of your convictions, and solid common sense to back you up, then you'll win more than you lose. Somewhere up the chain of command you will find someone who has some nouse & gumption when they know the facts. I gave up arguing with indians years ago. You need to talk to the chiefs to get anything done.
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Where it's warm
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“However, there was a disagreement between him and his managers about his conduct which led to the tribunal proceedings."
"about his conduct" Well that clearly means, according to the judgment, the named managers at Thomas Cook believe that refusing to fly due to a dangerous level of fatigue and putting the lives of passengers and crew at risk, and actually explaining that directly to the company, is "conduct" not becoming of a Thomas Cook Pilot. " at no point was Captain Simkins expected to fly while fatigued." . So apart from playing the spineless, passing the buck "oh I'm sick" card or, with criminal negligence, agreed to fly what EXACTLY should he have done? lie?
The comment about his "conduct" appears to have spectaculaly backfired.
"about his conduct" Well that clearly means, according to the judgment, the named managers at Thomas Cook believe that refusing to fly due to a dangerous level of fatigue and putting the lives of passengers and crew at risk, and actually explaining that directly to the company, is "conduct" not becoming of a Thomas Cook Pilot. " at no point was Captain Simkins expected to fly while fatigued." . So apart from playing the spineless, passing the buck "oh I'm sick" card or, with criminal negligence, agreed to fly what EXACTLY should he have done? lie?
The comment about his "conduct" appears to have spectaculaly backfired.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: London
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems the company have sunk to an all low by changing the focus to pilots conduct not fatigue, talk about the Middle East, this seems like such an evil company to work for, first the way they handled the death of those children and now this.
BBC Local Live: Shropshire Friday 23 December 2016 - BBC News
BBC Local Live: Shropshire Friday 23 December 2016 - BBC News
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Where it's warm
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the BBC
"Thomas Cook is insisting its dispute with the Ellesmere pilot Mike Simkins was about "his conduct" and that "at no point was Captain Simkins expected to fly while fatigued"
Has anybody else seen anything to suggest that MS was anything other than totally professional in his conduct in the Judgement because I've not.
It looks like they are really desperately trying to smear this guy. Must be the same PR company who screwed up their handling of the Corfu Tragedy because I think it's clear everyone is seeing through this.
"Thomas Cook is insisting its dispute with the Ellesmere pilot Mike Simkins was about "his conduct" and that "at no point was Captain Simkins expected to fly while fatigued"
Has anybody else seen anything to suggest that MS was anything other than totally professional in his conduct in the Judgement because I've not.
It looks like they are really desperately trying to smear this guy. Must be the same PR company who screwed up their handling of the Corfu Tragedy because I think it's clear everyone is seeing through this.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 75
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then was there not also the case of Thomas Cook Airlines Services Ltd v Wolstenholme. I wonder what really happened to him.
Full particulars of the judgement may be found at:
Thomas Cook Airline Services Ltd v Wolstenholme UKEAT/0353/12/KN
Full particulars of the judgement may be found at:
Thomas Cook Airline Services Ltd v Wolstenholme UKEAT/0353/12/KN
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hawarden (near EGNR)
Age: 73
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thomas Cook gas deaths: Firm's contact with family 'often ill-judged' Thomas Cook gas deaths: Firm's contact with family 'often ill-judged' - BBC News
Quote, "Travel firm Thomas Cook's dealings with the family of two children killed by carbon monoxide were often ill-judged, an independent review has found.
Bobby and Christi Shepherd, aged six and seven, died at the Louis Corcyra Beach Hotel, in Corfu, in October 2006.
The review said the deaths were compounded by Thomas Cook's reaction.
Thomas Cook said the report, which also said parts of the firm protected costs ahead of customer experience, made for "uncomfortable reading in parts".
Quote, "Travel firm Thomas Cook's dealings with the family of two children killed by carbon monoxide were often ill-judged, an independent review has found.
Bobby and Christi Shepherd, aged six and seven, died at the Louis Corcyra Beach Hotel, in Corfu, in October 2006.
The review said the deaths were compounded by Thomas Cook's reaction.
Thomas Cook said the report, which also said parts of the firm protected costs ahead of customer experience, made for "uncomfortable reading in parts".
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hawarden (near EGNR)
Age: 73
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Travel firm Thomas Cook's dealings with the family of two children killed by carbon monoxide were often ill-judged, an independent review has found.
Bobby and Christi Shepherd, aged six and seven, died at the Louis Corcyra Beach Hotel, in Corfu, in October 2006.
The review said the deaths were compounded by Thomas Cook's reaction.
Thomas Cook said the report, which also said parts of the firm protected costs ahead of customer experience, made for "uncomfortable reading in parts".
Bobby and Christi Shepherd, aged six and seven, died at the Louis Corcyra Beach Hotel, in Corfu, in October 2006.
The review said the deaths were compounded by Thomas Cook's reaction.
Thomas Cook said the report, which also said parts of the firm protected costs ahead of customer experience, made for "uncomfortable reading in parts".
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 75
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had it been my intention I`d have chosen confrontation rather "insinuation". So far as my remark is concerned is no more or less than any casual reader of the judgement would have said. Perhaps better rephrased would have been : "what was that all about ". If of course the mind- police wouldn`t mind that.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What can we learn from this episode?
1. Don't leave it to the day before / on the day to have such discussions.
2. Don't ring Crewing - ring the Duty Pilot - your Manager.
3. Planned VV actual. The previous CAA advice particularly on ETOPS / 2 crew / CAP371 was FDP calculations were based on "planned" not "actual". Need to check on EASA. This case was a one off schedule however.
4. Plenty of discussion over the years that CAP371 regs on early/lates/nights caused rostering issues when switching from early duties e.g. to afternoons. This incident is the proof perhaps....
There are no winners.
1. Don't leave it to the day before / on the day to have such discussions.
2. Don't ring Crewing - ring the Duty Pilot - your Manager.
3. Planned VV actual. The previous CAA advice particularly on ETOPS / 2 crew / CAP371 was FDP calculations were based on "planned" not "actual". Need to check on EASA. This case was a one off schedule however.
4. Plenty of discussion over the years that CAP371 regs on early/lates/nights caused rostering issues when switching from early duties e.g. to afternoons. This incident is the proof perhaps....
There are no winners.
