Safety, CRM, QA & Emergency Response Planning A wide ranging forum for issues facing Aviation Professionals and Academics

Pilot fatigue...a victory, of sorts

Old 10th Dec 2016, 14:38
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Pilot fatigue...a victory, of sorts

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetal...fatigue-rules/
falconeasydriver is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 14:45
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not Aviation House
Posts: 320
Very interesting, and well done to anyone who stands up for themselves.

I am concerned that I did not know about the case, as it could affect other UK pilots.

Where publicity is appropriate, we need to know about this sort of thing, so:-

- support can be offered;

- the behaviour of employers is know to employees.

If only we had a resource whereby such case information is shared for us all to benefit.

How would such a thing be facilitated, I wonder ...........
Fire and brimstone is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 17:47
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,352
Although the company have been totally discredited, the payout is unlikely to be adequate compensation for the loss of his position, and future difficulty in explaining his situation to any prospective employer.

In the meantime the company have managed to achieve a convincing demonstration of "pour encourager les autres " for a relatively small forfeit (I imagine ) & will never have another fatigue report /refusal to extend for the foreseeable.

Whilst admirable in itself, it is a hopeless gesture in the grand scheme of things if no action is taken against the company by the relevant authority charged with oversight, and that ain't gonna happen any time soon . . . too many "old boys club" / funny handshakes around for that to be a risk.
captplaystation is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 18:03
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,421
too many "old boys club" / funny handshakes around for that to be a risk.
Well, maybe; it was certainly a factor a decade or two ago and for all I know still is.

But the most likely reason in 2016 is the mixture of aeronautical incompetence, bureaucracy, and time-serving laziness that has taken over at the UK CAA, where anyone who might have had the balls to confront and face down the operational management of a major operator on a safety issue left the building a long time ago.
Capot is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 18:25
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 880
Every time you get Ill because of fatigue, report it as an industrial injury. Then things will change.
tonker is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 18:36
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 738
I think you will find that the payout will be very much more than adequate.
This tale has been very long in the telling as has a fair way to go yet.
macdo is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 19:24
  #7 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting home
Age: 42
Posts: 2,683
Oh my. The company produced a duty schedule beyond permissible max FDP and told court it would be legal for CMD to use discretion to make their plan happen!

Genuine question, is this how UK CAA interprets the rules? Here's ours, I believe bog standard, OM-A wording (my bolding ):
... to modify the limits on flight duty, duty and rest periods by the Commander in the case of unforeseen circumstances in flight operations, which start at or after the reporting time, shall comply with the following
(caveat: the above issue is not the crux of the argument at court as I understand it, and was completely avoided in the judgement)
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 19:45
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,051
One of the dissapointing things here is that BALPA did not give their support until this was well down the road, given the importance of this to ALL members I would say this should have been supported right from the start!
foxmoth is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 19:55
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,634
Just a shame that the F word is being used so much when the S word Sleepiness is more appropriate in this case.
Mr Angry from Purley is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 21:52
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 341
Anyone know how to download and save the judgement? My efforts so far lose the formatting in PDF.

PC Windows 10.......don't ask!
Starbear is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 22:23
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hawarden (near EGNR)
Age: 70
Posts: 63
So far, I cannot read beyond the bottom of page 25.
Ancient-Mariner is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 23:17
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 363
Starbear,

Try "print to file".

Last edited by Tay Cough; 10th Dec 2016 at 23:36.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2016, 23:45
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,509
After the tram crash in Croydon there are a few cases coming to light of the drivers being 'sleepy' at the controls. Pax taking photos of a nodding off driver last week. Now I understand the real reason for a locked cockpit door and no visits.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2016, 00:04
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,352
Disgusted is too lame a word (if as reported ) BALPA didn't support this from Day 1 . . . . . where are this Unions Balls ?

Oh, I know . . . down at the local lodge, where they always hold balls. . . . .


I know you think I have some sort of obsession with this, but, having been a victim of it in 1996, when the 2 guys on the opposite side of the table were in fact being helped, rather than challenged, by my "support" on my side of the table (who, of course went on to become part of the Flt Ops management ) I don't believe it has changed measurably.

Ask your CC member directly . . . do you drink in the same lodge as the management ? go on, ask him !
captplaystation is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2016, 00:40
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,348
Mr Angry....care to elaborate?
Right Way Up is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2016, 08:47
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Die Suddetenland
Posts: 123
Senior Management,and Corporate Leaders should face prison terms should their organisation be found culpable or complicit in, fatigue-producing rosters or work practices, should that be found to be a causal factor in an accident.

The fish rots at the head, and these pricks should not just take the credit for profits.
Oriana is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2016, 09:51
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: gamma quadrant
Posts: 268
Just a shame that the F word is being used so much when the S word Sleepiness is more appropriate in this case.
Anything that affects the cognitive capability of a pilot is a safety issue. I've heard the argument between the F and S word and it's total BS.
propaganda is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2016, 09:58
  #18 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting home
Age: 42
Posts: 2,683
The case which the court solved seems clear. Company was found to had acted illegaly in persecuting the pilot after his fatigued call and refusal of duty.
a) he did operate beyond the normally allowed FDP the day before
b) he genuinely felt unfit (personal remark: the term fatigue is normally associated with a different type of un-fitness)
c) moreover, the court explains that because of B he was not legal to operate anyhow.

Had the verdict been opposite, the whole idea of managing fatigue-associated risks (not the individual implemented systems = companies' procedures, but the concept in general ) would have been shred to pieces. So quite simple in this respect.

The narrative of the first day is what I find interesting. At the duty start, the plan was beyond the max permissible FDP. Are you allowed to commence a duty which requires discretion to complete?
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2016, 10:02
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 737
Ask a certain Eastern European low cost Airbus operator who regularly rostered duties that were planned to go into discretion. Two such days in a row were not uncommon.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2016, 10:04
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 685
Right way up.

Mr Angry....care to elaborate?
I too, would be intrigued to hear how Mr Angry's own personal experience has coloured his opinion.
Stan Woolley is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.