Pilot over drink/drive limit removed from aircraft
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Thank you, Flying Lawyer, for your response.
Facts and figures beat anecdotal evidence every time.
So we can be more or less agreed that alcohol actually plays such little part in the performance/non-performance of pilots with regard to recorded accidents/incidents that it can be disregarded.
(And I'd personally prefer a BA captain with a half bottle of wine than a newbie when the bird hits the fan).
Facts and figures beat anecdotal evidence every time.
So we can be more or less agreed that alcohol actually plays such little part in the performance/non-performance of pilots with regard to recorded accidents/incidents that it can be disregarded.
(And I'd personally prefer a BA captain with a half bottle of wine than a newbie when the bird hits the fan).
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Absolutely sharksandwich, I'm with you.
Although I would personally like to point out who I would prefer in the flight deck rather than a newbie.
Tui captain: 1/3 of a bottle of wine
TCX captain: 1/3 of a bottle of wine
EZY captain: 1/4 of a bottle of wine
FR captain: 1/5 of a bottle of wine
But I agree for me a BA captain is at the top of that table (I think I could possibly have him as high as 3/4 of a bottle but that would depend on type and experience).
All joking aside you asked a very reasonable question earlier. Although drinking seems not to have been labelled as a sole cause for many (if any) commercial aircraft accidents there is no doubt that drinking will slow your response time and possibly affect your judgement, not unlike fatigue which is equated to alcohol levels on occasion and has been attributed as the cause of or partially to blame for many accidents.
I would say drinking is obviously a big no no and gives you another hole in your Swiss cheese. Out here we have random drug and alcohol tests at report and down route. I have been breathalysed 3 times this year. A great way to ensure you abstain for a suitable period before work!
Although I would personally like to point out who I would prefer in the flight deck rather than a newbie.
Tui captain: 1/3 of a bottle of wine
TCX captain: 1/3 of a bottle of wine
EZY captain: 1/4 of a bottle of wine
FR captain: 1/5 of a bottle of wine
But I agree for me a BA captain is at the top of that table (I think I could possibly have him as high as 3/4 of a bottle but that would depend on type and experience).
All joking aside you asked a very reasonable question earlier. Although drinking seems not to have been labelled as a sole cause for many (if any) commercial aircraft accidents there is no doubt that drinking will slow your response time and possibly affect your judgement, not unlike fatigue which is equated to alcohol levels on occasion and has been attributed as the cause of or partially to blame for many accidents.
I would say drinking is obviously a big no no and gives you another hole in your Swiss cheese. Out here we have random drug and alcohol tests at report and down route. I have been breathalysed 3 times this year. A great way to ensure you abstain for a suitable period before work!
Last edited by 320goat; 2nd Nov 2014 at 05:54.
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Is there not a danger that if breath testing is not done voluntarily it may be forced upon the industry by regulation.
There are precedents in the railway industry and our armed forces where random drug testing is commonplace.
There are precedents in the railway industry and our armed forces where random drug testing is commonplace.
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(And I'd personally prefer a BA captain with a half bottle of wine than a newbie when the bird hits the fan
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Alcohol dulls the senses, impairs reaction time, makes motoric movements and reflexes slower. It's poison for the brain, and I'm not going to defend any drunk driver. Yet, as some correctly pointed out, alcohol is not a major cause of concern for airline accidents. It's a potential problem that people are well aware of, and airlines have an excellent track record of managing it, without the help of the police. Then...there's the issue of fatigue, which is just as dangerous, and in real life, a bigger threat, yet, methinks it gets less attention than alcohol.
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Very few, if any accidents attributed to alcohol? Don't let the statistics fool you. "Why" have there been so few related accidents? One pilot intoxicated, one pilot not, that could be the answer. Look at it this way; both pilots intoxicated. Now would you feel so comfortable placing your loved ones aboard?
Is the very reason there hasn't been many accidents attributed to alcohol down to the fact that there is, generally speaking, one sober crew member on board? Do the statistics exonerate alcohol as being debilitating to a pilot's ability to undertake his roles? Do the statistics point to the fact that it's ok to have a wee tipple before boarding an aircraft as flight crew? In my eyes no it doesn't, if both crew members were intoxicated I would be very, very concerned for the safety of any flight.
Statistics - Never tell the whole story.
Is the very reason there hasn't been many accidents attributed to alcohol down to the fact that there is, generally speaking, one sober crew member on board? Do the statistics exonerate alcohol as being debilitating to a pilot's ability to undertake his roles? Do the statistics point to the fact that it's ok to have a wee tipple before boarding an aircraft as flight crew? In my eyes no it doesn't, if both crew members were intoxicated I would be very, very concerned for the safety of any flight.
Statistics - Never tell the whole story.
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"When has there been an accident primarily due to intoxication?"
OK, I've only just arrived back.
It's less than 18 hours since I responded (somewhat discourteously, I will concede) to sharksandwich's above question.
I notice that sharksandwich subsequently clarified his original post to say that he was referring only to AIRLINE accidents.
I did state that I'd had personal experience with a few alcohol-induced tragedies - THREE, to be specific, all of them 'private' flights.
One, in particular, witnessed by many of us, stands out.
A number of us were enjoying an after-work beer at the High Flyer Hotel at Bankstown. (This was around '83-'84).
We did notice a heated discussion developing on the other side of the room between people, some of whom were known to us from the airport.
One young fellow, in particular, seemed to be getting a bit excited. He subsequently left and things quietened down.
After having had my couple, I said my goodbyes and left to drive home.
As I was leaving, I heard an aircraft apparently 'buzzing' the hotel. At the time, I didn't make any connection between the earlier arguing and the 'unusual' flying happening overhead.
Some distance down the road, I heard the aircraft noise suddenly cease and looked around to see a sizeable fire near the airport boundary.
I turned around and went back to see emergency services already arriving on the scene. Nothing could be done but to extinguish the flames.
It turned out that the argumentative young chap, a student pilot, had (quite intoxicated, it seems) gone across to the flying school, knocked off one of their aircraft and proceeded to demonstrate to people in the pub what he was made of.
(I saw some of his remains the following morning, so I know what he WAS made of.)
etrang; I said a FEW - 3, actually. Please take the trouble to read paragraph 2 of my original post. I implied nothing, statistically, beyond that.
49th; OK, I've given you ONE. I think that's as much as I want to relate in one post, thankyou. Stay tuned.
Flying Lawyer; Oh, I see, so there's no difference between 'any' and a statistically 'minute number'? Hmm.
It's less than 18 hours since I responded (somewhat discourteously, I will concede) to sharksandwich's above question.
I notice that sharksandwich subsequently clarified his original post to say that he was referring only to AIRLINE accidents.
I did state that I'd had personal experience with a few alcohol-induced tragedies - THREE, to be specific, all of them 'private' flights.
One, in particular, witnessed by many of us, stands out.
A number of us were enjoying an after-work beer at the High Flyer Hotel at Bankstown. (This was around '83-'84).
We did notice a heated discussion developing on the other side of the room between people, some of whom were known to us from the airport.
One young fellow, in particular, seemed to be getting a bit excited. He subsequently left and things quietened down.
After having had my couple, I said my goodbyes and left to drive home.
As I was leaving, I heard an aircraft apparently 'buzzing' the hotel. At the time, I didn't make any connection between the earlier arguing and the 'unusual' flying happening overhead.
Some distance down the road, I heard the aircraft noise suddenly cease and looked around to see a sizeable fire near the airport boundary.
I turned around and went back to see emergency services already arriving on the scene. Nothing could be done but to extinguish the flames.
It turned out that the argumentative young chap, a student pilot, had (quite intoxicated, it seems) gone across to the flying school, knocked off one of their aircraft and proceeded to demonstrate to people in the pub what he was made of.
(I saw some of his remains the following morning, so I know what he WAS made of.)
etrang; I said a FEW - 3, actually. Please take the trouble to read paragraph 2 of my original post. I implied nothing, statistically, beyond that.
49th; OK, I've given you ONE. I think that's as much as I want to relate in one post, thankyou. Stay tuned.
Flying Lawyer; Oh, I see, so there's no difference between 'any' and a statistically 'minute number'? Hmm.
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sharksandwich
I'm not entirely sure what you mean but, for the avoidance of any misunderstanding, I don't agree that the risks posed by alcohol can or should be disregarded.
Coffin Corner
Possibly.
Is that your experience? Generally? At Flybe?
I believe the chances of that happening are so remote that I never give it a thought.
Should I?
It could be. Is that your experience?
Or is it the case "generally speaking" that neither pilot's ability to fly is impaired by alcohol?
No, of course the statistics don't exonerate alcohol as being debilitating to a pilot's ability to undertake his roles nor, equally obviously, do they point to the fact that it's ok to have a wee tipple before boarding an aircraft as flight crew. Is that common practice these days in your experience?
What's the whole story?
Is it your experience that pilots commonly fly whilst impaired by alcohol?
I'm led to believe, by sources I regard as reliable, that there has been a significant culture change during recent decades. Have I been misled?
Stanwell
I thought it highly unlikely that I would have said that so I checked my post. I didn't.
(BTW, I've noticed that you often begin your posts with a full stop.
Why? Just curious.)
So we can be more or less agreed that alcohol actually plays such little part in the performance/non-performance of pilots with regard to recorded accidents/incidents that it can be disregarded.
Coffin Corner
"Why" have there been so few related accidents? One pilot intoxicated, one pilot not, that could be the answer.
Is that your experience? Generally? At Flybe?
Look at it this way; both pilots intoxicated. Now would you feel so comfortable placing your loved ones aboard?
Should I?
Is the very reason there hasn't been many accidents attributed to alcohol down to the fact that there is, generally speaking, one sober crew member on board?
Or is it the case "generally speaking" that neither pilot's ability to fly is impaired by alcohol?
No, of course the statistics don't exonerate alcohol as being debilitating to a pilot's ability to undertake his roles nor, equally obviously, do they point to the fact that it's ok to have a wee tipple before boarding an aircraft as flight crew. Is that common practice these days in your experience?
Statistics - Never tell the whole story.
Is it your experience that pilots commonly fly whilst impaired by alcohol?
I'm led to believe, by sources I regard as reliable, that there has been a significant culture change during recent decades. Have I been misled?
Stanwell
Flying Lawyer; Oh, I see, so there's no difference between 'any' and a statistically 'minute number'? Hmm.
I thought it highly unlikely that I would have said that so I checked my post. I didn't.
(BTW, I've noticed that you often begin your posts with a full stop.
Why? Just curious.)
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 2nd Nov 2014 at 14:51.
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FL,
The question was asked..
"When has there been an accident primarily due to intoxication?"
Your response was along the lines of..
"despite the millions of miles flown every year, only a minute fraction..."
I cite three such aviation 'accidents' of which I, in my limited time on this planet, have personal knowledge.
Does that, statistically, make me an unrepresentative sample?
Re the stop at the start of some of the posts, I'll let you in on that by PM.
Cheers.
The question was asked..
"When has there been an accident primarily due to intoxication?"
Your response was along the lines of..
"despite the millions of miles flown every year, only a minute fraction..."
I cite three such aviation 'accidents' of which I, in my limited time on this planet, have personal knowledge.
Does that, statistically, make me an unrepresentative sample?
Re the stop at the start of some of the posts, I'll let you in on that by PM.
Cheers.
Last edited by Stanwell; 2nd Nov 2014 at 15:53. Reason: Clumsiness
So we can be more or less agreed that alcohol actually plays such little part in the performance/non-performance of pilots with regard to recorded accidents/incidents that it can be disregarded.
Not unless we know:
The percentage and raw number of flights conducted by impaired pilots.
And the percentage of THOSE FLIGHTS which result in an accident - as compared with the accident rate overall.
The only way to test that is to test every crew for alcohol or drugs before every flight, and then let them fly, regardless of the test results, and record what happens.
There is a big difference between:
- What percentage of accidents are due to alcohol impairment?
- What are the odds of alcohol impairment resulting in an accident?
This report mentions an experiment in which 50 percent of instrument-rated pilots with a BAC over 0.12 lost control of their aircraft.
Alcohol Violations and Aviation Accidents: Findings from the U.S. Mandatory Alcohol Testing Program
It is unlikely, thanks to self-policing by pilots, and regulatory testing and the threat of testing, that any given flight will be conducted by alcohol-impaired pilots. Even in GA, alcohol impairment found in fatal accidents has shrunk from 30% in the 1960s to 8% in the 1990s. A cultural change.
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I don't think anybody would argue that intoxicaton impairs ones ability to fly. What I am wondering about this is how the police get involved. I am only a microlight flyer so I don't know anything about professional flying. But if you suspect a colleague of being over the limit, surely somebody from the company could be called to give him a breath test and ground him. Why get the police?
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@Stanwell
a few I know of.. the first one is a classic...
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-8-62AF JA8054 Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC)
JAL-DC8-62
The DC-8 had been cleared for a runway 24L departure. Taxiing to the runway in thick fog, the crew ended up on runway 24R. Tower control gave directions and the crew then taxied to runway 24L. Just after lifting off the runway, the DC-8 stalled and crashed 300m past the runway. The initial blood alcohol level of the captain was 298 mgs percent. A blood alcohol level of 100 mgs percent was considered to be legally intoxicating for drivers in the State of Alaska.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "A stall that resulted from the pilot's control inputs aggravated by airframe icing while the pilot was under the influence of alcohol. Contributing to the cause of this accident was the failure of the other flightcrew members to prevent the captain from attempting the flight."
and,
ASN Aircraft accident Learjet 25D N999BH Pecos, NM
and,
ASN Aircraft accident Learjet 25 N51CA Newark International Airport, NJ (EWR)
Night check courier flight. The Learjet descended steep and fast for runway 04R and bounced on landing. It banked to the right, hit the ground and burned. Both pilots exposed to marijuana and CO2 in blood from smoking.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "(a) Loss of control following ground contact, (b) an unstabilized approach. and c) impairment of the flightcrew's judgment, decisionmaking, and flying abilities by a combination of physiological and psychological factors."
the following is interesting too..
a few I know of.. the first one is a classic...
ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-8-62AF JA8054 Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC)
JAL-DC8-62
The DC-8 had been cleared for a runway 24L departure. Taxiing to the runway in thick fog, the crew ended up on runway 24R. Tower control gave directions and the crew then taxied to runway 24L. Just after lifting off the runway, the DC-8 stalled and crashed 300m past the runway. The initial blood alcohol level of the captain was 298 mgs percent. A blood alcohol level of 100 mgs percent was considered to be legally intoxicating for drivers in the State of Alaska.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "A stall that resulted from the pilot's control inputs aggravated by airframe icing while the pilot was under the influence of alcohol. Contributing to the cause of this accident was the failure of the other flightcrew members to prevent the captain from attempting the flight."
and,
ASN Aircraft accident Learjet 25D N999BH Pecos, NM
and,
ASN Aircraft accident Learjet 25 N51CA Newark International Airport, NJ (EWR)
Night check courier flight. The Learjet descended steep and fast for runway 04R and bounced on landing. It banked to the right, hit the ground and burned. Both pilots exposed to marijuana and CO2 in blood from smoking.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "(a) Loss of control following ground contact, (b) an unstabilized approach. and c) impairment of the flightcrew's judgment, decisionmaking, and flying abilities by a combination of physiological and psychological factors."
Last edited by vmandr; 2nd Nov 2014 at 18:06. Reason: added info
I recall reviewing a 737 accident report several years ago - the memory is vague but I think it was a -300 in China. During an attempted go-around, the engines didn't respond symmetrically (not uncommon pre-FADEC), the pilot responded badly, aircraft rolled and crashed - no survivors.
While the "official" cause of the crash was the asymmetric engine response, the pilot flying had a blood alcohol over 0.2%
. I feel pretty comfortable that the minor technical glitch could have been adequately handled by a sober pilot - even a newbie.
I also have a vague memory of a fatal news chopper crash in Colorado where the pilot had just left a Christmas party and was drunk on his ass.
So, is 'drunk flying' a major problem? No, but it is a problem, aircraft have crashed, and people have died. As SLF, I feel perfectly justified in demanding that the guys (or gals) up front are competent and sober.
While the "official" cause of the crash was the asymmetric engine response, the pilot flying had a blood alcohol over 0.2%
. I feel pretty comfortable that the minor technical glitch could have been adequately handled by a sober pilot - even a newbie.I also have a vague memory of a fatal news chopper crash in Colorado where the pilot had just left a Christmas party and was drunk on his ass.
So, is 'drunk flying' a major problem? No, but it is a problem, aircraft have crashed, and people have died. As SLF, I feel perfectly justified in demanding that the guys (or gals) up front are competent and sober.
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The 737 accident you mention sounds very much like the crash of the South China Airlines B737-300 in 1992 - although it didn't occur during an attempted go-around.
To the best of my recollection, the accident report didn't say anything about alcohol.
I assume you had 'inside information'?
The Colorado crash sounds like the Jetranger crash even longer ago in December 1982 when the (single) pilot of a news helicopter pressed on at night in atrocious weather (snow & fog) in mountainous terrain.
"drunk on his ass"
The pilot's alcohol level (some hours later) was 0.093%
(I doubt if it would be possible to fly a light helicopter while 'drunk on your ass'.
)
To the best of my recollection, the accident report didn't say anything about alcohol.
I assume you had 'inside information'?
The Colorado crash sounds like the Jetranger crash even longer ago in December 1982 when the (single) pilot of a news helicopter pressed on at night in atrocious weather (snow & fog) in mountainous terrain.
"drunk on his ass"
The pilot's alcohol level (some hours later) was 0.093%
(I doubt if it would be possible to fly a light helicopter while 'drunk on your ass'.
)
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FL, when I said the risks posed by drunken pilots was negligible, I was of course taking into account that most pilots are responsible, that there has been a culture change with regard to alcohol and work generally which discourages irresponsible behavior, and that random tests sharpen awareness, so it is extremely rare for a pilot to go to work intoxicated.
(I was of course joking when I said I would refer a BA captain with a half bottle of wine,etc.)
In all seriousness, pilots are no more immune to alcohol problems than any other professional group, and I am concerned that the police seem to get involved at an early stage. This harshness is likely to discourage people from getting help before things get out of hand for them.
Do most airlines have in-house treatment programmes I wonder?
I believe it is entirely possible to go to work not realizing one has a blood alcohol concentration above the legal limit, but it is not possible to innocently go to work with alcohol on the breath or some other signs of intoxication which give rise to the concern of colleagues. These people have clearly got a problem and they must be aware of it.The only "treatment" being arrest and dismissal, especially after sometimes decades of loyal service seems both unfair and unjust.
(I was of course joking when I said I would refer a BA captain with a half bottle of wine,etc.)
In all seriousness, pilots are no more immune to alcohol problems than any other professional group, and I am concerned that the police seem to get involved at an early stage. This harshness is likely to discourage people from getting help before things get out of hand for them.
Do most airlines have in-house treatment programmes I wonder?
I believe it is entirely possible to go to work not realizing one has a blood alcohol concentration above the legal limit, but it is not possible to innocently go to work with alcohol on the breath or some other signs of intoxication which give rise to the concern of colleagues. These people have clearly got a problem and they must be aware of it.The only "treatment" being arrest and dismissal, especially after sometimes decades of loyal service seems both unfair and unjust.
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one of many(?) in that region...
Aeroflot Flight 821 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia '...possible alcohol consumption'
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 737-505 VP-BKO Perm Airport (PEE)
'...an unspecified amount of alcohol was detected in the pilot's body..'
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 737-505 VP-BKO Perm Airport (PEE)
'...an unspecified amount of alcohol was detected in the pilot's body..'
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Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Possibly.
Is that your experience? Generally? At Flybe?
Is that your experience? Generally? At Flybe?
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
I believe the chances of that happening are so remote that I never give it a thought.
Should I?
Should I?
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
It could be. Is that your experience?
Or is it the case "generally speaking" that neither pilot's ability to fly is impaired by alcohol?
No, of course the statistics don't exonerate alcohol as being debilitating to a pilot's ability to undertake his roles nor, equally obviously, do they point to the fact that it's ok to have a wee tipple before boarding an aircraft as flight crew. Is that common practice these days in your experience?
Or is it the case "generally speaking" that neither pilot's ability to fly is impaired by alcohol?
No, of course the statistics don't exonerate alcohol as being debilitating to a pilot's ability to undertake his roles nor, equally obviously, do they point to the fact that it's ok to have a wee tipple before boarding an aircraft as flight crew. Is that common practice these days in your experience?
Is it common practice to have a tipple before flying? You tell me, you obviously fly, have you witnessed it?
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
What's the whole story?
Is it your experience that pilots commonly fly whilst impaired by alcohol?
I'm led to believe, by sources I regard as reliable, that there has been a significant culture change during recent decades. Have I been misled?
Is it your experience that pilots commonly fly whilst impaired by alcohol?
I'm led to believe, by sources I regard as reliable, that there has been a significant culture change during recent decades. Have I been misled?
Is it my experience that pilots fly whilst impaired by alcohol? Just as ridiculous as quote 1. What do you want me to say? It's easier to count the sober pilots? You spin more rhetoric than the house of lords.
A culture change? In which direction? Would you care to elaborate your experiences?