Pilot over drink/drive limit removed from aircraft
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Agree with tankertrashnav-not a difficult choice when your life or many others are at risk.
Sadly I have been in this position twice as an ops /crew controller-when I had no option but to report my suspicions to my seniors about a crew member (both Captains) reporting for a flight.
Both were subsequently sacked and whilst that aspect is not one I am particularly proud of-I wouldnt hesitate doing again if I had my suspicions.
I am glad to say that both occurences were now over 20 years ago-and it would be nice to think it was a thing of the past-but sadly I somehow doubt it.
Both Captains were extremely likeable individuals which made the choice even more difficult.
Sadly I have been in this position twice as an ops /crew controller-when I had no option but to report my suspicions to my seniors about a crew member (both Captains) reporting for a flight.
Both were subsequently sacked and whilst that aspect is not one I am particularly proud of-I wouldnt hesitate doing again if I had my suspicions.
I am glad to say that both occurences were now over 20 years ago-and it would be nice to think it was a thing of the past-but sadly I somehow doubt it.
Both Captains were extremely likeable individuals which made the choice even more difficult.
Uncle Pete
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Length of time in custody- Maybe he was medically unfit to be interviewed. Perhaps the Custody sergeant had concerns as to his physical/mental wellbeing and called in a doctor. He'd need to do that anyway for a blood test.
Do NOT draw any inferences.
How many times have we heard of someone collapsed on a pavement or in a bar and alcohol has been blamed when there's a perfectly innocent explanation?
Do NOT draw any inferences.
How many times have we heard of someone collapsed on a pavement or in a bar and alcohol has been blamed when there's a perfectly innocent explanation?
Tanker trash / Halcyon
I don't refer to removing the pilot from the flight as being a hard call. Merely the method used. Again, I would directly suggest the affected crew member calls in sick, even stating to them my concerns; and if this fails I'd explain what I was then going to do: call in sick myself and contact my chief/fleet captain. Perhaps in the modern world that could be construed as masking the issue. However I'd like to give the individual the benefit of the doubt that they'd made a terrible error of judgement and I was doing them a favour.
The hard situation I refer to would be having that conversation with a colleague or taking it to the authorities directly.
I don't refer to removing the pilot from the flight as being a hard call. Merely the method used. Again, I would directly suggest the affected crew member calls in sick, even stating to them my concerns; and if this fails I'd explain what I was then going to do: call in sick myself and contact my chief/fleet captain. Perhaps in the modern world that could be construed as masking the issue. However I'd like to give the individual the benefit of the doubt that they'd made a terrible error of judgement and I was doing them a favour.
The hard situation I refer to would be having that conversation with a colleague or taking it to the authorities directly.
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Another One Too
BBC now reporting a pilot arrested this week on a charter flight into Norwich
BBC News - Charter pilot charged over alcohol level
BBC News - Charter pilot charged over alcohol level
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Maximum Pete
Length of time in custody... another possible explanation is the fact that if arrested and tested as being over the drink drive limit, the police will continue to hold and test you throughout the next few hours until you are below it before releasing you...
Length of time in custody... another possible explanation is the fact that if arrested and tested as being over the drink drive limit, the police will continue to hold and test you throughout the next few hours until you are below it before releasing you...
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Most of you seem to have no clue about breathalysers. Because so many companies (many of them are my customers) test everybody entering their premises, I have actually taken the time to study the breathalyser.
What kind of breathalyser they used at the airport doesn't matter to me much, but the police would have tested him with a breathalyser that has an extremely accurate sensor called the Fuel Cell sensor. If their instrument was properly calibrated, the reading would have been extremely close to the blood sample they most likely took later on. A blood test is the most accurate reading you can get.
If the breathalyser at the police station showed 0.000, he would have walked out of the door and resumed work. Where I am, if you blow so much as 0.001 %BAC, you kiss your flying career goodbye, no police test required. It's a huge pity he didn't call in sick.
What kind of breathalyser they used at the airport doesn't matter to me much, but the police would have tested him with a breathalyser that has an extremely accurate sensor called the Fuel Cell sensor. If their instrument was properly calibrated, the reading would have been extremely close to the blood sample they most likely took later on. A blood test is the most accurate reading you can get.
If the breathalyser at the police station showed 0.000, he would have walked out of the door and resumed work. Where I am, if you blow so much as 0.001 %BAC, you kiss your flying career goodbye, no police test required. It's a huge pity he didn't call in sick.
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From someone who is not certainly not a professional, and rarely a passenger, but interested in aviation: has there been many accidents when intoxication has been the main factor?
In all seriousness, the investigations into air crashes seem to most frequently point up equipment failure (something breaks unexpectedly), then human error (in the sense of flight deck failing to respond appropriately to the warnings when things have already started to go wrong), and human error in the sense of poor maintenance by the airline.
When has there been an accident primarily due to intoxication?
In all seriousness, the investigations into air crashes seem to most frequently point up equipment failure (something breaks unexpectedly), then human error (in the sense of flight deck failing to respond appropriately to the warnings when things have already started to go wrong), and human error in the sense of poor maintenance by the airline.
When has there been an accident primarily due to intoxication?
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Shark,
"When have there ever been...."
Oh, goodness me! Where would you like me to start?
I, personally, have been witness to a few tragic events where alcohol has been the direct and sole cause.
Your post indicates that you have little or no understanding of the effects of alcohol.
Please educate yourself before you come back on here - it is not our place to drag you from such ignorance.
..or are you just trolling?
"When have there ever been...."
Oh, goodness me! Where would you like me to start?
I, personally, have been witness to a few tragic events where alcohol has been the direct and sole cause.
Your post indicates that you have little or no understanding of the effects of alcohol.
Please educate yourself before you come back on here - it is not our place to drag you from such ignorance.
..or are you just trolling?
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Stanwell,
"Oh, goodness me! Where would you like me to start?
I, personally, have been witness to a few tragic events where alcohol has been the direct and sole cause."
Well, please cite a few.
Not saying it hasn't happened, but I'd like to know about those incidents, especially on revenue passenger flights.
"Oh, goodness me! Where would you like me to start?
I, personally, have been witness to a few tragic events where alcohol has been the direct and sole cause."
Well, please cite a few.
Not saying it hasn't happened, but I'd like to know about those incidents, especially on revenue passenger flights.
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The issue is not what has happened in the past, but what could happen at the time. If the first officer became incapacitated then you are now single pilot with that operating pilot under the influence. Or what if the first officer was brand new on the line and the captain was intoxicated? There's several scenarios but just because there hasn't been a previous accident related to alcohol does not mean it's any less likely to happen than any other reason. Would you be happy if your family were down the back and it took off?
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Stanwell
Oh, goodness me! Where would you like me to start?
I, personally, have been witness to a few tragic events where alcohol has been the direct and sole cause.
I, personally, have been witness to a few tragic events where alcohol has been the direct and sole cause.
Russia is a different mind set & culture. Even including them I can not think of 1 accident that was put solely down to being drunk. Whatever it is a minuscule %.
When I 1st started commercial flying it was not un usual for capt to have drink on the last leg. "Just a sharpener old boy". We were not crashing in those days either.
However Drinking & Flying is a no no as it rather leaves the interpretation of how much open.
In my experience those caught if not alcoholics are those that misjudge the time for alcohol to clear the system. They don't purposely set out to drink & fly. & indeed probably would operate just fine. So if I smelt alcohol on a colleagues breath I would insist they went sick. & that would be an end to it, but should it happen again then the report would go in. Surely that is the human thing to do. Without compromising flight safety.
When I 1st started commercial flying it was not un usual for capt to have drink on the last leg. "Just a sharpener old boy". We were not crashing in those days either.
However Drinking & Flying is a no no as it rather leaves the interpretation of how much open.
In my experience those caught if not alcoholics are those that misjudge the time for alcohol to clear the system. They don't purposely set out to drink & fly. & indeed probably would operate just fine. So if I smelt alcohol on a colleagues breath I would insist they went sick. & that would be an end to it, but should it happen again then the report would go in. Surely that is the human thing to do. Without compromising flight safety.
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An interesting conundrum, this fluffy way of "dealing" with the problem by persuading the person to go sick.
Pilots who turn up to work under the influence almost certainly have a problem, a serious alcohol problem. People without an alcohol problem just don't live like that, and thinking you're doing anyone a kindness (least of all his future passengers) by getting him to declare a cold and go home to get pissed and fly another day is surely a pretty good way of passing the buck to someone else to do a proper job later, hopefully before he scribbles a whole airliner full of people. How would you feel if you'd persuaded him to go home and a month layer he's lying in a field burning with a clear blue flame amongst 200 bodies?
May I suggest this isn't the right way to deal with the problem at all. Send him home by all means and perhaps give him the chance not to be nailed, but there has to be official follow-up or you're partly responsible for any future accident. All airlines should have an abuse programme that is designed to cope with people like this. Use it, or regret it.
Think on it...
Pilots who turn up to work under the influence almost certainly have a problem, a serious alcohol problem. People without an alcohol problem just don't live like that, and thinking you're doing anyone a kindness (least of all his future passengers) by getting him to declare a cold and go home to get pissed and fly another day is surely a pretty good way of passing the buck to someone else to do a proper job later, hopefully before he scribbles a whole airliner full of people. How would you feel if you'd persuaded him to go home and a month layer he's lying in a field burning with a clear blue flame amongst 200 bodies?
May I suggest this isn't the right way to deal with the problem at all. Send him home by all means and perhaps give him the chance not to be nailed, but there has to be official follow-up or you're partly responsible for any future accident. All airlines should have an abuse programme that is designed to cope with people like this. Use it, or regret it.
Think on it...
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Many may not realize that they are waking up blowing over .02 BAC. The culture is wrong to make you feel like a criminal if you do, I believe the airlines would be afraid of just how many delays they would have up front if they just made all flight crew blow before each flight. They should provide compassionate assistance to those who can not manage their lives and want assistance. Most airlines under FAA rule have a 0 tolerance rule, .02 you get benched and could probably plan on the airline aggressively doing "random" test's on you. .04 and you are done.
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Stanwell
Is that your way of saying that you have no idea of the answer to the entirely reasonable question sharksandwich asked?
Or were you just trolling?
"not our place"?
On whose behalf were you purporting to speak?
I ask only because my experience of PPRuNe over many years is that the overwhelming majority of contributors respond courteously to questions and are happy to provide the answer if they know it.
I notice you live in Australia so you might like to start here:
Accidents and Incidents Involving Alcohol and Drugs in Australian Civil Aviation: 1975 - 2006
sharksandwich
No.
Over the decades since air accident investigation records have been kept, and despite the millions of miles flown every year, only a minute fraction of accidents and incidents have been found (or suspected) to have been caused or contributed to by alcohol.
FL
Please educate yourself before you come back on here - it is not our place to drag you from such ignorance.
Or were you just trolling?
"not our place"?
On whose behalf were you purporting to speak?
I ask only because my experience of PPRuNe over many years is that the overwhelming majority of contributors respond courteously to questions and are happy to provide the answer if they know it.
Oh, goodness me! Where would you like me to start?
Accidents and Incidents Involving Alcohol and Drugs in Australian Civil Aviation: 1975 - 2006
The ATSB database was searched for accidents and incidents in which either alcohol or drugs (legal or illicit) were detected post-mortem or believed to have been significant causal or contributory factors in an aviation occurrence. In that period (just over 31 years):
- of 160,338 occurrences (incident or accident), 36 were either drug or alcohol-related. ie 0.02%
- of those 36 drug/alcohol occurrences, 22 were alcohol.
- of the 8,302 accidents, 32 were either drug or alcohol related. ie 0.4%.
- 61% of drug/alcohol occurrences were in private flying operations.
- The next most common was agricultural ops at 11%.
- Drug and alcohol occurrences in the airline operations category: NONE
- The ATSB found that the results of the study were "consistent with other international experience."
sharksandwich
Have there been many accidents when intoxication has been the main factor?
Over the decades since air accident investigation records have been kept, and despite the millions of miles flown every year, only a minute fraction of accidents and incidents have been found (or suspected) to have been caused or contributed to by alcohol.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 1st Nov 2014 at 22:17.
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In the early 1950s, the Captain went to file his own York trooping Flight Plan at RAF Malta. It was customary for this task to be done by either the F/O or N/O.
The Captain was told by the Controller " YOU CAN DEPART IN EIGHT HOURS... WHEN YOU ARE SOBER..."
That was the end of his career as a Pilot. (Thereafter F/Os and N/Os had to climb the stairs as usual ! AND WE LEARNED THE LESSON, from a bad example.)
The Captain was told by the Controller " YOU CAN DEPART IN EIGHT HOURS... WHEN YOU ARE SOBER..."
That was the end of his career as a Pilot. (Thereafter F/Os and N/Os had to climb the stairs as usual ! AND WE LEARNED THE LESSON, from a bad example.)
Last edited by Linktrained; 2nd Nov 2014 at 01:30. Reason: add