CRM - Argumentative copilots
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CRM - Argumentative copilots
Hello everyone,
As the title states. I had an issue recently in flight with a copilot. He was the PF and he's coming close to upgrade. We are a small single-engine ops company.
The issue was small in regards to best flight path to take to maintain VMC while descending towards our destination. We both had different points of view but the copilot hadn't thought of a couple of 'what ifs'. As I suggested to the copilot about the other option, I also mentioned about the what ifs. Upon doing so, the copilot starting defending his decision saying he would decide what do to when he had got to that point and if it didn't work out as he had planned he would have turned around and tried my way. I felt that this was leaving matters a bit late and I tried to explain to the copilot that he needs to think far more ahead than that. We were still above sterile cockpit altitude and I was keeping an eye on the aircraft. Meanwhile, the copilot got upset (body language and tone of voice gave it away). He eventually said that we shall not talk about this anymore and we can talk about it on the ground. I said yes that's fine. On the ground, it was the same story so I gave up.
Usually as PF, I prefer asking the copilot for his/her input and then make the decision and then I give the reason. I expect the copilots to do the same while they are acting as PF. The ultimate responsibility lies with me, so if the decision they make is unsafe, I show them why and I usually try to make them come up with the better decision or I show it to them.
I have spoken to the training manager about the issue but I have not mentioned the copilot's name. We do get provided with CRM training but it is not up to the same standard as the big airlines. So, if the gentlemen/ladies who fly the jets could chip in as to how to handle these situations better, it would be much appreciated.
Kind regards
As the title states. I had an issue recently in flight with a copilot. He was the PF and he's coming close to upgrade. We are a small single-engine ops company.
The issue was small in regards to best flight path to take to maintain VMC while descending towards our destination. We both had different points of view but the copilot hadn't thought of a couple of 'what ifs'. As I suggested to the copilot about the other option, I also mentioned about the what ifs. Upon doing so, the copilot starting defending his decision saying he would decide what do to when he had got to that point and if it didn't work out as he had planned he would have turned around and tried my way. I felt that this was leaving matters a bit late and I tried to explain to the copilot that he needs to think far more ahead than that. We were still above sterile cockpit altitude and I was keeping an eye on the aircraft. Meanwhile, the copilot got upset (body language and tone of voice gave it away). He eventually said that we shall not talk about this anymore and we can talk about it on the ground. I said yes that's fine. On the ground, it was the same story so I gave up.
Usually as PF, I prefer asking the copilot for his/her input and then make the decision and then I give the reason. I expect the copilots to do the same while they are acting as PF. The ultimate responsibility lies with me, so if the decision they make is unsafe, I show them why and I usually try to make them come up with the better decision or I show it to them.
I have spoken to the training manager about the issue but I have not mentioned the copilot's name. We do get provided with CRM training but it is not up to the same standard as the big airlines. So, if the gentlemen/ladies who fly the jets could chip in as to how to handle these situations better, it would be much appreciated.
Kind regards
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Ask them "have you considered xxx"
If he still doesn't take the hint
Then suggest an appropriate course of action.
Still refuses
Then "I have control"
Document it and let the training manager deal with it.
Unless you document it, it never happened. Its more than likely your not the only Captain with concerns.
Don't get into discussions and arguments, be a leader but it not your job to sort the FO's issues out.
If he still doesn't take the hint
Then suggest an appropriate course of action.
Still refuses
Then "I have control"
Document it and let the training manager deal with it.
Unless you document it, it never happened. Its more than likely your not the only Captain with concerns.
Don't get into discussions and arguments, be a leader but it not your job to sort the FO's issues out.
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There is a reasonable and wise adage -never put the plane where your brain hasn't already been. Our companies expect us to consider the what ifs and maybes well before they might impinge on our operations. We should only be making things up on the spot if the totally unexpected occurs. May I suggest that this is the sort of plonker who will rock up at a closed airport or land on find that there is no fuel available, etc. Stay well clear.
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mad_jock and Piltdown Man, thanks for the replies. I have spoken to the training manager about it. He will get back to me as he is going to ask about it to the other Captains and see if they have had similar issues.
Safe flying and thank you once again.
Safe flying and thank you once again.
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The wisdom of inexperience.
All of us probably suffered from it to some degree, I had my "enthusiasm for over confidence" gently sorted out with " does your grand mother and eggs come to mind?".
The author was a very fine Gentleman in all respects and we became firm friends and I worked with him and learnt a lot.
Newer generations seem NOT to take advice, criticism or even instructions when needed in any other light but a " my way is the way"
For my sins I have been on retirement a School bus driver, that attitude is entrenched in 5 year olds, one who told me to get fornicated.
when the matter was discussed with his mother, she said "he is always like that!!!!"
The times they are a changing, however the Cockpit is still a place where that attitude is heading for a hard rock somewhere.
All of us probably suffered from it to some degree, I had my "enthusiasm for over confidence" gently sorted out with " does your grand mother and eggs come to mind?".
The author was a very fine Gentleman in all respects and we became firm friends and I worked with him and learnt a lot.
Newer generations seem NOT to take advice, criticism or even instructions when needed in any other light but a " my way is the way"
For my sins I have been on retirement a School bus driver, that attitude is entrenched in 5 year olds, one who told me to get fornicated.
when the matter was discussed with his mother, she said "he is always like that!!!!"
The times they are a changing, however the Cockpit is still a place where that attitude is heading for a hard rock somewhere.
Despite the 40 years of research and training that has gone into CRM it amazes me at how many F/Os still think that CRM is something the Captain is responsible for. I don't think your experience is unusual. On a similar thread but from the F/O's point of view I don't see why CRM is being referred to as 5th generation as pilots on both sides of the centre pedestal haven't come to grips with the first generation of CRM. That is communicate to the other person what you are doing and why you are doing it.
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Of course it is, but it looks to me as if 'all the boxes were ticked'. The co-pilot coming up to command can be either eager to learn or 'difficult', and the worst generally are the 'passed-over' group.
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I only ever worked for small outfits...my experience is, that with htese types (and that is with a lot of assumptions on my part since it is very hard - or rather impossible - to 'know' what type he is and you are from just a few words) you have them make their mistakes. If it was indeed a small issue and he would not accept your advice, let him go ahead and then talk about it when on the ground.
Also: quite a lot of times one does not understand how one comes across - I have people tell me that they felt I was aggressive when I was not....
Also: quite a lot of times one does not understand how one comes across - I have people tell me that they felt I was aggressive when I was not....
Last edited by fireflybob; 29th Jul 2014 at 21:13.
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Pretend you are him and write down exactly how you think he would recall the event. Approach him and explain that you would like to progress your own flying and whatever happened in the cockpit obviously made him uncomfortable and you would appreciate it if he told you exactly what it was that made that happen. See if he tells you anything useful about yourself and see how it compares to what you wrote down.
It's likely that whatever you were trying to point out was a useful and valid point. But if the person you are trying to impart some knowledge to is unwilling or unable to take it on board then forget it (unless you need to safeguard the aircraft in which case take over). Thing is, you may well learn something about yourself that helps you deal with a situation like that in a more effective way in the future. Not suggesting for a moment that you did anything wrong, far from it, but friction in the cockpit is never good and just because other bloke isn't interested in learning about himself and his craft doesn't meant you shouldn't.
It's likely that whatever you were trying to point out was a useful and valid point. But if the person you are trying to impart some knowledge to is unwilling or unable to take it on board then forget it (unless you need to safeguard the aircraft in which case take over). Thing is, you may well learn something about yourself that helps you deal with a situation like that in a more effective way in the future. Not suggesting for a moment that you did anything wrong, far from it, but friction in the cockpit is never good and just because other bloke isn't interested in learning about himself and his craft doesn't meant you shouldn't.
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By the way, the situation you describe is absolutely classic for generating difficult CRM situations. Trying to maintain VMC on a flight path probably followed by a visual approach and landing is the most difficult scenario for both pilots to share a mental model. There will be hundreds of tiny decisions taken by the handling pilot with regard to speed, descent rate, trajectory, other traffic, visibility, holes in the cloud, potential hazards, birds, engine failure options, the list is impossibly long, and it all happens far too quickly to communicate all those decisions to the other pilot before every decision is executed. How do you brief your visual approaches to each other? How do you assess in flight visibilty and proximity to clouds? Are you sharing the same techniques when you manage the energy for a visual approach? It's a very complicated scenario - far more so than the SOP, rule based environment that IFR jet flying is structured around. Good CRM is relatively easy when both blokes know exactly what's happening now, next, and what will happen if gates aren't met and limits are reached but stick those same two blokes in a cockpit and get them to fly a visual approach and you will always have differences in the debrief whether those differences be small or large. Which is another way you could approach this problem. Suggest before your flights that you briefly debrief every flight with each other. Not as an exception but as the rule. The flying you are doing is complicated and deserves it.
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In the end, it is the PIC who is responsible for the flight.
That is the PRIMARY thing on the Flightdeck.
As a result, when he/ she asks something, it HAS to be done this way, no discussion except in case flight safety is jeopardized as a result. Always BRIEFLY explain the reason for doing something different than the FO's idea.
Discuss and argue all you want on the ground not during an approach.
CRM does NOT mean no more authority gradient onboard, although some young " pilots" seem to think that way
That is the PRIMARY thing on the Flightdeck.
As a result, when he/ she asks something, it HAS to be done this way, no discussion except in case flight safety is jeopardized as a result. Always BRIEFLY explain the reason for doing something different than the FO's idea.
Discuss and argue all you want on the ground not during an approach.
CRM does NOT mean no more authority gradient onboard, although some young " pilots" seem to think that way
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Flybe pilots sacked after one called the other 'his bitch' before mid-flight bust-up | Mail Online
So just be good little bitches and do as you're told
So just be good little bitches and do as you're told
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Its the single engine which adds a new dimension to the problem you can't afford to do what I do with a weird visual approach profile of let them do it and then debrief afterwards when it invariably doesn't work out very well.
In the end, it is the PIC who is responsible for the flight.
That is the PRIMARY thing on the Flightdeck.
That is the PRIMARY thing on the Flightdeck.
At 10 miles from the airport NDB at 210 knots the captain (LH seat) asked the check captain to select Flaps 1 in preparation to be at flaps 5 and 170 knots over the NDB as per Boeing FCTM. The check captain said "No - you are too early for Flaps 1" and refused the captains request. Understandably this annoyed the captain who again politely asked for flaps 1.
Again the Indian check captain acting as PM refused to select flaps 1 and reiterated that there was no need to reduce speed yet. This further annoyed the real captain in the LH seat who was concerned that they were getting close to the NDB and needed to configure for the approach. The captain was now getting desperate at the interference of his command by the check captain PM and said "Do as you are told first officer - and give me Flaps 1 NOW."
The Indian check captain arced up and said "I am a check captain - not your first officer" The end result was a poisonous cockpit atmosphere with the captain having to resort in selecting his own flaps. The landing was completed in the dead of night in stony silence. The following day the captain submitted an incident report to the local one man Director of Civil Aviation, detailing the unfortunate pompous attitude of the newly promoted Indian check captain who had only been with the airline for less than a month. The report was way beyond the limited intellect of the local DCA who ignored the report.
A few days later the captain was in front of the chief pilot for tea and no bikkies. The chief pilot by coincidence just also happened to be the check captain in question. As I said it was a very small airline
"You have failed your route check" announced the chief pilot. The Australian captain was stunned at this news. He had been with the airline as a captain for ten years and had never struck this problem before.
"On what basis did I fail the route check" asked the captain? After all, the previous three leg sectors had gone without any problems when the check captain had occupied the jump seat to observe the crew in action. It was only on the last sector that the check captain had turfed out the first officer and decided to act as PM himself.
"How can I pass you on the route check when you write a letter like that to the DCA about me" said the chief pilot aka the check captain?
The captain thought this over carefully and said "how do I pass the route check"
"You tear up the letter and tell the DCA you made a mistake in writing it" said the chief pilot. "Then you pass the route check" he added.
Two different cultures in the same cockpit doesn't always work out especially when CRM means nothing in such an atmosphere...
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in a FO career he will fly with 1,000 different Captains and learn 1,000 new SOP's
Sounds like this Check Captain thought he was above the law and created his own SOP's e.g. flying overhead the NDB 210 Kts.
In this situation I think the PF needs to be very clear in the approach briefing about what he is going to do and at what speeds heights etc, especially with Captains that are known trouble makers.
Sure I have done approaches with an FO I know and trust very well and the approach brief can be over in a matter of seconds, but then there are these strange folk that seem to question everything you do, and start to overrule for the sake of trying to be the boss.
In every airline there is always one check Captain that is a totally pain in the arse, but that is life.
As for myself, when I was an FO and learning my trade I had a very resigned attitude towards my Captains, as nothing I said or did ever mattered to them, I learnt alot about what you shouldn't do as a Captain to promote CRM and work as a team, the end result was that my FO's would say I am the best Captain they ever flew with, not because I let them get away with murder, but because I knew how to treat them, and discuss even the smallest things with them, get them involved and make them realize I appreciate there input.
Sounds like this Check Captain thought he was above the law and created his own SOP's e.g. flying overhead the NDB 210 Kts.
In this situation I think the PF needs to be very clear in the approach briefing about what he is going to do and at what speeds heights etc, especially with Captains that are known trouble makers.
Sure I have done approaches with an FO I know and trust very well and the approach brief can be over in a matter of seconds, but then there are these strange folk that seem to question everything you do, and start to overrule for the sake of trying to be the boss.
In every airline there is always one check Captain that is a totally pain in the arse, but that is life.
As for myself, when I was an FO and learning my trade I had a very resigned attitude towards my Captains, as nothing I said or did ever mattered to them, I learnt alot about what you shouldn't do as a Captain to promote CRM and work as a team, the end result was that my FO's would say I am the best Captain they ever flew with, not because I let them get away with murder, but because I knew how to treat them, and discuss even the smallest things with them, get them involved and make them realize I appreciate there input.
the end result was that my FO's would say I am the best Captain they ever flew with,
Don't be fooled. I have known scores of captains who have been told by the first officers they are the best captains they have ever flown with. It's called boot licking flattery so you will give them more sectors.
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They mean that you are the best captain they've ever flown with on that exact date on that sector not including the other captain who is sitting in the jump seat.