Stroppy First Officers - CRM issue
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Stroppy First Officers - CRM issue
Sometimes I have to fly with one particular First Officer whose attitude borders on insubordination to say the least. He is constantly trying to take charge of the operation and seems to delight in making "put downs" which if I had made when I was an FO years ago would have resulted in the Commander reading the riot act. I have enough experience to be able to let this all flow over me but it's not a very pleasant experience and I am concerned that if he acts like this with other commanders who are less experienced there might be a flight safety issue.
This FO has other business interests (I hasten to add I have no objection to this so long as it does not interfere with his role). As soon as we reached top of climb he announced to me "If you don't mind I have some work to do" and pulled out his laptop and proceeded to write what appeared to be a report.
I think I am a pretty reasonable guy to fly with and like to have a good atmosphere on the flight deck. On the (rare) occasions where, for example, I recently stated to this FO when on base leg being radar vectored that really the max speed was 180 kt he said, in a belligerent tone, "give me a chance!".
Whenever I fly with this individual I feel that he is trying to rush me. When he tried to do this during preflight checks I did say "please don't rush me!". Later when we had finalised the fuel figure I asked him to go out to the refueller to pass same. He then said "Don't rush me!". I manage to suppress my anger and advised him that this was an order!
He has also advised me that on a recent sim check the trainer pointed out that his CRM was poor but that he did not agree with this assessment! (I have to say that I think the trainer was correct).
He does have good handling skills and a good knowledge of the company SOPs etc. But his manner is quite abrasive and sometimes off putting. I have thought of having words with my manager but I suspect that this would be to little effect.
So I make this posting here for advice and comment.
This FO has other business interests (I hasten to add I have no objection to this so long as it does not interfere with his role). As soon as we reached top of climb he announced to me "If you don't mind I have some work to do" and pulled out his laptop and proceeded to write what appeared to be a report.
I think I am a pretty reasonable guy to fly with and like to have a good atmosphere on the flight deck. On the (rare) occasions where, for example, I recently stated to this FO when on base leg being radar vectored that really the max speed was 180 kt he said, in a belligerent tone, "give me a chance!".
Whenever I fly with this individual I feel that he is trying to rush me. When he tried to do this during preflight checks I did say "please don't rush me!". Later when we had finalised the fuel figure I asked him to go out to the refueller to pass same. He then said "Don't rush me!". I manage to suppress my anger and advised him that this was an order!
He has also advised me that on a recent sim check the trainer pointed out that his CRM was poor but that he did not agree with this assessment! (I have to say that I think the trainer was correct).
He does have good handling skills and a good knowledge of the company SOPs etc. But his manner is quite abrasive and sometimes off putting. I have thought of having words with my manager but I suspect that this would be to little effect.
So I make this posting here for advice and comment.
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Based on your description, he sounds like a 
He shouldn't be allowed to pull out his laptop during a flight and get cracking with "other" work either. It's reckless behaviour. This guy has forgotten what he does for a living and should be ashamed of himself.
He's the type of chap that no matter how wrong or inaccurate he might be in something he does or says he can't help but have the last word.
Can't you just ask your crewing team to ensure they DON'T roster him with you for a while. Maybe if other Captains have a similar experience with him and make a similar request to crewing - someone from above might just take this guy to one side and have a quiet word.... ??
He shouldn't be allowed to pull out his laptop during a flight and get cracking with "other" work either. It's reckless behaviour. This guy has forgotten what he does for a living and should be ashamed of himself.
He's the type of chap that no matter how wrong or inaccurate he might be in something he does or says he can't help but have the last word.
Can't you just ask your crewing team to ensure they DON'T roster him with you for a while. Maybe if other Captains have a similar experience with him and make a similar request to crewing - someone from above might just take this guy to one side and have a quiet word.... ??
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I think the old system we had some years ago , where 3 Captains asking to be not rostered with an individual got things going . I hasten to add that the FOs could also complain and a skipper could also be carpeted.
This individuals CRM is a disgrace . If , God forbid , he becomes a skipper , will he be happy to have a clone in the RHS ? I think not - more likely a pain and a bully. I've seen them all .
Do yourself a favour ( and everyone else ) and shop anybody doing 'business' on the FD.
This individuals CRM is a disgrace . If , God forbid , he becomes a skipper , will he be happy to have a clone in the RHS ? I think not - more likely a pain and a bully. I've seen them all .
Do yourself a favour ( and everyone else ) and shop anybody doing 'business' on the FD.
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If he gets stroppy even before you take off can't you call Ops and off-load him, in the interests of flight safety? I've seen FOs who were excellent handlers, (one was ex red Arrows), but they still managed to stuff up a command course, just couldn't get the double act together of being a pilot and the flight manager. As for the laptop in the cruise, a couple of minutes maybe but any longer, No Way!
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would have resulted in the Commander reading the riot act
Something along the lines of:
If you aren't going to do your job properly, and that is the job of a first officer not the captain, then I'll get someone who will. If you don't know what your job entails then have a look in the Part A under the heading of First Officers Duties and Responsibilities. If, after educating yourself, you decide to carry on with the same attitude I can only conclude that you are deliberately acting this way. If this is the case, then it has become a flight safety issue and not only will I offload you I will file an ASR included every minute detail of your behaviour and attitude. You have 5 seconds to make up your mind.
CRM doesn't mean that you have to accept whatever attitude the F/O wants to give you. Have a talk with other Captains who have flown with this bloke to get their view and suggestions. This F/O's behaviour will be well known so its not like you are telling taleos out of school. It could be that he tries this attitude with all the Captains or it could be that he only does it with those he knows he can manipulate. Good luck.
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Works both ways .. years ago we had a rather eccentric captain, now sadly not with us - Captain Zero will be known to many readers. As a reasonably senior F/O at the time, I came to a fairly quick understanding with him regarding his numerical eccentricity ... thereafter we were good mates and I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed flying with him. Others found him a right PITA ... horses for courses, I guess.
Point is that there is naught to be achieved by sitting and sulking...if there is a problem it needs to be put on table and sorted out before it poisons the wine in the chalice.
Point is that there is naught to be achieved by sitting and sulking...if there is a problem it needs to be put on table and sorted out before it poisons the wine in the chalice.
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SBT - if, as I surmise, you do not want to go 'official' with this, I suggest you lay down your flightdeck 'policy' CLEARLY at the briefing stage. It is your flight deck to manage, and assuming you are not operating outwith SOPs and 'normal' procedures, put it to him that if he does not accept that there neeeds to be a chat with management. He has, after all, presumably managed to read Part A by now?
Certainly hearing YOUR side of it, it sounds quite unacceptable behaviour.
Certainly hearing YOUR side of it, it sounds quite unacceptable behaviour.
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I have to agree with BOAC on this one, it is up to you as the Captain to set the tone. I'll be the first to admit I have a strong personality (alpha bitch?) and I have noticed that when there is a lack of leadership in a group/situation I tend to assert myself this role, whether it is appropriate or not. Perhaps there is a bit this in play? But the laptop thing is clearly unacceptable, the pax are paying him to fly/monitor the aircraft, not tend to his personal business. (In dubious situations I would always ask myself "How would I explain this to the NTSB?" That generally provides clear path.) It is up to you as the Captain to hold him to standards.
Best of luck with this!
Best of luck with this!
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A bit off thread (apologies) - but what is wrong with using a laptop for personal business in the FD? As long as one of you is monitoring the a/c. Is it worse than, sleeping/reading a book/chatting to the crew/etc......
I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it, if it's done in the right way.
I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it, if it's done in the right way.
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Sean, I would agree with you.
If this FO's attitude was a little less abrasive, maybe it wouldn't seem so bad. A lot of Airbus manuals are on the company laptops, so using a laptop in the cruise cannot be disallowed completely. The issue is regarding personal use.
Personally, I would rather keep mentally simulated by keeping busy, even if it means using my personal laptop, whereas some guys like to stare at the instruments as though in a trance.
If this FO's attitude was a little less abrasive, maybe it wouldn't seem so bad. A lot of Airbus manuals are on the company laptops, so using a laptop in the cruise cannot be disallowed completely. The issue is regarding personal use.
Personally, I would rather keep mentally simulated by keeping busy, even if it means using my personal laptop, whereas some guys like to stare at the instruments as though in a trance.
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As a captain you may choose to be the PF on all sectors with this chap; it would cool his heels very soon, or better yet: He may call rostering and beg not to be paired with you. 
I think the issue with the laptop is the way that it was announced and assumed that this would be acceptable. It was said as though he was the Captain. This against a background of general insubordination. If an FO asks "Captain are you happy if I just look at my laptop for a few minutes?" then I would generally have no objection. So in summary it's not so much the issue of looking at a laptop it's the assumption of being permitted.
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Agree with that 100% Fireflybob. (In an earlier post I said two minutes which is unrealistic). It is all about attitude, the right one and the wrong one.
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Although I agree with the consensus so far about this individual, here's some more food for thought:
It may not be as glaringly obvious to this person, how he is perceived by others -- I believe most people would not continuously knowingly behave like that, ref various cognitive and behavioral theorems.
With respect to the cockpit authority gradient, it is every bit as much the captains job, as it is the first officers, to make individual adjustments to maintain the optimum gradient. If the FO is being overassertive/authorative, the captain should IMHO make an effort to be even clearer on who is in command. My limited experience show me that the magic gradient only very rarely "just happens" -- it takes a conscious effort. At least as an FO I try to adapt my assertiveness to the captain. Don't know how the rest of you find this idea?
I think this is a really interesting thread, and I do know that I'm putting gasoline to the fire with my above statements, but I feel that stuff like this is really at the core of CRM, and I find this a very interesting case
It may not be as glaringly obvious to this person, how he is perceived by others -- I believe most people would not continuously knowingly behave like that, ref various cognitive and behavioral theorems.
With respect to the cockpit authority gradient, it is every bit as much the captains job, as it is the first officers, to make individual adjustments to maintain the optimum gradient. If the FO is being overassertive/authorative, the captain should IMHO make an effort to be even clearer on who is in command. My limited experience show me that the magic gradient only very rarely "just happens" -- it takes a conscious effort. At least as an FO I try to adapt my assertiveness to the captain. Don't know how the rest of you find this idea?
I think this is a really interesting thread, and I do know that I'm putting gasoline to the fire with my above statements, but I feel that stuff like this is really at the core of CRM, and I find this a very interesting case
With respect to the cockpit authority gradient, it is every bit as much the captains job, as it is the first officers, to make individual adjustments to maintain the optimum gradient. If the FO is being overassertive/authorative, the captain should IMHO make an effort to be even clearer on who is in command.
Where I would differ though is that a Captain should not have to remind the FO as to who is ultimately in charge. If any FO does not understand this then I would suggest that something basic has been missed at some stage during training (whether at the basic level or later or during, for example, conversion or line training) or even selection. And please don't misunderstand me here - I would be the first to let the FO operate a sector with minimal suggestion or intervention wherever possible. Neither am I inferring that the FO does not question something which he considers is outside the SOPs or unsafe.
CRM works both ways I agree. But what this FO doesn't appreciate is the extent to which the Captain is already making "adjustments" to cope with the FOs attitude and weak CRM.
Last edited by fireflybob; 27th Apr 2009 at 21:21.
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There are people out there, first officers and captains alike, who can and do operate properly in the sim or on line checks. I guess that's why they manage to get to where they are.
However, when they are operating a normal line flight they choose to act differently and it is that attitude and approach to their job that leads to situations like the one we are discussing.
There are people out there, first officers and captains alike, who can and do operate properly in the sim or on line checks. I guess that's why they manage to get to where they are.
However, when they are operating a normal line flight they choose to act differently and it is that attitude and approach to their job that leads to situations like the one we are discussing.
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"There are two kinds of people I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures,
and the Dutch."
Apologies to most of you for the irrelevance of this quote.
and the Dutch."
Apologies to most of you for the irrelevance of this quote.
What do the other Captains think of this individual? If it is as you say it is word will get around and eventually back to management who may (if they have half a brain) invite said individual in for a "chat".