CRM - Argumentative copilots

[tommoutrie]

OP I think you may be overthinking this. Just put yourself in the other pilots position. What tone of conversation would you like to have with the other bloke before you go flying? Not sure you'd want a message about being inferior rammed down your throat. Briefings are badly named - they are not speeches delivered to the meek. Discuss the task for the day, work problems out together, ask what you've missed, avoid closed questions that shut the other bloke down, listen more than you talk.

Takes a long time to get better, and it's rarely done perfectly..

[Water Wings]

I am thinking of mentioning something along the lines of 'I will consult you for decisions at all times and I encourage you to speak up but the ultimate decision will have to be made by me as mentioned in the SOPs. You are expected to follow my command unless the safety of the aircraft is compromised'. Maybe you gents have a better way of putting it? I am trying to keep a shallow gradient where they follow my lead but at the same time are not afraid to speak up and the atmosphere is the cockpit is friendly and professional.

That's not keeping a shallow gradient, that's almost immediately steepening it up to a ridiculous level!

If you say that to a normal FO in briefing,expect him to give you the look of who the is this retard?

Not only that, all the jobs I've had, if it became known to management that that was your briefing style well, you'd be summoned for a chat rather quickly!


My last job sitting in the LHS geez, I could probably count on one hand the number of times I 'overruled' the FO (for want of a better word). And it doesn't work by shouting "no" or "I am the PIC, I make the decisions." Ever the diplomat, wording like "I have no doubt what you're doing will work but I'd just feel more comfortable if we did this" or "I've done it that way before.....f**ked it up! Lets not repeat my mistakes."

[flyboy_nz]

Cheers guys, I haven't made that briefing to any of the copilots. I probably just needed time to rethink things on my part.

OP I think you may be overthinking this. Just put yourself in the other pilots position. What tone of conversation would you like to have with the other bloke before you go flying? Not sure you'd want a message about being inferior rammed down your throat. Briefings are badly named - they are not speeches delivered to the meek. Discuss the task for the day, work problems out together, ask what you've missed, avoid closed questions that shut the other bloke down, listen more than you talk.

Takes a long time to get better, and it's rarely done perfectly..

This really hit home. Thank you

[mad_jock]

treat other people how you want treated your self is the phrase I use in command training.

If you have such a thing where you are CRMI course you might find very interesting.

[Centaurus]

Ever the diplomat, wording like "I have no doubt what you're doing will work but

Like you said, "ever the diplomat." And that means you are lying to him since you obviously have significant doubts that what he intends to do won't work. That is why you have chosen to disagree with him. Far better to cut the hypocrisy and talk straight rather than use weasel words.

[+TSRA]

I think there can be a balance between the two Centaurus. If you're up high and it can be a teaching moment, why not open with a diplomatic statement? It may drive conversation. However, if you're down in the soup with the computer calling out all sorts of numbers, I think you're right to cut to the chase and discuss it on the ground.

[haughtney1]

This is about the most interesting and informative PPrune thread I've read in a while.
Having sat in both seats, and now moving seats again shortly, it really has got the brain juices flowing.
OP, you didn't I think mention the outcome of your colleagues plan/decision i.e. did everything go according to plan and a safe operation continued VMC to touchdown etc?
Assuming as much, would it not have been worth a minute or two of reflection to get your teammate back on your side? I'm not suggesting abdicating your P1 responsibilities, merely that in a lot of cases its much more effective to nip any issues in the bud at the source with a sensible but concise de-brief. For me it might be as simple as

"hey mate/madam/dude etc etc, nice job, I now understand what you were trying to do, back there at 20 miles and 5000' I was a little unsure which is why I asked and why I made the suggestions I did. In future you might want to consider that the other guy/gal isn't on the same page as you. You and I both know that as P1 I am ultimately responsible for the operation so in that sense I'm just making sure I'm fulfilling our responsibilities to get our pax home safe and sound. All that aside, nice job again..and as its raining, you can do the walk around."

In my experience, the best operators (in both seats) I've flown with have been the ones who know when and where to fight the issues that crop up. From your description, it does sound a little like the PF was defensive due to not having as comprehensive a plan as yours, most likely though, once on the ground, instead of taking the opportunity to learn, they would have remained focussed on being upset/defensive rather than learning from your experience and more thoughtful and reasoned plan.

[greybeard]

"and as its raining, you can do the walk around."

Loved that bit