Training in the simulator for pilot incapacitation. A new approach?
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Training in the simulator for pilot incapacitation. A new approach?
Regular Pprune readers and contributors are aware of extensive discussion and therefore differing opinions, on the subject of low hour and newly graduated pilots flying as second in command on jet transports. There is no doubt that low hour pilots in the right hand seat of airliners is nothing new - and has been going on for decades, with very few serious incidents reported where the inexperience of the first officer was a major factor.
Yet, within captain ranks, there are many who harbour serious doubts whether some of the inexperienced first officrs with whom they are crewed, could confidently be relied upon to bring the aircraft home safely on the proverbial dark night in the event the captain became incapacitated.
In other words, virtually flying a big jet transport solo apart from the possibility of a flight attendant sitting in the cockpit, helping where able.
Other captains have proudly said in Pprune pages they feel perfectly confident in their airline of the first officers skill and ability to run the show solo. The captains cite as a reason, the excellent training for the high standard of their inexperienced first officers.
Nevertheless, it is a big ask to expect any first officer no matter how experienced he/she may be, to handle a single pilot operation once having dealt with the drama of an incapacitated captain. In simulator training for this event, the usual scene is the captain rolls up his eyes and dies noisily or quietly (subtle incapacitation?) and if this happens during the take off roll the first officer is supposed to play the game and take over control.
Mostly this happens close to the departure airport and the F/O does a radar vectored an ILS on automatics and lands. In all cases, the captain remains in his simulator seat, pretending to be dead or comatose. Rarely, for some reason, does the occasion call for the F/O to become incapacitated and the captain left to fly single-handed. Maybe because with certain low hour first officers the captain has to virtually operate single handed
Perhaps when incapacitation is introduced in a simulator training sequence, it would be more realistic to have the pretend deceased crew vacate his control seat and sit quietly out of sight at the back of the simulator leaving the surviving crew member (be it captain or first officer) to fly completely on his own without any other person to tune navaids, operate gear and flaps etc. The simulator instructor says nothing throughout. But one control seat remains empty...
Allowing for time constraints in the simulator, it might be worthwhile setting the aircraft at (say) 15,000 ft 45 miles from the destination airport and train the remaining pilot to get the aircraft on the ground safely. Radar vectors would make it easier to find the airport, but speed control, situational awareness and all the myriad of things a normal crew would do as part of the arrival and landing, would be done by the surviving pilot, single handed. It would be about a thirty minute training exercise that could prove a great confidence builder to the solo pilot - whether he be the captain or first officer.
Some time ago, during a type rating session with a 737 student, it was clear his tenseness was affecting his flying ability. This student was very experienced on smaller turbo-prop types but the 737 gave him the yips.
With 20 minutes left to the end of one particular session, I thought it may help if he flew with no one else in the simulator except himself.
Accordingly, the simulator was placed off motion and the instructor (self) and the other pilot, departed for a coffee break leaving the tense student to carry out solo flying in the circuit area doing two touch and go landings and a final full stop. He was going to have his hands full with flap, stab trim and gear operation operation - even though he had done touch and go's with normal crew. With the simulator off motion, he could cause no damage if he pranged. Anyway, he was given a portable "freeze" button should he need it!
He completed the circuits successfully, closed down the engines and joined is in the coffee room. I noticed then he became momentarily quite emotional for a few seconds. After quickly regaining his composure, he said thanks awfully for the solo flying and that he had felt his confidence returning with every minute of the solo flight because there was no one watching over his shoulder. In the next dual session he flew beautifully from then on. He is now a captain on a real Boeing 737 and well regarded.
It was from that experience I felt that solo flying in the simulator in terms of the incapacition exercise' would really pay off in the long run - especially where it is the inexperienced first officer carrying the can all alone. It is so important for a pilot to have self confidence because nervousness in the cockpit can ruin your day.
Yet, within captain ranks, there are many who harbour serious doubts whether some of the inexperienced first officrs with whom they are crewed, could confidently be relied upon to bring the aircraft home safely on the proverbial dark night in the event the captain became incapacitated.
In other words, virtually flying a big jet transport solo apart from the possibility of a flight attendant sitting in the cockpit, helping where able.
Other captains have proudly said in Pprune pages they feel perfectly confident in their airline of the first officers skill and ability to run the show solo. The captains cite as a reason, the excellent training for the high standard of their inexperienced first officers.
Nevertheless, it is a big ask to expect any first officer no matter how experienced he/she may be, to handle a single pilot operation once having dealt with the drama of an incapacitated captain. In simulator training for this event, the usual scene is the captain rolls up his eyes and dies noisily or quietly (subtle incapacitation?) and if this happens during the take off roll the first officer is supposed to play the game and take over control.
Mostly this happens close to the departure airport and the F/O does a radar vectored an ILS on automatics and lands. In all cases, the captain remains in his simulator seat, pretending to be dead or comatose. Rarely, for some reason, does the occasion call for the F/O to become incapacitated and the captain left to fly single-handed. Maybe because with certain low hour first officers the captain has to virtually operate single handed
Perhaps when incapacitation is introduced in a simulator training sequence, it would be more realistic to have the pretend deceased crew vacate his control seat and sit quietly out of sight at the back of the simulator leaving the surviving crew member (be it captain or first officer) to fly completely on his own without any other person to tune navaids, operate gear and flaps etc. The simulator instructor says nothing throughout. But one control seat remains empty...
Allowing for time constraints in the simulator, it might be worthwhile setting the aircraft at (say) 15,000 ft 45 miles from the destination airport and train the remaining pilot to get the aircraft on the ground safely. Radar vectors would make it easier to find the airport, but speed control, situational awareness and all the myriad of things a normal crew would do as part of the arrival and landing, would be done by the surviving pilot, single handed. It would be about a thirty minute training exercise that could prove a great confidence builder to the solo pilot - whether he be the captain or first officer.
Some time ago, during a type rating session with a 737 student, it was clear his tenseness was affecting his flying ability. This student was very experienced on smaller turbo-prop types but the 737 gave him the yips.
With 20 minutes left to the end of one particular session, I thought it may help if he flew with no one else in the simulator except himself.
Accordingly, the simulator was placed off motion and the instructor (self) and the other pilot, departed for a coffee break leaving the tense student to carry out solo flying in the circuit area doing two touch and go landings and a final full stop. He was going to have his hands full with flap, stab trim and gear operation operation - even though he had done touch and go's with normal crew. With the simulator off motion, he could cause no damage if he pranged. Anyway, he was given a portable "freeze" button should he need it!
He completed the circuits successfully, closed down the engines and joined is in the coffee room. I noticed then he became momentarily quite emotional for a few seconds. After quickly regaining his composure, he said thanks awfully for the solo flying and that he had felt his confidence returning with every minute of the solo flight because there was no one watching over his shoulder. In the next dual session he flew beautifully from then on. He is now a captain on a real Boeing 737 and well regarded.
It was from that experience I felt that solo flying in the simulator in terms of the incapacition exercise' would really pay off in the long run - especially where it is the inexperienced first officer carrying the can all alone. It is so important for a pilot to have self confidence because nervousness in the cockpit can ruin your day.
Last edited by Centaurus; 2nd Oct 2010 at 14:14.
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Not necessarily a new approach but a good one.
As a newish F/O undergoing an LPC with the flight ops director in the left seat and the senior training captain as the TRE I was feeling a small amount of pressure to perform.
Half way through the LOFT on day two the captain (FOD) got out out of his seat and cleared off 'down the back'. Hostie (TRE) dings a minute later and tells me the captain is "stuck on the bog and wont be coming back so you're on your own". Ok say I, no problems.
Cue rapid decompression, radio failure, multiple instrument and electrical failures, autopilot failure, a fuel leak and ****ty weather (I think they didn't like me).
I managed a hand flown emergency descent, radio failure procedure into a full procedural arrival and ILS to minima and a go around into the full procedural NDB/DME approach to landing using the opposite side instruments whilst trying not to run out of fuel and doing my own checklists. And then an APU fire on the roll out leading to an emergency evacuation.
Didn't do too badly for an 800 hour wonder but would I have had the confidence to do all that I needed to do if the FOD was still in his seat watching every little thing I did? Nope. Would I have the confidence to do it now? Yes. It was bloody hard work and I was sweating like a pig but it was a great lesson and did my confidence a world of good.
As a newish F/O undergoing an LPC with the flight ops director in the left seat and the senior training captain as the TRE I was feeling a small amount of pressure to perform.
Half way through the LOFT on day two the captain (FOD) got out out of his seat and cleared off 'down the back'. Hostie (TRE) dings a minute later and tells me the captain is "stuck on the bog and wont be coming back so you're on your own". Ok say I, no problems.
Cue rapid decompression, radio failure, multiple instrument and electrical failures, autopilot failure, a fuel leak and ****ty weather (I think they didn't like me).
I managed a hand flown emergency descent, radio failure procedure into a full procedural arrival and ILS to minima and a go around into the full procedural NDB/DME approach to landing using the opposite side instruments whilst trying not to run out of fuel and doing my own checklists. And then an APU fire on the roll out leading to an emergency evacuation.
Didn't do too badly for an 800 hour wonder but would I have had the confidence to do all that I needed to do if the FOD was still in his seat watching every little thing I did? Nope. Would I have the confidence to do it now? Yes. It was bloody hard work and I was sweating like a pig but it was a great lesson and did my confidence a world of good.
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Not new at all - its been done by offshore helicopter operators for years as a control in their safety case to the incapacitation hazard and now many heli operators are building their own sim complexes it will only increase.
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Cue rapid decompression, radio failure, multiple instrument and electrical failures, autopilot failure, a fuel leak and ****ty weather (I think they didn't like me).
I managed a hand flown emergency descent, radio failure procedure into a full procedural arrival and ILS to minima and a go around into the full procedural NDB/DME approach to landing using the opposite side instruments whilst trying not to run out of fuel and doing my own checklists. And then an APU fire on the roll out leading to an emergency evacuation.
I managed a hand flown emergency descent, radio failure procedure into a full procedural arrival and ILS to minima and a go around into the full procedural NDB/DME approach to landing using the opposite side instruments whilst trying not to run out of fuel and doing my own checklists. And then an APU fire on the roll out leading to an emergency evacuation.
Time and again I hear of instructors who delight in introducing multiple systems emergencies during a simulator session and some unfortunate pilot has to wear this unmitigated rubbish for two hours until coffee time. Then gets his ears bashed for another hour at debriefing on what the instructor thinks the pilot should have done.
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Perhaps when incapacitation is introduced in a simulator training sequence, it would be more realistic to have the pretend deceased crew vacate his control seat and sit quietly out of sight at the back of the simulator leaving the surviving crew member (be it captain or first officer) to fly completely on his own without any other person to tune navaids, operate gear and flaps etc.
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Centurus
It is sad that clearly many instructors in the airline industry fail to understand what 'facilitation' is. Have they actually done CRM Facilitators courses or are they reserved in airlines simply for those running group hug CRM ground training?
While UofT has failed tp grasp the main concepts of Hazard and Effect management and SMS, TEM is asctually a good stepping stone to a proper risk based approach.
Markhg
The cockpit doors are clearly a factor that make this extremely difficult - a mangement of change that the cvil aviation industry and is regulators failed to properly risk assess in the days after 911.
It is sad that clearly many instructors in the airline industry fail to understand what 'facilitation' is. Have they actually done CRM Facilitators courses or are they reserved in airlines simply for those running group hug CRM ground training?
While UofT has failed tp grasp the main concepts of Hazard and Effect management and SMS, TEM is asctually a good stepping stone to a proper risk based approach.
Markhg
The cockpit doors are clearly a factor that make this extremely difficult - a mangement of change that the cvil aviation industry and is regulators failed to properly risk assess in the days after 911.
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Didn't do too badly for an 800 hour wonder....
"...rapid decompression, radio failure, multiple instrument and electrical failures, autopilot failure, a fuel leak and ****ty weather....I managed a hand flown emergency descent, radio failure procedure into a full procedural arrival and ILS to minima and a go around into the full procedural NDB/DME approach to landing using the opposite side instruments whilst trying not to run out of fuel and doing my own checklists. And then an APU fire on the roll out leading to an emergency evacuation.
But it's OK, as there can be an element of entertainment in a rumours network.
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If you say so glueball. Afterall you were there and I wasn't which is why you are able to so say with such unshakable, imperious conviction that it's a wind up.
I sometimes wish I was an omnipresent god too then I'd know everything, like a teenage girl.
On the other hand if you think it was exaggerated then maybe you don't have the conviction to have a go yourself. Why not try it next time you go in the "horror box"? Do let us know how you get on.
Back to the thread. What do you say old son?
I sometimes wish I was an omnipresent god too then I'd know everything, like a teenage girl.
On the other hand if you think it was exaggerated then maybe you don't have the conviction to have a go yourself. Why not try it next time you go in the "horror box"? Do let us know how you get on.
Back to the thread. What do you say old son?
ILS to minima and a go around into the full procedural NDB/DME approach to landing
The peculiarities of sim weather!
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Have they actually done CRM Facilitators courses or are they reserved in airlines simply for those running group hug CRM ground training?
They take a secret delight in then pointing out at de-briefing minor "errors" of technique, judgement and application. This type of "teaching" technique is very rarely picked up in the instructor's own annual proficiency simulator check. In any case, few companies will go to the expense of have a check airman conducting an observation session for the main purpose of assessing an instructors technique. At least not once the instructor has passed his sim instructor qualification test. Like incompetent school teachers, there are also incompetent simulator instructors who seem quite oblivious to their own inadequacy.
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My captain gave me a simulated incapicitation on my schedule today from V1 and I had to take off and land with no help at all..all he did was look out the window and talk to me in the cruise that was it.
It comes to a shock when you have never done it before and you have 200 plus souls on board wanting to get to their destination.
It comes to a shock when you have never done it before and you have 200 plus souls on board wanting to get to their destination.
@punk666
simulator or real flight?
If my cpt simulates to be incapacitated after V1 (or after 80kts), I'll fly a circuit (or radar vectors) and get it back on the ground ASAP.
Not really a realistic scenario to fake his incapacitation throughout the whole flight, imho
simulator or real flight?
If my cpt simulates to be incapacitated after V1 (or after 80kts), I'll fly a circuit (or radar vectors) and get it back on the ground ASAP.
Not really a realistic scenario to fake his incapacitation throughout the whole flight, imho
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Unfortunately this was a real flight and as much as I agree that its not the best place to practice this or professional to do it with pax onboard but it caught me off gaurd and I guess thats the whole point of it because anything can happen unexpected and in the sim your briefed on it so you already expecting it at anytime.
The captain was chatting away with me and would of stepped in if things started to turn sour. Like the above poster said if this was a real situation it would of been another approach back to the airport.
I think something like this is very good experience and a good story to tell in the pub haha.
The captain was chatting away with me and would of stepped in if things started to turn sour. Like the above poster said if this was a real situation it would of been another approach back to the airport.
I think something like this is very good experience and a good story to tell in the pub haha.
It's nice practice, especially when you're not briefed. I don't agree thats it 'unprofessional' behaviour because I'm sure the capt was still watching all your moves closely. It also depends on the state of training/experience that the F/O has got. It wouldn't be very smart to do this on the first linetraining flight for example..
I would suggest it was very unprofessional as it meant you could not comply with the company SOP during that flight. I am not saying that the idea does not have some merit and can build confidence, but a revenue flight is not the place to be doing that sort of thing
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John R
I would have to agree that not even briefing me on the matter is bad and also the fact that it was a revenue flight.
Im currently based out of Europe right now and the country im in dont care about health and safety or any regard to passenger comfort.
The one thing I learnt here is to keep your mouth shut or you will end up in some serious trouble because the country is corrupt as!!!
If I felt that I wasnt able to handle it I would of clearly stated it to him and then I would of left the company soon after. But on the other hand it wasnt exactly a big safety risk when at 400 feet you have the auto pilot in and runway heading.
Some people may agree its a bad idea and some may agree its a good idea. I personally think it was very good experience and something I can tell people in discussions like this..but im hoping it doesnt come all the time.
Im currently based out of Europe right now and the country im in dont care about health and safety or any regard to passenger comfort.
The one thing I learnt here is to keep your mouth shut or you will end up in some serious trouble because the country is corrupt as!!!
If I felt that I wasnt able to handle it I would of clearly stated it to him and then I would of left the company soon after. But on the other hand it wasnt exactly a big safety risk when at 400 feet you have the auto pilot in and runway heading.
Some people may agree its a bad idea and some may agree its a good idea. I personally think it was very good experience and something I can tell people in discussions like this..but im hoping it doesnt come all the time.
