Polish Presidential Flight Crash Thread
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definitely УХОД (Go Around) will not produce any signal if one don't press ГЛИССАДА (glidepass) button before and if ABSU isn't in LANDING mode.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
janeczku
IF this is what happened then these guys would have to be complete idiots, because GOAROUND has immediate effect of pushing throttle levers to «Взлетный режим» (takeoff). See Figure 44 of the report – immediate reaction. Yes, the plane still sinks about 25 meters before it stops descending, but for this to happen the engines have to be at nearly full power for these 25 meters.
As a matter of fact, if I am reading the Tu-154 instructions correctly, in automatic mode pushing the throttles to takeoff position has the same effect as pushing the goaround button. It's hard not to notice this not working and not pushing the levers if that didn't work, especially since it does the same thing as pressing the goaround button, I think.
Maybe I am biased against the politicians but to me meddling/confusing captain authority in the cockpit is the more likely possibility.
After pressing the button, as no decreasing altitude callouts were made for next 8 seconds, they thought everything was going well and the GA was about to happen, so why not take advantage by looking out the window checking out the fine scenery, instead of checking boring instruments.
As a matter of fact, if I am reading the Tu-154 instructions correctly, in automatic mode pushing the throttles to takeoff position has the same effect as pushing the goaround button. It's hard not to notice this not working and not pushing the levers if that didn't work, especially since it does the same thing as pressing the goaround button, I think.
Maybe I am biased against the politicians but to me meddling/confusing captain authority in the cockpit is the more likely possibility.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
janeczku the only thing that doesn't add is that IF goaround programm stars, first thing it does is move thrust levers to FULL THROTTLE in about 1 sec AND lights УХОД at pannel cluster.
SadPole I checked my bad english too long so yo are first. 
And yes, you are right, if ABSU is in AUTOLANDING state (and this mean ГЛИССАДА must be activated), then full throttle makes same effect as pressing any of three УХОД buttons.
The only thing I can consider, that possibly ANY signal from steering column are recorded by FDR.
SadPole I checked my bad english too long so yo are first. And yes, you are right, if ABSU is in AUTOLANDING state (and this mean ГЛИССАДА must be activated), then full throttle makes same effect as pressing any of three УХОД buttons.
The only thing I can consider, that possibly ANY signal from steering column are recorded by FDR.
"102", the second Tu-154M was flying today and was filmed from the ground by the military personel. My guess is, they were working on the GA problem, but again, it's only a guess.
Polish report to be published in February. Transcripts of XUBS ATC communication with their superiors to be published probably next week. So says the news.
Arrakis
Polish report to be published in February. Transcripts of XUBS ATC communication with their superiors to be published probably next week. So says the news.
Arrakis
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
janeczku
Not really. He says "Odchodzimy" "Goaround" at 10:40:51 but the throttles are not pushed until 10:40:56 ++ (Figure 49 of the report). Unless they thought they were flying a glider, no go-around of any kind can happen until engines are reved up, I think.
This is why it more sounds like Odchodzimy??? "Go Around????" – in Polish the only difference would be completely different intonation. And nobody answers because PIC thinks the General is to make the call and vice versa.
Then the Navigator calls out 90m, the FO is like:
"Wait a minute, i thought we were ascending".
In a matter of only 0.9 seconds the FO called "We are leaving". Which is different from the "Go Around!" he called before:
"Wait a minute, i thought we were ascending".
In a matter of only 0.9 seconds the FO called "We are leaving". Which is different from the "Go Around!" he called before:
This is why it more sounds like Odchodzimy??? "Go Around????" – in Polish the only difference would be completely different intonation. And nobody answers because PIC thinks the General is to make the call and vice versa.
And yes, you are right, if ABSU is in AUTOLANDING state (and this mean ГЛИССАДА must be activated), then full throttle makes same effect as pressing any of three УХОД buttons.
The only thing I can consider, that possibly ANY signal from steering column are recorded by FDR.
The only thing I can consider, that possibly ANY signal from steering column are recorded by FDR.
That´s how i understand the report.
franzl
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In compliance with Section 8.8.2 (4) of the FCOM “Check of engagement and
disengagement of the Go-around mode” the crew could arm the Go-Around mode by pressing
the APPROACH and GLIDE SLOPE buttons on autopilot control panel. It should be noted that
these actions are only prescribed to be performed on the ground during the preflight inspection
of the autopilot and cannot be performed in flight according to the FCOM. Without meeting this
condition automatic go-around was impossible. However, the APPROACH and GLIDE SLOPE
buttons as well as the GO-AROUND button were not used by the crew in the accident flight. The
flight recorders did not record relative callouts or data.
Note: On April 6, 201045 during an ILS approach at Warsaw airport this
aircraft made an automatic go-around. The FDR recorded the
relative on/off-signals (autoflight modes): Approach, Glide slope,
and Go-around (Figure 44).
disengagement of the Go-around mode” the crew could arm the Go-Around mode by pressing
the APPROACH and GLIDE SLOPE buttons on autopilot control panel. It should be noted that
these actions are only prescribed to be performed on the ground during the preflight inspection
of the autopilot and cannot be performed in flight according to the FCOM. Without meeting this
condition automatic go-around was impossible. However, the APPROACH and GLIDE SLOPE
buttons as well as the GO-AROUND button were not used by the crew in the accident flight. The
flight recorders did not record relative callouts or data.
Note: On April 6, 201045 during an ILS approach at Warsaw airport this
aircraft made an automatic go-around. The FDR recorded the
relative on/off-signals (autoflight modes): Approach, Glide slope,
and Go-around (Figure 44).
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kulverstukas
I checked both English and Russian versions. Taken as written, they say GoAround button was not used therefore not pressed. If they did not mean button/pressed, they could have said goaround mode not used. That's the passage I based my original statement on.
I tried to further trace the connections in the ABSU – when through about 5 different panels/interconnection blocks. It is extremely frustrating because there is no cross reference. So – you find a wire, look for it on one of 6 interconnection diagrams, each with several hundred wires, it goes to another block. You have to look for that block in 1000 pages of the documentation.
I gave up when one interconnection diagram had all the wires of a module EXCEPT for the single one I was looking for, which means they either made a mistake or for convenience drew that single one on another sheet because it was connected there. (It's so NICE today when one has searchable documentations. You can do such work in a few seconds).
But, all in all, I don’t think it matters that much because even if they tried to press that button when "Odchodzimy!/?" command was spoken, they then did NOTHING for the next ~6 seconds.
I checked both English and Russian versions. Taken as written, they say GoAround button was not used therefore not pressed. If they did not mean button/pressed, they could have said goaround mode not used. That's the passage I based my original statement on.
I tried to further trace the connections in the ABSU – when through about 5 different panels/interconnection blocks. It is extremely frustrating because there is no cross reference. So – you find a wire, look for it on one of 6 interconnection diagrams, each with several hundred wires, it goes to another block. You have to look for that block in 1000 pages of the documentation.
I gave up when one interconnection diagram had all the wires of a module EXCEPT for the single one I was looking for, which means they either made a mistake or for convenience drew that single one on another sheet because it was connected there. (It's so NICE today when one has searchable documentations. You can do such work in a few seconds).
But, all in all, I don’t think it matters that much because even if they tried to press that button when "Odchodzimy!/?" command was spoken, they then did NOTHING for the next ~6 seconds.
See below, out of the report. The crew decided to do a a go around in autoflightmode. But that would not be possible due to lack of glideslope signal.
in combination with this interesting and plausible thought of
If the last part could be confirmed by somebody?
franzl
At 10:32:56 while approaching the base turn the PIC took the following decision: “We’ll make an approach. In case of failure we’ll go around in autoflight mode”.
In compliance with that decision at 10:34:20 after establishing on the circle altitude of 500 m the crew engaged the autothrottle. By taking this decision the crew demonstrated low knowledge of the aircraft equipment. In fact Tu-154M does allow going around in the autoflight mode. The appropriate
procedures are written in Section 8.8.2 (4) (d) of the FCOM. The PIC must make sure that:
− the ROLL and PITCH switches (Panel 46) are on;
− the GLIDE SLOPE light on autopilot control panel is on,
and then press the GO AROUND button.
The mentioned procedure assumes that a mandatory condition for arming the autoflight go-around is active Glide slope mode used for autoflight or flight director approach in combination with Approach mode. It was not possible to
use this mode when landing at Smolensk "Severny" Airdrome due to the absence of appropriate ground based navaids (ILS).
In compliance with that decision at 10:34:20 after establishing on the circle altitude of 500 m the crew engaged the autothrottle. By taking this decision the crew demonstrated low knowledge of the aircraft equipment. In fact Tu-154M does allow going around in the autoflight mode. The appropriate
procedures are written in Section 8.8.2 (4) (d) of the FCOM. The PIC must make sure that:
− the ROLL and PITCH switches (Panel 46) are on;
− the GLIDE SLOPE light on autopilot control panel is on,
and then press the GO AROUND button.
The mentioned procedure assumes that a mandatory condition for arming the autoflight go-around is active Glide slope mode used for autoflight or flight director approach in combination with Approach mode. It was not possible to
use this mode when landing at Smolensk "Severny" Airdrome due to the absence of appropriate ground based navaids (ILS).
janeczku
The report prooves that the activation of the GO-Around is recorded on the FDR on a ILS guided approach, not the push of the button! But in our case the GO-Around mode was not armed in the first place and couldnt be activated by the push of the button.
So most probably, even if the crew pushed the button, this wouldnt have been recorded on the FDR.
The report prooves that the activation of the GO-Around is recorded on the FDR on a ILS guided approach, not the push of the button! But in our case the GO-Around mode was not armed in the first place and couldnt be activated by the push of the button.
So most probably, even if the crew pushed the button, this wouldnt have been recorded on the FDR.
franzl
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Polish accreditee to MAK said in interview to Polish TV today, that for now they simply don't know whether pushing GO AROUND ,without having programmed approach in advanced (literally he said about "ILS approaches"), will leave a mark on FDR.
And to determine this, they are conducting these flights with TU154M-102.
As for full throttle:
In about middle of this thread someone posted page from TU154 instruction describing GO AROUND engine inertia with regard to descend velocity. It stated (if I remember correctly) 50m descend at 6m/s. And it's consistent with available data. FO said "Odchodzimy" at 80m, they started gaining altitude at 10-20m.
Wouldn't that be consistent with data from instruction?
PS. Unfortunetely in Poland nobody mentions publishing FDR, discussion mostly revolves around publishing new versions of CVR transcripts. Apparently we were able to recover almost all words from it, as opposed to Russian work. And in the same interview Mr Klich admitted, that they recognized PIC voice giving "go around" command, which FO confirmed.
And to determine this, they are conducting these flights with TU154M-102.
As for full throttle:
In about middle of this thread someone posted page from TU154 instruction describing GO AROUND engine inertia with regard to descend velocity. It stated (if I remember correctly) 50m descend at 6m/s. And it's consistent with available data. FO said "Odchodzimy" at 80m, they started gaining altitude at 10-20m.
Wouldn't that be consistent with data from instruction?
PS. Unfortunetely in Poland nobody mentions publishing FDR, discussion mostly revolves around publishing new versions of CVR transcripts. Apparently we were able to recover almost all words from it, as opposed to Russian work. And in the same interview Mr Klich admitted, that they recognized PIC voice giving "go around" command, which FO confirmed.
But, all in all, I don’t think it matters that much because even if they tried to press that button when "Odchodzimy!/?" command was spoken, they then did NOTHING for the next ~6 seconds.
franzl
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RetiredF4
Yes the report says that they planned to do that, but then it says that they didn't even do that:
Page 104
Combined with the clear statement that the GoAround button was not used, I think one can say they believe nobody tried to push the goaround button.
“We’ll make an approach. In case of failure we’ll go around in autoflight mode”
Page 104
These two causes (lack of new clear plan of action and psychological clash) explain the passive behavior of the PIC on final (lack of reaction to the high vertical speed, to radio altimeter information called out by the navigator, to TAWS "PULL UP, PULL UP" warning, to the co-pilot's callout "Go around", and to the Controller's instruction to terminate descent "Horizon, 101!") and his late and inadequate recovery actions.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Combined with the clear statement that the GoAround button was not used, I think one can say they believe nobody tried to push the goaround button.
Last edited by janeczku; 16th Jan 2011 at 22:44.
Shortly, according to one of the Smolensk forum members, when there is no ILS (an thus no automatic GA), pushing the GA button is not recorded in any way by the FDR. Only the automatic GA output signal is recorded. No ILS, button was not armed and thus nothing recorded, even if pressed.
Arrakis
Arrakis
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I found a collection of comments made by Polish military and commercial pilots in various forums, that i would like to share with you. Original source
On the failed manual go-around
On the (in)ability of the crew to do a 2NDB approach
Further evidence that Polish AF special regiment pilots werent trained sufficiently for NDB approaches
Hillarious!
And this is from ... wikipedia!
On the failed manual go-around
"I am devastated as a pilot and a Pole. For many critical seconds the pilot was "wrestling" with the autopilot, while "the plane was flying" as used to say my instructor Col. M. It would have been sufficient to just execute the procedure that follows the instruction to "go around". Firewall throttle, level, climb... Those are things which are learned already in the basic training for the private pilot license! First full throttle, then pull the stick! ... But he went on, and went, and nothing ... Or maybe he did not want to make a "go around" just-level, and rat crawl to the runway?"
"The crew flew exclusivly to airports with ILS. There is no confirmation as to when the crew members performed a 2NDB approach the last time or if they ever did that kind of approach at all onboard the TU-154."
"Arthur Wosztyl, when describing his landing in Smolensk on JAK-40 [This is the A/C that landed in Smolensk shortly before the fog], said he noticed, that the ARK radiokompass [ADF] didnt give a clear indication, as the needle on the main navigation display was jumping within 10 degress from left to right. He testified that this would be << evidence of a faulty operation of beacons >>. You could draw the conclusion from this statement, that the JAK-pilot didnt know a thing about NDB. It seems as if the behavior described is quite normal at time of close approach to an NDB beacon. This is further evidence of the level of training of the pilots."
And this is from ... wikipedia!
"As an aircraft nears an NDB station, the ADF becomes increasingly sensitive, small lateral deviations result in large deflections of the needle which sometimes shows erratic left/right oscillations."
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 54
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is what the TAWS and the autopilot might have thought during the last seconds:
YouTube - Sugababes-push the button lyrics
I'm busy throwing hints that he keeps missing
Don't have to think about it
I don't wanna crash
and everything around it but he's too distant
I wanna feel his power
I can't resist it
I know my hidden looks can be deceiving
But how obvious should the data be?
I was taken by the early conversation piece
And I really like the way that he respects me
I've been waiting patiently for him to come and do it
I wonder if he knows that he can say it and I'm with it
I knew I had my mind made up from the very beginning
Catch this opportunity so you and me could live on
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
I'm busy showing him what he's been missing
I'm kind of showing off for his full attention
My pilot skills has got him in the new dimension
I'm ready to do something to relieve this mission
After waiting patiently for him to come and do it
He came on through and asked me if I wanted to get with him
I knew I had my mind made up from the very beginning
Don't miss this opportunity so you and me can live on
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
I've been dropping so many hints
You’re still not getting it
Now that you’ve heard everything I have to say
Where we gonna go from here?
After waiting patiently for him to come and do it
He came over and asked me if I wanted to get with him
I knew I had my mind made up from the very beginning
Don't miss this opportunity so you and me can live on
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
(…)
YouTube - Sugababes-push the button lyrics
I'm busy throwing hints that he keeps missing
Don't have to think about it
I don't wanna crash
and everything around it but he's too distant
I wanna feel his power
I can't resist it
I know my hidden looks can be deceiving
But how obvious should the data be?
I was taken by the early conversation piece
And I really like the way that he respects me
I've been waiting patiently for him to come and do it
I wonder if he knows that he can say it and I'm with it
I knew I had my mind made up from the very beginning
Catch this opportunity so you and me could live on
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
I'm busy showing him what he's been missing
I'm kind of showing off for his full attention
My pilot skills has got him in the new dimension
I'm ready to do something to relieve this mission
After waiting patiently for him to come and do it
He came on through and asked me if I wanted to get with him
I knew I had my mind made up from the very beginning
Don't miss this opportunity so you and me can live on
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
I've been dropping so many hints
You’re still not getting it
Now that you’ve heard everything I have to say
Where we gonna go from here?
After waiting patiently for him to come and do it
He came over and asked me if I wanted to get with him
I knew I had my mind made up from the very beginning
Don't miss this opportunity so you and me can live on
If you're not ready to land boy
You'd better push the button and let me know
Before I get the wrong idea and go
You're gonna miss the plane that I control
(…)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Poland, Zyrardow
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could someone comment on this?
Why only on the ground?
In compliance with Section 8.8.2 (4) of the FCOM “Check of engagement and
disengagement of the Go-around mode” the crew could arm the Go-Around mode by pressing
the APPROACH and GLIDE SLOPE buttons on autopilot control panel. It should be noted that
these actions are only prescribed to be performed on the ground during the preflight inspection
of the autopilot and cannot be performed in flight according to the FCOM.
disengagement of the Go-around mode” the crew could arm the Go-Around mode by pressing
the APPROACH and GLIDE SLOPE buttons on autopilot control panel. It should be noted that
these actions are only prescribed to be performed on the ground during the preflight inspection
of the autopilot and cannot be performed in flight according to the FCOM.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Did you read the preceding paragraph of the report?
At 10:32:56 while approaching the base turn the PIC took the following decision: “We’ll make an approach. In case of failure we’ll go around in autoflight mode”. In compliance with that decision at 10:34:20 after establishing on the circle altitude of 500 m the crew engaged the autothrottle. By taking this decision the crew demonstrated low knowledge of the aircraft equipment. In fact Tu-154M does allow going around in the autoflight mode. The appropriate procedures are written in Section 8.8.2 (4) (d) of the FCOM. The PIC must make sure that:
− the ROLL and PITCH switches (Panel 46) are on;
− the GLIDE SLOPE light on autopilot control panel is on,
and then press the GO AROUND button. The mentioned procedure assumes that a mandatory condition for arming the autoflight go-around is active Glide slope mode used for autoflight or flight director approach in combination with Approach mode. It was not possible to use this mode when landing at Smolensk "Severny" Airdrome due to the absence of appropriate ground based navaids (ILS).
− the ROLL and PITCH switches (Panel 46) are on;
− the GLIDE SLOPE light on autopilot control panel is on,
and then press the GO AROUND button. The mentioned procedure assumes that a mandatory condition for arming the autoflight go-around is active Glide slope mode used for autoflight or flight director approach in combination with Approach mode. It was not possible to use this mode when landing at Smolensk "Severny" Airdrome due to the absence of appropriate ground based navaids (ILS).